Goodbye to autoracks?

[rrnut282]

Nevermind, I see Tree beat me to it on a page that did not display.  

Enclosed auto-racks were more a response to an idiot with a brick on an overpass than they were to weather related damage claims.

CMStPnP

 

 

You know I am surprised after transporting them in enclosed autocarriers they then store them in lots open to the weather outdoors at the transload facility subject to hail and all sorts of weather.    You would think it would be more land use efficient to build a large sheltered parking garage but probably also very much more expensive.

 

[SD60MAC9500]

One job I had fresh out of HS was as a porter for a company called Cordin Transport. We handled lease turn in vehicles. The yard was located in Dearborn across from Fords Rouge Complex. They had a ramp consisting of two tracks. We could fit possibly 12 racks at the most. I’ll never forget CN was still using a group of old Whitehead and Kales open racks to haul the used vehicles. Mind you this was in 2000. I had figured those would have been long retired. Which they finally did around 2003-2004?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

One of the benefits of growing up near an auto assembly plant (Ford in Chicago) is seeing the autos moved from the plant to the loading area (truck and autorack). Company drivers would drive the vehicles to the loading area owned and operated by the trucking firm and get a ride back to the plant in trucking company van. 

[Overmod]

Backshop

Wrong, Balt is correct. I know people who do it in New Boston, MI.

Interesting point he makes about precisely when the GM employees 'handed over' the automobiles to be physically driven onto the cars.   My knowledge is only that obtained from various films and pictures, most associated with manufacturers like GM doing loading near their plants, and (1) they don't explicitly show a change in drivers, and (2) they show a great deal of 'enthusiasm' and often a P.J.O'Rourke fastest-car-in-the-world attitude for the actual part on the ramps and railroad cars.  I certainly apologize if the 'continuity' from the GM assembly-line end to car is not in fact done by one person; it did, and does, seem likely to me that different people would do the actual driving on and off vs. the people who handled the physical securement, etc. on the cars.

The point should be better made, though, as you point out, that loading at a third-party facility would be likely be done by that facility's personnel, not the 'manufacturer' (or representatives of another owning or leasing company).  In my opinion this is no different from having specialized yard drivers for intermodal transport as compared to having road drivers do specialized spotting or driving onto or off equipment.

This leads me to wonder how the driving into and out of those GM Cadillac 'containers' was handled.  That was certainly a specialized skill!  (As was what I've seen of trying to get the result, hanging in the air and swinging in various ways, onto a rail car!!)

[BaltACD]

Overmod

I don't think I've ever heard of them being 'other' than employees of whoever is responsible for owning the cars at that point.  For GM that would be GM employees, probably with some agreement with the rail car owner and facility management.  
Some of them clearly carrying that ol' Malbone Street professional production-line attitude over into git 'r dun cowboying...

I worked Penn Mary Yard in Baltimore when the GM Baltimore Assembly Plant was constructing Camaro's and Firebirds; Penn Mary was the B&O serving yard for the plant.  GM personnel were the ones moving the vehicles from the end of the assembly line to a staging lot on the plants's property prior to them being loaded out - both truck and railcars.  All I can say is the some buyers were getting vehicles that had been 'rode hard and put away wet' - from the sounds of 'happy tires' (Skip Barber Racing School saying - 'A squeeling tire is a happy tire') and the tire smoke from unhappy tires as well as the audible 'high revs' from the exhaust.

[Backshop]

Overmod

 

 

JPS1

Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars? 

 

 

I don't think I've ever heard of them being 'other' than employees of whoever is responsible for owning the cars at that point.  For GM that would be GM employees, probably with some agreement with the rail car owner and facility management.  
Some of them clearly carrying that ol' Malbone Street professional production-line attitude over into git 'r dun cowboying...

 

 

Wrong, Balt is correct. I know people who do it in New Boston, MI.

[BaltACD]

JPS1

Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars?  Would it be railroad employees or contractors?

At the Distribution Center location, Distribution Center employees are the drivers and make the DC liable for any damage they create.

In the framework of CSX, TDSI (the DC operator) is a wholely own subsidiary and works to its own profit and loss statements with its own employees.

[Overmod]

JPS1

Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars? 

I don't think I've ever heard of them being 'other' than employees of whoever is responsible for owning the cars at that point.  For GM that would be GM employees, probably with some agreement with the rail car owner and facility management.  
Some of them clearly carrying that ol' Malbone Street professional production-line attitude over into git 'r dun cowboying...

[JPS1]

Who drives the cars onto and off the auto rack cars?  Would it be railroad employees or contractors?

[tree68]

CMStPnP

  You would think it would be more land use efficient to build a large sheltered parking garage but probably also very much more expensive.

All you need to do at a storage facility is keep them far enough from the fence to prevent a thrown rock from reaching them.  (A gun would be a different issue).  Lighting and a human presence (security patrols) also minimize the risk.  

Insurance probably covers the "Acts of God."

On the rails, you have to protect them from thrown and dropped objects, not to mention access with rattlecans.  And parts thieves. 

Years ago, police in the village where I lived had to make sure they got out and checked the cars carefully in  a lot where local car dealers stored their excess stock.  Tire thieves would jack up the cars, steal the tires, then leave the cars on blocks so it appeared that they were all the same level...

[Ajsik]

CMStPnP

There is a huge auto transload facility here in Dallas on the Texas Eagle route just East of Dallas.    Combo auto transload and intermodal container facility for UP.   Have to hand it to UP they are not shy about consumming large tracts of land that facility has to be a few square miles minimum.     In Wisconsin there is one near the former 7-mile Fair location and I think it belongs to UP as well (former C&NW)    Massive lot of cars and a few feeder tracks for the autoracks.

 

The site near 7-Mile Fair is an auto auction business with no rail service.

[Bruce D Gillings]

CMStPnP

 

 

JPS1

I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by.  The auto racks were empty.  I believe the trains was headed to Mexico.  It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north. When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars?  Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string? 

 

 

There is a huge auto transload facility here in Dallas on the Texas Eagle route just East of Dallas.    Combo auto transload and intermodal container facility for UP.   Have to hand it to UP they are not shy about consumming large tracts of land that facility has to be a few square miles minimum.     In Wisconsin there is one near the former 7-mile Fair location and I think it belongs to UP as well (former C&NW)    Massive lot of cars and a few feeder tracks for the autoracks.

 

 

Mesquite is approximately 0.45 square miles total for IM and Vehicles (+/- 288 acres).  The IM is almost all domestic (most international goes through Dallas Intermodal Terminal in Wilmer). 

[CMStPnP]

BaltACD

I have no real idea of how much land area the CSX auto facilities at Twin Oaks, PA and Jessup, MD occupy - what I do know is that the trains that serice those facilities give them 90 loaded rail cars a day and needless to say release the same number of rail cars empty on a daily basis.  With 10 to 18 vehicles per rail car, that is a whole lot of vehicles. 

You know I am surprised after transporting them in enclosed autocarriers they then store them in lots open to the weather outdoors at the transload facility subject to hail and all sorts of weather.    You would think it would be more land use efficient to build a large sheltered parking garage but probably also very much more expensive.

[BaltACD]

CMStPnP

 

JPS1

I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by.  The auto racks were empty.  I believe the trains was headed to Mexico.  It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north. When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars?  Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string?  

There is a huge auto transload facility here in Dallas on the Texas Eagle route just East of Dallas.    Combo auto transload and intermodal container facility for UP.   Have to hand it to UP they are not shy about consumming large tracts of land that facility has to be a few square miles minimum.     In Wisconsin there is one near the former 7-mile Fair location and I think it belongs to UP as well (former C&NW)    Massive lot of cars and a few feeder tracks for the autoracks.

I have no real idea of how much land area the CSX auto facilities at Twin Oaks, PA and Jessup, MD occupy - what I do know is that the trains that serice those facilities give them 90 loaded rail cars a day and needless to say release the same number of rail cars empty on a daily basis.  With 10 to 18 vehicles per rail car, that is a whole lot of vehicles.

[CMStPnP]

JPS1

I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by.  The auto racks were empty.  I believe the trains was headed to Mexico.  It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north. When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars?  Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string? 

There is a huge auto transload facility here in Dallas on the Texas Eagle route just East of Dallas.    Combo auto transload and intermodal container facility for UP.   Have to hand it to UP they are not shy about consumming large tracts of land that facility has to be a few square miles minimum.     In Wisconsin there is one near the former 7-mile Fair location and I think it belongs to UP as well (former C&NW)    Massive lot of cars and a few feeder tracks for the autoracks.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The drivers of the autos have to watch their speed, too.  I can remember when the first loading ramp was built behind the South Shore embankment in Hegewisch, we could periodically hear reminders over the PA to slow down to about 5 MPH.

[SD70Dude]

 

BaltACD

Crews spotting up the unloading locations switch railcars so that groups of railcars have their vehicles facing in the same direction and also to have tri-levels together in a cut and bi-levels together in a cut.  Depending upon how many different loading locations output end up at a particular unloading location - there can be a whole lot of switching involved in setting the ramp up for unloading.

You can also split cuts of cars that are in the same track and put the ramp in between them if needed. 

Extra handbrakes are required on autoracks when they are spotted in the loading or unloading facilities, to eliminate slack-related movement, which could happen either from the air brakes leaking off or due to vibration from the vehicles driving through the railcars.

[BaltACD]

JPS1

I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by.  The auto racks were empty.  I believe the trains was headed to Mexico.  It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north.

When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars?  Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string? 

The end doors get opened and bridge plates are put in place to allow the gap between railcars to be negotiated by vehicles which can drive through the railcars.

At loading and unloading locations the track lengths are normally 10 cars or less in length.  Vehicles are driven on in the forward direction and also driven off in the forward direction.  

Unloading locations have multiple moveable ramp appratus that can be moved where necessary to permit the unloading of vehicles from any deck of a bi or tri level rack.

Crews spotting up the unloading locations switch railcars so that groups of railcars have their vehicles facing in the same direction and also to have tri-levels together in a cut and bi-levels together in a cut.  Depending upon how many different loading locations output end up at a particular unloading location - there can be a whole lot of switching involved in setting the ramp up for unloading.

[Backshop]

They just open up the end doors, lower the ramps and drive straight through multiple cars.

Another thing ignored here is the injury rate among carhauler drivers.  I know at least 2 that retired due to on-job injuries.  The next time that you see a car hauler at a dealership, watch how hazardous it is to enter cars and drive them off the upper level.  If they do all the transporation of new vehicles, just think of the increase in injuries due to the greater number of trucks.

[JPS1]

I was at my favorite train watching spot today when a southbound BNSF auto rack train went by.  The auto racks were empty.  I believe the trains was headed to Mexico.  It appeared to be the same train that I saw about five days ago headed north.

When an auto rack train is loaded or unloaded, do they need to uncouple all the cars?  Or can they drive the autos through the cars from one end to another to get from or to the last car in the string? 

[n012944]

Bruce D Gillings

 

 

I still love the post about: Toyota Logistics Services awarding CSX the President's Award for Rail Logistics Excellence. 

 

 

You shouldn't.  If Toyota was truly unhappy with the railroad's services, they could have simply skipped giving out an award that year.  Its seems that they are not unhappy.

[tree68]

charlie hebdo

As long as said battery is in your device,  it's fine.  A spare must be in your carry-on. 

Yep.

[charlie hebdo]

tree68

 

 

BaltACD

I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Lithium Ion batterie fail with disaterous consequences.

 

 

If you have LI batteries and you're flying, they have to be in your carry-on.  And they aren't real fond of spares...

All high voltage batteries in cars are marked, so we don't cut the wrong ones...

 

 

As long as said battery is in your device,  it's fine.  A spare must be in your carry-on. 

https://petapixel.com/2018/05/16/tsa-battery-restrictions-clearing-up-confusion-on-flying-with-lithium-ion/

[Overmod]

BaltACD

Lithium Ion battery technology has yet to be FULLY MASTERED to be fully safe - even when the appropriate precautions have been taken.

Think about this for about 2 seconds.  We're striving for power density comparable to gasoline.  Using chemistry that reacts dramatically and pyrophorically with water, with thinner and thinner packaging and internal insulation, with runaway heating the result of even small internal overvoltage or mechanical damage... including excessive current draw into shorts.

I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Lithium Ion batteries fail with disastrous consequences.

It is not hard to find them.  There are even YouTube videos for the explosion-porn devotees... some of them masquerading as 'science experiments' of course, just like gratuitous carnivorous death or vicious internal parasites are presented as 'scientific'...

The wonder to me is that batteries built to a price and assembled by depressed Foxconn wage slaves have so little track record in halting and catching fire. 

I am tempted to be snarky and say that if Tesla built cars like Fisker Karmas, they could ship them with the traction battery isolated and run them on and off the transporters with the sustained engine -- and charge them close to the actual 'point of purchase'.  Still wouldn't preclude a chemical fire if someone shoots it, of course, but you don't get that accelerated thermal runaway from the charged aspect of the chemistry...

[BaltACD]

tree68

 

BaltACD

I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Lithium Ion batterie fail with disaterous consequences. 

If you have LI batteries and you're flying, they have to be in your carry-on.  And they aren't real fond of spares...

All high voltage batteries in cars are marked, so we don't cut the wrong ones...

And all the phones that are carried on planes all have Lithium Ion batteries.

[tree68]

BaltACD

I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Lithium Ion batterie fail with disaterous consequences.

If you have LI batteries and you're flying, they have to be in your carry-on.  And they aren't real fond of spares...

All high voltage batteries in cars are marked, so we don't cut the wrong ones...

 

[BaltACD]

wasd

Check this out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/i1ojo8/tesla_train_fire_in_north_platte_ne/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

So much for Tesla not using rail. They destroyed an autorack though.

Toasty!

Lithium Ion battery technology has yet to be FULLY MASTERED to be fully safe - even when the appropriate precautions have been taken.  Therein it is somewhat like the railroads using welded rail - its about 99.998% safe, however, for welded rail - extreme weather happens, both hot and cold.  I don't have the answers or even the questions about what make Litium Ion batterie fail with disaterous consequences.

[wasd]

Check this out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/i1ojo8/tesla_train_fire_in_north_platte_ne/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

So much for Tesla not using rail. They destroyed an autorack though.

[Bruce D Gillings]

And it seems there continues to be oversimplification of what the OP said: 

 

As Tesla sets the trend and others follow, it is likely that the mighty auto rack could fall into obscurity, just as the 86' boxcar already has.

What do you think? Will railroads still participate in fulfilling the transport needs of the auto industry in the future?

 

 Trends are what are being discussed.  And as noted earlier, railroading has gone from being the transportation method of choice to losing out entirely or partially to OTR. Those EMP and JB Hunt containers at DCs and manufacturing plants are relatively small compared to OTR truck trailers. 

 

No one is suggesting, or implying, it is all great now but it will fall off the cliff and disappear next year or two years from now.  Regardless of Elon Musk’s quirkiness, he is setting some standards and trends that are being repeated across multiple industries. The long-term erosion of rail traffic continues. What will happen, unless the industry makes major changes in service, transparency, information integration, and ease of doing business will be the steady decline in users. Along the way of decline, of course there will be wins here and there. Hell, some railroads might even get an award for excellence in Rail Logistics, beating out the mediocrity of the 6 other primary rail carriers. That’s how things generally work.

 

 

Moving vehicles will become more service sensitive than it already is: to ignore that is to ignore the history of supply chains for the past, oh, 100 years or so. Give or take a few years since paved roads became common. A history that has accelerated in the past decade, to an unimaginable level in the past 5 years.

 

I still love the post about: Toyota Logistics Services awarding CSX the President's Award for Rail Logistics Excellence. When we see a consistent series of awards to railroads – note that I said consistent – for Transportation Logistics Excellence, competing with truckers head-to-head, then we’ll know the industry is evolving into what it needs to survive into the future beyond bulk land barges.  Until then, market share and relevance will continue to shrink.