Weirdest train story in a long time. What the heck? Fortunate that is was unsuccessful.
Looking at the story, it sounds like the engineer could had been of the ilk that believed in the "white boxcars with shackles" story.
Just sayin'.
I am VERY suprised that they did not charge him with domestic terrorism. He deserves to be locked up in ADX Florence for the rest of his life.
Gee, what's the date today?
The charges are probably going to be escalated especially since 1st we are in a national emergency. 2 nd the port is a vital component of commerce and lastly he was trying to damage a freaking hospital ship ordered there by the President. This guy will be lucky to see daylight again as a free man.
The fact he thought he coudl get close to it with his engine? Really, these things don't do well once you leave the rails.
Maybe he was smoking those big complimentary cigars the railroad supplied in the red box in the cab?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
What Next????
zugmann The fact he thought he coudl get close to it with his engine? Really, these things don't do well once you leave the rails. Maybe he was smoking those big complimentary cigars the railroad supplied in the red box in the cab?
Johnny
DeggestyCigars? Are you sure they are not dynamite? That's what a little boy who looked in the flagman's supply that was fastened to the gate at the rear of a passenger car thought he saw.
Years ago, we had to watch a cheesy company safety video about "terrorism and YOU!" or some such...
Every scene was of a pile of fusees taped together.
And yes, there have been people that have called the police because some poor conductor left a pile of fusees on a car after switching an industry or similar.
Convicted One Gee, what's the date today?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I believe that the event actually happened, it's featured at the LA Times' website as well.
I just don't believe that the engineer is being sincere about his motives.
The article states that an "engineer" did this. Now if the operator was just some whack job off the street, who seized control of an unattended engine then I might accept the story at face value. But I can't imagine an experienced engineer believing he could make the entire distance.
There are some stories in nature where a virus actually takes control of the hosts mind to make the host behave in ways conducive to the virus' life cycle.......so MAYBE the virus didn't know that the engine couldn't travel that far. But until we test the engineer for the virus (as well as other well known compounds) I really think we are not going to get the whole story here.
All this happened yesterday. Getting weirder by the minute.
My first thought was April Fools. But if it's a joke, they sure fooled the news people!
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/01/san-pedro-engineer-suspected-of-intentionally-derailing-train-near-usns-mercy/
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/engineer-allegedly-crash-train-usns-mercy-los-angeles/story?id=69926172
York1 John
It is quite a distance!
End of Steel.
Thank You.
So, does an engineer lose his license for something like this? You know- not being in control of his train or some such?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Wouldn't that be a clincher? If spontaneous dementia ended up being a symptom of the Covid-19 disease?
Maybe this whack job thought "The Flying Diesel Corps" was still recruiting?
http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/flying-diesel-corps
Convicted OneBut I can't imagine an experienced engineer believing he could make the entire distance.
Passion is a funny thing...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Convicted One Wouldn't that be a clincher? If spontaneous dementia ended up being a symptom of the Covid-19 disease?
I would suppose that "The Engineer" was more like, under the influence.. Sounds like his 'recreational pharmacuiticals had ganged up on him and then run amok.
I'd like to be 'a fly on the wall' when that engineer has a meeting with his supervisor...How will his 'Business Agent' explain that one away?
What is the locomotive involved?
It looks like it started life as a GP40 or GP40-2.
It doesn't have dynamic brakes but has a box like an enlarged air box cover over the engine. I assume, this being California that it has been re-engined with a low emissions engine...
Peter
ChuckCobleighLooking at the story, it sounds like the engineer could had been of the ilk that believed in the "white boxcars with shackles" story. Just sayin'.
Definately several cars without markers short of a train!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
M636C-- Started life as Boston and Maine GP38 #254.
Rebuilt by MPI into something called a MP20B-3.
MP20Bs are 4 axle 38/40 series EMDs reeninged with the MTU 12V4000 by MPI.
PHL has a lot more MP20Cs.
UP also has a few MP20Bs, one of which resides in Portland. I've seen it in service, but don't know how well it is liked.
Miningman M636C-- Started life as Boston and Maine GP38 #254. Rebuilt by MPI into something called a MP20B-3.
SSW9389 Miningman M636C-- Started life as Boston and Maine GP38 #254. Rebuilt by MPI into something called a MP20B-3. Almost, but not quite, this unit traces back to Maine Central #254. It was originally built by EMD as serial #32663 on order #7246.
The locomotive engineer made several wierd statements to the FBI and press about various issues. I wonder what Pacific Harbor Belt Railroad is thinking now about it's employee screening.
LensCapOn SSW9389 Miningman M636C-- Started life as Boston and Maine GP38 #254. Rebuilt by MPI into something called a MP20B-3. The loco is a Motive Power Industries MP20B-3. (because I'm a train nut, that's why) . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPI_MP20B
SSW9389 Miningman M636C-- Started life as Boston and Maine GP38 #254. Rebuilt by MPI into something called a MP20B-3.
The loco is a Motive Power Industries MP20B-3. (because I'm a train nut, that's why) . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPI_MP20B
Because I was curious, as well:
Here is a C&P from the Wikidedia link provided above:
The MPI MP20B is a diesel-electric locomotive designed and built by MotivePower in Boise, Idaho.
"...It has a 2,000 hp (1,490 kW) MTU-Detroit Diesel 12V4000 Engine. It weighs approximately 277,000 lb and is 59 ft 2 in long. It has a maximum speed of 70 mph (113 km/h). It also includes a B-B wheel arrangement and an optional dynamic brake. It includes a continuous tractive effort of 55,000 lbf (240,000 N) and a starting tractive effort of 85,000 lbf (380,000 N).[1]..."
Strange behavior for an Engineer; who was apparently a union member, and a 'normal' employee(?) Hopefully, the first thing the company did after the incident was a drug screen...and then a psych exam!
And for those of you who are engine nuts (and not interested in a long deep dive to figure out that MTU is now a Rolls-Royce company, like Allison):
https://www.mtu-solutions.com/na/en/applications/rail/locomotive-solutions.html
These engines appear to be 'off' most railfans' radar. Note that Pacific Harbor Lines was also an early adopter and one of the principal users of Caterpillar re-engined locomotives. The 4000 series was introduced at the end of the '90s and received a substantial upgrade circa 2007; interestingly enough the one in the locomotive in question was manufactured here, in Aiken SC.
I believe these are related to the Maybach engines that, for example, are in the reconstructed Krauss-Maffei -- the branding switch from Maybach to MTU for the high-speed engines in this range did not take place long before introduction of the 4000 series.
For tech fiends, the engines use a modified Miller cycle, the common-rail injectors are independently addressable (so cylinder-interruption management is possible) and pilot, main, and afterinjection can be independently modulated for an optimized mix of power and emissions.
White ships, black helicopters...it's all the same...
You forgot the silvery, silvery tinfoil. And the red mercury.
And the shackles. So many, many shackles...
caldreamer I am VERY suprised that they did not charge him with domestic terrorism. He deserves to be locked up in ADX Florence for the rest of his life.
Overmod You forgot the silvery, silvery tinfoil. And the red mercury. And the shackles. So many, many shackles...
Backshop White ships, black helicopters...it's all the same...
REX84 (look it up). Real exercise, but the conspiracy theories it has spawned are truly entertaining.
I saw one video of a fellow walking around a single head searchlight RR signal, talking about how it was somehow linked to satellites (actually would be true today) and would be used to guide the trains of white boxcars with shackles to the internment camps...
When I posted a comment on the video that it was just a standard RR signal, he took the post down...
Good shot of the engine in better times:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2700836
I've heard of people going off the rails, but this is ridiculous.
caldreamer He deserves to be locked up in ADX Florence for the rest of his life.
He deserves to be locked up in ADX Florence for the rest of his life.
As usual, wheel stops and a ballast pile don't stop much. ( a Hayes WK or WH would have been more effective - even though they usually become victims of blind shoves which wasn't the case here, and distance was a friend.)
The Anacostia folks probably want to dig a hole and crawl into it about now.
Murphy SidingAnd don't forget fluoridation and messing with our precious bodily fluids.
Look at the reception these healthcare workers received in India(just can't help some people):
https://imgur.com/gallery/urGRyFr
I guess that's one way to keep the pandemic out of the ol' neighborhood?
Murphy Siding Overmod You forgot the silvery, silvery tinfoil. And the red mercury. And the shackles. So many, many shackles... And don't forget fluoridation and messing with our precious bodily fluids.
And don't forget fluoridation and messing with our precious bodily fluids.
Actually, ADX Florence is one of two federal supermax prisions. The other is in Marion Indiana. Colorado would have no say if he was sent there. ADX Florence has far more dangerous prisoners than him. For example, Ted Kosinski the Unibomber, Shiek Kalid Mohammid who planned the first World Trade Cneter Bombing, and Terry Nichols who was one of the Oklahoma City bombers. Need I say more?
caldreamer Actually, ADX Florence is one of two federal supermax prisions. The other is in Marion Indiana. Colorado would have no say if he was sent there. ADX Florence has far more dangerous prisoners than him. For example, Ted Kosinski the Unibomber, Shiek Kalid Mohammid who planned the first World Trade Cneter Bombing, and Terry Nichols who was one of the Oklahoma City bombers. Need I say more?
Just how far off the end of the rails did the locomotive get? What measurement? To sink a ship with a train would take some doing but I did see a submarine torpedo a truck. Of course it was in a movie, but what the hey. Operation Petticoat with Cary Grant and Tony (Yonda lies da castle of my fadda) Curtis.
54light15Just how far off the end of the rails did the locomotive get?
When locomotives attack:
"ramming the locomotive through two barriers at the end of tracks Tuesday and coming to rest in a gravel lot about 250 yards from the hospital ship, according to the Department of Justice.
Nobody was injured. A nearby California Highway Patrol officer witnessed the crash.
The officer reported seeing “the train smash into a concrete barrier at the end of the track, smash into a steel barrier, smash into a chain-link fence, slide through a parking lot, slide across another lot filled with gravel, and smash into a second chain-link fence.”
https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/engineer-derailed-train-near-usns-mercy-over-conspiracy-theory/?utm_campaign=iosapp
I give the engineer the Speed Racer award for the distance covered. But a question, since this was a deliberate act by an employee, not an accident or oops, will the RR insurance carrier cover the clean-up and maybe a totaled locomotive?
seppburgh2When locomotives attack: "ramming the locomotive through two barriers at the end of tracks Tuesday and coming to rest in a gravel lot about 250 yards from the hospital ship, according to the Department of Justice. Nobody was injured. A nearby California Highway Patrol officer witnessed the crash. The officer reported seeing “the train smash into a concrete barrier at the end of the track, smash into a steel barrier, smash into a chain-link fence, slide through a parking lot, slide across another lot filled with gravel, and smash into a second chain-link fence.” https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/engineer-derailed-train-near-usns-mercy-over-conspiracy-theory/?utm_campaign=iosapp I give the engineer the Speed Racer award for the distance covered. But a question, since this was a deliberate act by an employee, not an accident or oops, will the RR insurance carrier cover the clean-up and maybe a totaled locomotive?
Maybe he thought he was the Captian of ship sent to Alang, India to be cut up on the beach and he was trying his best to beach the ship (locomotive).
Locomotive is far from totaled and will probably be back at work by the end of the month.
The insurance company for the carrier will have to settle the claims against the carrier - the insurance company may initiate a suit against the Engineer to recover what the had to spend to cover the damages (no blood from mental turnips).
Loved the aerial photography (even if it was 'photoshopped' as it was back in the day).
- PDN.
Purity of essence???
You cant fight in here- this is the war room.
35 million dead- tops. Take my word for it.
seppburgh2But a question, since this was a deliberate act by an employee, not an accident or oops, will the RR insurance carrier cover the clean-up and maybe a totaled locomotive?
It all depends on what the insurance policy (contract) says. Major railroads have policies that have very high deductibles. They just have to cover the first $1 million, or more, loss by themselves. The policies also have a limit. The railroads just can't buy enough insurance to cover potential liabilities on potential losses from carrying things the government forces them to cary. Such as chlorine.
So it really all depends on whether the coverage included or excluded employee sabotage. I don't know the provisions of the PHL policy as to deductibles or employee sabotage.
Paul_D_North_JrHow many people here will get that reference?
What does the "D." stand for?
tree68 54light15 Just how far off the end of the rails did the locomotive get? NDG's post (second in the thread) had several views. He definitely covered some ground... Looks like got bogged down in the dirt and couldn't get back on the pavement.
54light15 Just how far off the end of the rails did the locomotive get?
NDG's post (second in the thread) had several views. He definitely covered some ground... Looks like got bogged down in the dirt and couldn't get back on the pavement.
seppburgh2 When locomotives attack: "ramming the locomotive through two barriers at the end of tracks Tuesday and coming to rest in a gravel lot about 250 yards from the hospital ship, according to the Department of Justice. Nobody was injured. A nearby California Highway Patrol officer witnessed the crash. The officer reported seeing “the train smash into a concrete barrier at the end of the track, smash into a steel barrier, smash into a chain-link fence, slide through a parking lot, slide across another lot filled with gravel, and smash into a second chain-link fence.” https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/engineer-derailed-train-near-usns-mercy-over-conspiracy-theory/?utm_campaign=iosapp I give the engineer the Speed Racer award for the distance covered. But a question, since this was a deliberate act by an employee, not an accident or oops, will the RR insurance carrier cover the clean-up and maybe a totaled locomotive?
Murphy SidingIt looks like the chained link fences saved the day. The first one slowed it down, the second one stopped it.
Paul_D_North_Jr Murphy Siding And don't forget fluoridation and messing with our precious bodily fluids. How many people here will get that reference? - PDN.
Murphy Siding And don't forget fluoridation and messing with our precious bodily fluids.
How many people here will get that reference?
One of Stanley Kubrick's best films.
Dimitri- we have a little problem. It seems that one of our train engineers went crazy in the head and tried to sink a ship. Of course I'm glad to speak to you, Dimitri. (Dimitri hangs up)
Looking the whole area over on google satellite view, there seems to be an awful lot of empty asphalt , and dormant cranes, with few international freight sized ships in port. Most of what I do see appears to be auto import cars sitting in lots.
Has this port suffered serious decline in it's service? Maybe this guy was bored to death?
Convicted OneLooking the whole area over on google satellite view, there seems to be an awful lot of empty asphalt , and dormant cranes, with few international freight sized ships in port. Most of what I do see appears to be auto import cars sitting in lots. Has this port suffered serious decline in it's service? Maybe this guy was bored to death?
Understand that the mental midget at the controls go no closer than 250 yards from his intended target. Guess he didn't have much experience on how locomotives operate when not on the proper railroad tracks.
It's "fun" to belittle those who we do not see eye to eye with, makes us feel more certain of our own views, and our own place in life. I get caught up in it myself, and usually regret it later.
And the engineer in this little episode certainly appears to have made a number of miscalculations, either as a result of fear, lapse of judgement, or perhaps some more organic disability that we know nothing about. Still, I always try to understand the position of the other guy. I may not agree with it, but that alone does not automatially disqualify his POV.
As dead as that harbor looks today (I once lived within 5 miles of this location, and the apparent dormancy evident from the aerials appears unusual to me) I have to wonder if the arrival of such a big ship may have been sufficiently unique to this man's normal daily routine that it may have "spooked" him in some way.
I'm not offering this in any manner intended to legitimize or forgive his actions. It's just to me there appears to be parts of this story not being shared with us. Yes, I'd like to see him given a soap box to elaborate on what threat he believed he was rising in opposition to. Unfortunately I am sure that will not be allowed to happen.
It could be as simple that his job was being phased out due to reduction in port activity, and he is going "rogue" in protest. That would be more understandable than the story we have been spoon fed. Sorry if my attempt at objectivity offends any of the fist pounding law an order types who want only to see the perp dehumanized and prosecuted.
I would not try to dehumanize the guy but trying to drive a locomotive off the end of the rails such a distance is not the action of a rational human being.
I can't believe this guy is in the same gene pool.
I bet the guy (or gal) that hired this clown wishes they were invisible right about now.
54light15 I would not try to dehumanize the guy but trying to drive a locomotive off the end of the rails such a distance is not the action of a rational human being.
I suspect "triggered" may be an appropriate analysis.
Convicted OneIt could be as simple that his job was being phased out due to reduction in port activity, and he is going "rogue" in protest. That would be more understandable than the story we have been spoon fed.
Not really.
54light15trying to drive a locomotive off the end of the rails such a distance is not the action of a rational human being.
I agree....so much so that the story we have been given suffers credibility as well.
And I really don't believe that the belittlements contribute to our understanding in any useful way.
Perhaps we should start awarding Darwin awards to those who downplayed the severity of this virus three - four weeks ago. That would make the rest of us feel better too, wouldn't it?
Convicted One It's "fun" to belittle those who we do not see eye to eye with, makes us feel more certain of our own views, and our own place in life. I get caught up in it myself, and usually regret it later. And the engineer in this little episode certainly appears to have made a number of miscalculations, either as a result of fear, lapse of judgement, or perhaps some more organic disability that we know nothing about. Still, I always try to understand the position of the other guy. I may not agree with it, but that alone does not automatially disqualify his POV. As dead as that harbor looks today (I once lived within 5 miles of this location, and the apparent dormancy evident from the aerials appears unusual to me) I have to wonder if the arrival of such a big ship may have been sufficiently unique to this man's normal daily routine that it may have "spooked" him in some way. I'm not offering this in any manner intended to legitimize or forgive his actions. It's just to me there appears to be parts of this story not being shared with us. Yes, I'd like to see him given a soap box to elaborate on what threat he believed he was rising in opposition to. Unfortunately I am sure that will not be allowed to happen. It could be as simple that his job was being phased out due to reduction in port activity, and he is going "rogue" in protest. That would be more understandable than the story we have been spoon fed. Sorry if my attempt at objectivity offends any of the fist pounding law an order types who want only to see the perp dehumanized and prosecuted.
Murphy SidingThe answer is simple
Well, if that's what gives you comfort, I'm not going the try and wrestle it away from you.
How did such a defective engineer function adequately right up to this point? Forget to take his meds? Stroke? Rage over finding out he was soon to be furloughed?
Perhaps he saw them firing up the on-board crematoriums?
Crematoriums >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shackles
Murphy Sidingputs you in euclid territory.
Convicted One Murphy Siding The answer is simple Well, if that's what gives you comfort, I'm not going the try and wrestle it away from you. How did such a defective engineer function adequately right up to this point? Forget to take his meds? Stroke? Rage over finding out he was soon to be furloughed? Perhaps he saw them firing up the on-board crematoriums? Crematoriums >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>shackles Murphy Siding puts you in euclid territory.
Murphy Siding The answer is simple
Murphy Siding puts you in euclid territory.
Some of you have missed the reason he gave for his actions. He was not trying to sink or damage the ship. He may have known that he could not get the locomotive near the ship. He was trying to call media attention to what he believed was the "real" reason (his version) for the ship being there.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper Vaporo Some of you have missed the reason he gave for his actions. He was not trying to sink or damage the ship. He may have known that he could not get the locomotive near the ship. He was trying to call media attention to what he believed was the "real" reason (his version) for the ship being there.
So maybe he wasn't THAT bullish on momentum.
Murphy SidingI'm saying The answer is simple- he or she wasn't in their right mind. You disagree? I don't know what caused the engineer to do this, but I stand by my belief that the person was not in their right mind at the time it happened.
Do you acknowledge that rage could (potentially) place someone into a state of wrong mindedness?
Fear? another possibility?
Perhaps the railroad does not want us to know that they had a loco controlling one of their locos? The story sure seems to have slammed shut tight since the original release.
Semper Vaporo He was trying to call media attention to what he believed was the "real" reason (his version) for the ship being there.
And, I'd like to know what he thought that was, rather than simply dismissing him as a nut.
Convicted OnePerhaps the railroad does not want us to know that they had a loco controlling one of their locos?
Yeah, hard to keep that a secret now.
I just want to know how fast he was going when he hit the block.
We haven't heard vetting, training and supervision as the cause yet.
BaltACD We haven't heard vetting, training and supervision as the cause yet.
It's the barricade's fault for failing to look before stepping out onto the tracks!
zugmannYeah, hard to keep that a secret now. I just want to know how fast he was goin
There could be pre-incident conditions that the RR might be relutant to own up to, and unable to disclose?
Convicted OneThere could be pre-incident conditions that the RR might be relutant to own up to, and unable to disclose?
I mean, HIPPA is a thing.
Poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision.
243129Poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision.
He coudl have been fine, but as convicted one points out, may have suffered from some sort of ailment that led to this. How does one vet for what happens in teh future?
He apparently mentioned that he felt that the ship was there for reasons other than stated. Does proper vetting cover conspiracy theorists?
Like I said - he was triggered (as overused at that term is). Unfortunately, he had a potential weapon in his hands at the time...
Convicted One Murphy Siding I'm saying The answer is simple- he or she wasn't in their right mind. You disagree? I don't know what caused the engineer to do this, but I stand by my belief that the person was not in their right mind at the time it happened. Do you acknowledge that rage could (potentially) place someone into a state of wrong mindedness? Fear? another possibility? Perhaps the railroad does not want us to know that they had a loco controlling one of their locos? The story sure seems to have slammed shut tight since the original release.
Murphy Siding I'm saying The answer is simple- he or she wasn't in their right mind. You disagree? I don't know what caused the engineer to do this, but I stand by my belief that the person was not in their right mind at the time it happened.
Convicted One Semper Vaporo He was trying to call media attention to what he believed was the "real" reason (his version) for the ship being there. And, I'd like to know what he thought that was, rather than simply dismissing him as a nut.
zugmann 243129 Poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision. He coudl have been fine, but as convicted one points out, may have suffered from some sort of ailment that led to this. How does one vet for what happens in teh future?
243129 Poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision.
By observing behavior in the present.
tree68 Does proper vetting cover conspiracy theorists?
Yes, proper vetting can give indications of 'different' behavior and supervision can observe 'performances'.
Don't forget the colander to wear on your head to keep the CIA from controlling your brain (like the woman in the park near Union Station in DC, when we were there).
Murphy SidingHow is that different than what terrorists do to get attention for their cause?
Well, that is likely the reason we will never hear much more on this. The story will be surpressed. Which is exactly the fuel that conspiracy theorists work on.
Would it really harm the republic to hear what this person's reasoning was? Who's interests are best being served supressing the truth? However whacky it may or may not be.
But then I believe there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Whether it's coming here to visit remains to be proven. Which I guess is part of the reason I am skeptical whenever I see individuals dismissed as "lone nutters". They may very well be just that, but I would prefer to draw that conclusion myself, as opposed to having it made for me.
Marion was designated the Supermax when Alcatraz was closed, then when Florence was built Marion reverted to its previous designation as a U.S. Penitentiary, the security level below Supermax. I don't know whether Marion was designed and built as a Supermax. Marion may have been redesignated a Supermax (has been several years since I retireed) but not as far as I know. I awarded and administered a contract to modify the Prison Industries factory at Marion to accommodate a product change, and visited it at the beginning of the contract. It stuck out like a sore thumb; one minute you're riding thru beautiful farm country and the next minute you drive up to a VERY serious-looking prison.
I do know that ADX Florence was purpose-built to be a Supermax. Think of it as a very high-tech cattle barn, so that cell doors and gates can be opened remotely as necessary. That is done to minimize the exposure of correctional staff to the inmates, many of whom would like nothing better than to maim or kill a staff member.
Convicted One Would it really harm the republic to hear what this person's reasoning was?
Would it really harm the republic to hear what this person's reasoning was?
243129 zugmann 243129 Poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision. He coudl have been fine, but as convicted one points out, may have suffered from some sort of ailment that led to this. How does one vet for what happens in teh future? By observing behavior in the present.
Convicted One Murphy Siding How is that different than what terrorists do to get attention for their cause? Well, that is likely the reason we will never hear much more on this. The story will be surpressed. Which is exactly the fuel that conspiracy theorists work on. Would it really harm the republic to hear what this person's reasoning was? Who's interests are best being served supressing the truth? However whacky it may or may not be. But then I believe there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Whether it's coming here to visit remains to be proven. Which I guess is part of the reason I am skeptical whenever I see individuals dismissed as "lone nutters". They may very well be just that, but I would prefer to draw that conclusion myself, as opposed to having it made for me.
Murphy Siding How is that different than what terrorists do to get attention for their cause?
Convicted OneBut then I believe there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Whether it's coming here to visit remains to be proven. Which I guess is part of the reason I am skeptical whenever I see individuals dismissed as "lone nutters". They may very well be just that, but I would prefer to draw that conclusion myself, as opposed to having it made for me.
When one uses a tool the is not capable of accomplishing the stated goal of the terrorist - he becomes a nutter.
The Universe is much too large with way too many galaxy's that contain way too many solar systems with way too many planets for us to be the only 'intelligent' beings to inhabit the Universe. With that being the case, we have only developed radio waves that are able to leave the Earth's atmosphere in the past 100 years or so - and we know the nearest star to us is 4.5 Lightyears distant. In view of the foregoing - where are we on the intelligent 'timeline' vs. other intelligent beings timeline - are we ahead of them - where they are hunter gathers living in caves on their planets - or were we in the hunter gatherer phase when the found our planet and concluded there was not intelligent life here? Questions, Questions Questions. Timing is everything.
Backshop Convicted One Would it really harm the republic to hear what this person's reasoning was? "Reasoning" is a stretch, itself...
"Reasoning" is a stretch, itself...
Murphy SidingConvictedOne suggests it's possible the guy just snapped.
That is entirely possible.
Murphy SidingHow can anyone foresee that in the present
By observation. There are a couple on the NEC (still) who bear watching and it would not surprise me should they be involved in workplace violence. I am not alone in that observation.
Look on the bright side.
At least the voices in his head didn't tell him to stand on a highway overpass with a .30-06.
243129 Murphy Siding ConvictedOne suggests it's possible the guy just snapped. That is entirely possible. Murphy Siding How can anyone foresee that in the present By observation. There are a couple on the NEC (still) who bear watching and it would not surprise me should they be involved in workplace violence. I am not alone in that observation.
Murphy Siding ConvictedOne suggests it's possible the guy just snapped.
Murphy Siding How can anyone foresee that in the present
I would venture that in our employment careers we have all come across individuals we did not feel 'totally comfortable' around for any of a variety of reasons. One cannot predict how life's slings and arrows will affect any individual over time.
Locally we just had a former Army Ranger kill his ex-wife (of seveal years) and her current partner as well as a neighbor kid throwing a lacrosse ball around in his own yard across the street before killing himself. I have to presume the Army does a relatively high level of vetting to individuals accepted into and passing through Ranger training. Somewhere along the line the vetting no longer applied to the situations he was faced with in civilian life.
Even if someone is open about being interested in conspiracy theories (or supernatural phenomena, or any number of other things), it's hard to tell when the stars are going to line up just right and they'll go off the deep end. And they may never line up. For this guy, they did. Is believing in ghosts a disqualifying character trait for engineers?
BaltACD Locally we just had a former Army Ranger kill his ex-wife (of seveal years) and her current partner. I have to presume the Army does a relatively high level of vetting to individuals accepted into and passing through Ranger training.
Locally we just had a former Army Ranger kill his ex-wife (of seveal years) and her current partner. I have to presume the Army does a relatively high level of vetting to individuals accepted into and passing through Ranger training.
BaltACDArmy does a relatively high level of vetting to individuals accepted into and passing through Ranger training.
Yes they do and he was probably an excellent candidate for Ranger 'duties'.
Murphy SidingAnd one of those you mention on the NEC could be normal as can be in the morning and chasing a navy ship with a locomotive in the afternoon. You would be able to say "I told you so" but you wouldn't be able to predict it.
There is no fool-proof system but proper vetting can lessen the possibilities of workplace violence.
tree68 Is believing in ghosts a disqualifying character trait for engineers?
If you asked a candidate if they believe in ghosts and they answered in the affirmative would you recommend they be hired?
They should ask candidates what they think of PSR.
zugmann Convicted One There could be pre-incident conditions that the RR might be relutant to own up to, and unable to disclose? I mean, HIPPA is a thing.
Convicted One There could be pre-incident conditions that the RR might be relutant to own up to, and unable to disclose?
I found out from a legal professional that HIPPA only applies to medical personnel, it doesn't apply to anyone else or to facilities(if I remember correctly, it's been over a week already and it wasn't that important to me, I only remembered to most important part about it applying to medical personnel), but that people now believe that is the case so use that as an excuse to not release information to the general public.
So is HIPAA
MidlandMikeSo is HIPAA
But they're so hungry...
243129 Murphy Siding And one of those you mention on the NEC could be normal as can be in the morning and chasing a navy ship with a locomotive in the afternoon. You would be able to say "I told you so" but you wouldn't be able to predict it. There is no fool-proof system but proper vetting can lessen the possibilities of workplace violence.
Murphy Siding And one of those you mention on the NEC could be normal as can be in the morning and chasing a navy ship with a locomotive in the afternoon. You would be able to say "I told you so" but you wouldn't be able to predict it.
There is no fool-proof system
Ding! Ding! Ding! Lessen, not eliminate.
SALfan Don't forget the colander to wear on your head to keep the CIA from controlling your brain (like the woman in the park near Union Station in DC, when we were there).
Colander? Are you she wasn't a pastafarian waiting for her diety to touch her with his noodly appendages?
zugmann MidlandMike So is HIPAA But they're so hungry...
MidlandMike So is HIPAA
... so hungry they had to name it twice.
243129 tree68 Is believing in ghosts a disqualifying character trait for engineers? If you asked a candidate if they believe in ghosts and they answered in the affirmative would you recommend they be hired?
Sure. There's people who engage in rituals on a weekly basis paying homage to plaster statues, and people who believe the Cowboys can win a Superbowl, why not ghosts?
I think he was in his right mind. I am guessing that this guy has a very high level of unearned self-esteem. He is also addicted to the idea of fame as the promise of social media. He indicates that his decision to attack the ship was to let the world know. He says that was on his mind and he just decided to go for it. When he was arrested he told the cops that he only had one chance so he knew he had to go for it. What is missing are the details of what he wanted to tell the world. The only thing he knew about the ship is that it looked strange. I would have to agree with him on that point.
So the strange looking ship made him suspicious, and he wanted the fame of warning the world about the suspicious ship. Throwing his locomotive at the ship was his plan for the fame. But he let his exaggerated self-esteem and thirst for fame get away with him before he knew the facts about the ship.
Murphy SidingAnd that's exactly what he was hoping for. If you condone giving a soapbox to every "lone nut" who does something terrible to get attention, where do you stop? What about Theodore Kaczynski, Mark David Chapman, Timothy McVeigh, Travis Bickle, or The Monkees?
Well, I think that you are veering into the area of suppressing subversion, which I don't believe has a whole lot of relevance with a locomotive ramming a hospital ship, but who knows? Since the central authority has decided for us that we don't deserve to know.....we likely never will.
There is, IMO, a great potential for abuse in any decision to suppress news solely for the purpose of denying those involved their "moment of fame". I'm more comfortable being given the opportunity to evaluate for myself if 'The Monsters are Due on Maple Street' has relevance.......or not.
And no, I don't buy that vicious rumor at all that the Monkees tune "Mr Webster" was what set the Unabomber against the system.
BaltACDWhen one uses a tool the is not capable of accomplishing the stated goal of the terrorist - he becomes a nutter.
Yanno it's humorous....just a month ago this forum was rife with backslapping enthusiasts who would have reveled in the idea that a locomotive might ram a barricade. But now that one has done exactly that, where's the love?
Convicted One BaltACD When one uses a tool the is not capable of accomplishing the stated goal of the terrorist - he becomes a nutter. Yanno it's humorous....just a month ago this forum was rife with backslapping enthusiasts who would have reveled in the idea that a locomotive might ram a barricade. But now that one has done exactly that, where's the love?
BaltACD When one uses a tool the is not capable of accomplishing the stated goal of the terrorist - he becomes a nutter.
A barricade across existing tracks and 250 yards of land without tracks are very different obstacles.
Euclid I think he was in his right mind. I am guessing that this guy has a very high level of unearned self-esteem. He is also addicted to the idea of fame as the promise of social media. He indicates that his decision to attack the ship was to let the world know. He says that was on his mind and he just decided to go for it. When he was arrested he told the cops that he only had one chance so he knew he had to go for it. What is missing are the details of what he wanted to tell the world. The only thing he knew about the ship is that it looked strange. I would have to agree with him on that point. So the strange looking ship made him suspicious, and he wanted the fame of warning the world about the suspicious ship. Throwing his locomotive at the ship was his plan for the fame. But he let his exaggerated self-esteem and thirst for fame get away with him before he knew the facts about the ship.
Convicted One Murphy Siding And that's exactly what he was hoping for. If you condone giving a soapbox to every "lone nut" who does something terrible to get attention, where do you stop? What about Theodore Kaczynski, Mark David Chapman, Timothy McVeigh, Travis Bickle, or The Monkees? Well, I think that you are veering into the area of suppressing subversion, which I don't believe has a whole lot of relevance with a locomotive ramming a hospital ship, but who knows? Since the central authority has decided for us that we don't deserve to know.....we likely never will. There is, IMO, a great potential for abuse in any decision to suppress news solely for the purpose of denying those involved their "moment of fame". I'm more comfortable being given the opportunity to evaluate for myself if 'The Monsters are Due on Maple Street' has relevance.......or not. And no, I don't buy that vicious rumor at all that the Monkees tune "Mr Webster" was what set the Unabomber against the system.
Murphy Siding And that's exactly what he was hoping for. If you condone giving a soapbox to every "lone nut" who does something terrible to get attention, where do you stop? What about Theodore Kaczynski, Mark David Chapman, Timothy McVeigh, Travis Bickle, or The Monkees?
Yeah, I guess that even Patrick Henry was only one cruel twist of fate away from being dismissed as a "lone nutter"?
The Monkees? Say what? Whiskey tango foxtrot!
Erik_Mag SALfan Don't forget the colander to wear on your head to keep the CIA from controlling your brain (like the woman in the park near Union Station in DC, when we were there). Colander? Are you she wasn't a pastafarian waiting for her diety to touch her with his noodly appendages?
Cthulhu?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu#/media/File:Cthulhu_and_R'lyeh.jpg
Convicted One Yeah, I guess that even Patrick Henry was only one cruel twist of fate away from being dismissed as a "lone nutter"?
Murphy Siding Euclid I think he was in his right mind. I am guessing that this guy has a very high level of unearned self-esteem. He is also addicted to the idea of fame as the promise of social media. He indicates that his decision to attack the ship was to let the world know. He says that was on his mind and he just decided to go for it. When he was arrested he told the cops that he only had one chance so he knew he had to go for it. What is missing are the details of what he wanted to tell the world. The only thing he knew about the ship is that it looked strange. I would have to agree with him on that point. So the strange looking ship made him suspicious, and he wanted the fame of warning the world about the suspicious ship. Throwing his locomotive at the ship was his plan for the fame. But he let his exaggerated self-esteem and thirst for fame get away with him before he knew the facts about the ship. Did you want me to refute the first sentence where you say he was in his right mind, or the whole rest of the post where you refute it?
Did you want me to refute the first sentence where you say he was in his right mind, or the whole rest of the post where you refute it?
Good grief. I said he was in his right mind, meaning his normal self. I did not say he was a model citizen.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/04/eduardo-moreno-california-train-usns-mercy/
Euclid Murphy Siding Euclid I think he was in his right mind. I am guessing that this guy has a very high level of unearned self-esteem. He is also addicted to the idea of fame as the promise of social media. He indicates that his decision to attack the ship was to let the world know. He says that was on his mind and he just decided to go for it. When he was arrested he told the cops that he only had one chance so he knew he had to go for it. What is missing are the details of what he wanted to tell the world. The only thing he knew about the ship is that it looked strange. I would have to agree with him on that point. So the strange looking ship made him suspicious, and he wanted the fame of warning the world about the suspicious ship. Throwing his locomotive at the ship was his plan for the fame. But he let his exaggerated self-esteem and thirst for fame get away with him before he knew the facts about the ship. Did you want me to refute the first sentence where you say he was in his right mind, or the whole rest of the post where you refute it? Good grief. I said he was in his right mind, meaning his normal self. I did not say he was a model citizen. https://heavy.com/news/2020/04/eduardo-moreno-california-train-usns-mercy/
Murphy Sidingf Patrick Henry had tried to drive a locomotive 750' past the ends of the railroad tracks in order to hit a ship in the harbor, then yes.
Wouldn't have required near such drastic action on his part. Had the USA failed in their attempt at independance, I have little doubt that many Tories would have "groupthinked" him to be a "nutter".
Convicted OneWouldn't have required near such drastic action on his part. Had the USA failed in their attempt at independance, I have little doubt that many Tories would have "groupthinked" him to be a "nutter".
History was always written by the victors.
EuclidI think he was in his right mind. I am guessing that this guy has a very high level of unearned self-esteem. He is also addicted to the idea of fame as the promise of social media. He indicates that his decision to attack the ship was to let the world know. He says that was on his mind and he just decided to go for it. When he was arrested he told the cops that he only had one chance so he knew he had to go for it. What is missing are the details of what he wanted to tell the world. The only thing he knew about the ship is that it looked strange. I would have to agree with him on that point.
Do you have a source for any of this?
And I really would like a defintion of what you consider to be "of the right mind"?
zugmannHistory was always written by the victors.
That was really the point I was trying to make abstractly with my "cruel twist of fate" comment earlier, but evidently it sailed over a few heads.
I have faith in your next attempt.
A USNS Hospital ship is strange? Perhaps the only thing strange about it is that it usually isn't berthed in the Port of LA/LB, otherwise you'd have to have been living under a rock not to know the USNS has Hospital ships, and that they had been ordered to the two areas by the Government to help combat COVID-19. Even I knew that and I almost never pay attention to the news, headlines of articles are almost I ever need(for amusement purposes mostly).
Convicted One Murphy Siding f Patrick Henry had tried to drive a locomotive 750' past the ends of the railroad tracks in order to hit a ship in the harbor, then yes. Wouldn't have required near such drastic action on his part. Had the USA failed in their attempt at independance, I have little doubt that many Tories would have "groupthinked" him to be a "nutter".
Murphy Siding f Patrick Henry had tried to drive a locomotive 750' past the ends of the railroad tracks in order to hit a ship in the harbor, then yes.
Poor guy. Maybe he truly believed he was going to be a modern day Dr. Prescott, but ended up a Paul Revere.
zugmann have faith in your next attempt.
There are a lot of tormented minds out there, envisioning infinite perils.
The guy who drove this locomotive off the end of the rails has already gotten his name in the paper, his 5 minutes of fame. Suppressing parts of the story is not going to prevent that. Is the republic really so frail that it would suffer irrepairable harm to ask this guy "what threat do you believe you are bringing attention to?" and publishing that along with the rest of the story?
Of course there is always the potential scenario where some perpetrators seek to advance valid, albeit controversial ideas, Where the authority prefers to not risk popularizing subversive ideas . But I really don't believe that is a facet to this story.....However once again, not knowing for sure, being forced to speculate presents it's own set of challenges.
I'm sure there will eventually be a book. Or podcast.
Flintlock76 Colander? Are you she wasn't a pastafarian waiting for her diety to touch her with his noodly appendages? Cthulhu? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu#/media/File:Cthulhu_and_R'lyeh.jpg
Flying Spaghetti Monster (hence "pastafarian"), not the "Why settle for the lesser of two evils when you can have the greatest of all Evils".
zugmann Euclid I think he was in his right mind. I am guessing that this guy has a very high level of unearned self-esteem. He is also addicted to the idea of fame as the promise of social media. He indicates that his decision to attack the ship was to let the world know. He says that was on his mind and he just decided to go for it. When he was arrested he told the cops that he only had one chance so he knew he had to go for it. What is missing are the details of what he wanted to tell the world. The only thing he knew about the ship is that it looked strange. I would have to agree with him on that point. Do you have a source for any of this? And I really would like a defintion of what you consider to be "of the right mind"?
Euclid I think he was in his right mind. I am guessing that this guy has a very high level of unearned self-esteem. He is also addicted to the idea of fame as the promise of social media. He indicates that his decision to attack the ship was to let the world know. He says that was on his mind and he just decided to go for it. When he was arrested he told the cops that he only had one chance so he knew he had to go for it. What is missing are the details of what he wanted to tell the world. The only thing he knew about the ship is that it looked strange. I would have to agree with him on that point.
I conclude this from reading this link giving more details of what he did.
There has been some speculation here that he was a normal person who just flipped out and did something outrgeous and totally out of character. What he did was outrageous alright, but in reading what he said about it, I conclude that it fits right into his personality. So what I mean by being in his right mind is being perfectly consistent with what I believe his personality is; as opposed to an abberation from his personality that cannot be explained. I do not mean his bevaior was stable, ordinary, rational, etc. in normal terms for average people.
With my suggestion of him being motivated by social media fame, I think what he did was in a way very similar to people who fall off cliffs while taking a selfie. In regard to what I said about being full of unearned self esteem, I mean always being told you are perfect. It is just an impression I get from reading what he said. He radiates self-confidence. So he had no doubt about acting on just a hunch that the ship was a danger, while showing the world he was a hero for exposing the danger by drawing their attention to it. But he was too self-confident to make sure the ship really was a danger. And the lure of fame was too strong to spend more time investigating. The actual act was indeed a very spontaneous decision, and he decribes that quite vividly.
Convicted One..."what threat do you believe you are bringing attention to?"...
You know those white boxcars with shackles we joke about here? Some people believe they are real...
As I've said before, look up "REX84" and prepare to be amazed at the conspiracy theories that surround it.
Murphy Siding Patrick Henry had not been properly vetted, trained, and supervised.
You never know Murph, perhaps Eduardo Moreno was trying to shed light on the great plywood conspiracy, exposing why you see your orders pass you by three times before eventual delivery.
Convicted One Murphy Siding Patrick Henry had not been properly vetted, trained, and supervised. You never know Murph, perhaps Eduardo Moreno was trying to shed light on the great plywood conspiracy, exposing why you see your orders pass you by three times before eventual delivery.
tree68 Convicted One ..."what threat do you believe you are bringing attention to?"... You know those white boxcars with shackles we joke about here? Some people believe they are real... As I've said before, look up "REX84" and prepare to be amazed at the conspiracy theories that surround it.
Convicted One ..."what threat do you believe you are bringing attention to?"...
I feel more unease about our situation today in 2020 than I did about the situation in 1984.
Murphy Sidingould they arrive any sooner if BNSF had a ship to target?
I guess the easiest solution would be to get Moreno on the ballot for an upcoming primary election. That way every conscious thought he has had since the age of 3 becomes discoverable and news worthy?
tree68You know those white boxcars with shackles we joke about here? Some people believe they are real...
The amount of people that believe 5G towers spread Corona? Let's just say we need to invest in education more.
tree68s I've said before, look up "REX84" and prepare to be amazed at the conspiracy theories that surround it.
Thanks for re-emphasizing that. I took your suggestion and found it quite interesting.
So says the person who would hire folks who believe in ghosts.
tree68 If you asked a candidate if they believe in ghosts and they answered in the affirmative would you recommend they be hired? Sure. There's people who engage in rituals on a weekly basis paying homage to plaster statues, and people who believe the Cowboys can win a Superbowl, why not ghosts?
tree68ook up "REX84" and prepare to be amazed at the conspiracy theories that surround it.
Just reviewing the brief entry they have at wikipedia on the subject, it becomes abundantly clear from the excerpt of the inquiry of Oliver North, and the effort to blindside that line of inquiry, that the government indeed has something they would prefer that the general public not be aware of. Something, as it turns out, that the public would find to be an encroachment upon their rights.
There is an old saying that goes "You have nothing to worry about so long as you are not doing anything wrong" Perhaps that proviso is a two way street, and the government at times seeks to surpress things that it ......what's the best way to put this?....would be reluctant to own up to? Obviously they had means, method, and motive in the example cited.
zugmann Convicted One Wouldn't have required near such drastic action on his part. Had the USA failed in their attempt at independance, I have little doubt that many Tories would have "groupthinked" him to be a "nutter".
Convicted One Wouldn't have required near such drastic action on his part. Had the USA failed in their attempt at independance, I have little doubt that many Tories would have "groupthinked" him to be a "nutter".
Judge Matsch certainly felt that way.
Convicted One tree68 ook up "REX84" and prepare to be amazed at the conspiracy theories that surround it. Just reviewing the brief entry they have at wikipedia on the subject, it becomes abundantly clear from the excerpt of the inquiry of Oliver North, and the effort to blindside that line of inquiry, that the government indeed has something they would prefer that the general public not be aware of. Something, as it turns out, that the public would find to be an encroachment upon their rights. There is an old saying that goes "You have nothing to worry about so long as you are not doing anything wrong" Perhaps that proviso is a two way street, and the government at times seeks to surpress things that it ......what's the best way to put this?....would be reluctant to own up to? Obviously they had means, method, and motive in the example cited.
tree68 ook up "REX84" and prepare to be amazed at the conspiracy theories that surround it.
Murphy SidingAdmit it. You have an Area 51 T-shirt and commemorative hat, don't you?
Well, I don't.
Railroad angle: One of the reported locations for the internment camps is/was the Beech Grove shops. One theorist even noted that the barbed wire at the top of the chain link fence around the facility was supposedly canted to keep people in, not out...
And the military installation where I worked was reported to have not one, but two internment camps. I covered most of the installation at one time or another while I was working there and never saw any such thing. Unless they were talking about motor pools and such, which do have fences around them...
But I do find the fertile imaginations fascinating...
And, like most legends, there may be a sliver of truth involved.
.................
I have contempt for sheeple....make of that as you wish.
tree68And, like most legends, there may be a sliver of truth involved.
From what I read, they did in fact devise a covert plan to suspend the constitution (under certain conditions).
Isn't that enough? The reality that the government thought enough of that plan to keep it a secret is somewhat of a red flag to me.
Now could this be a cause to insist on a two man locomotive crew requirement to prevent rogue operation?
Electroliner 1935 Now could this be a cause to insist on a two man locomotive crew requirement to prevent rogue operation?
Personally, I'm holding out for single-man crew... with three-view inward-facing telescreen monitoring and steerable exawatt-sec pulsed laser enforcement. Taser prongs through the seat cushion to ensure prompt disablement upon detection of deleterious or deprecable control movements. Sometimes technology does have answers, even when Jove nods.
What happens when they're in it together?
tree68What happens when they're in it together?
Faster targeting slew and a higher rep rate/duty cycle.
With apologies to Patrick Henry- I've been reading this wrong. The train didn't go 250 yards past the derail. It stopped 250 yards short of its intended target. Does anyone know how far it traveled after it left the tracks? When I look at Google Maps, the end of our spur at work is 259 yards from my desk. How much speed do you think this guy built up before his trip into the parking lot?
Murphy SidingWhen I look at Google Maps, the end of our spur at work is 259 yards from my desk.
If you knew how to get that number, why not do it for the area 'concerned'? Just measure off about 250 yards from where the Mercy was docked, and then measure to end-of-track...
OvermodTaser prongs through the seat cushion to ensure prompt disablement upon detection of deleterious or deprecable control movements.
I know a few guys that would probably be into that.
I conclude that the wheels running on the road pavement broke into it enough to create a form of gooves that acted like track "rails" for guidance. The pavement also retained enough solid structure to suppor the load as track rails do. If it were not for the cut/crushed grooves made in the hard pavement, the trucks would not have had any guidance, and thus would have pivoted and sent the direction of the travel into chaos.
I don't know how fast he was going, but cutting grooves would have produced a lot of friction. Probably, he had the engine applying power at the time. They say they have a video of this. It would be interesting to see that.
EuclidThe pavement also retained enough solid structure to suppor the load as track rails do.
If I were you, I wouldn't use "track rails" in two very different senses in two succeeding sentences. You lost important information when you did that.
For comparison, go back and look at the stories here about the Canadian use of a diesel-electric of reasonably comparable size as an emergency generator -- it was run on its own wheels a fair distance on asphalt, not cement, paving without materially impeding its ability to run. The substantial damage to actual paving, and probably subgrade, would have been great, but the relatively large wheel diameter compared to the extent of flange and tread 'penetration' would assure reasonably good motion 'on the level' -- you could even calculate the effective resistance for rolling 'up and out' of the compressed groove just as you can for the deformation of pneumatic tires (see for example the interesting discussion for the original Audi Quattro that at speeds above around 50mph the all-wheel drive was more efficient than 'pushing' the steer tires, for related reasons)
But this is not the same thing as 'supporting the load as track rails do' except for the brief exception, and then only incidentally and technically, of flange-bearing frogs and crossovers. When running on track, the contact patch for weight-bearing is supposed to be limited to a portion of the coned tread, with some involvement of the flange fillet on curves. Very little of the flange force would go into weight-bearing, even as a resultant through the suspension.
When running off-pavement, a substantial amount of the load is in flange-bearing; only when the flanges have cut fully into the substrate will the tread progressively come into contact; one can expect that the effective "contact patch" will be an equilibrium between the deformed subgrade's shape and the portion of flange and wheel contacting it, and if the locomotive has the power (low speed or high!) to roll itself out of that depression (the forward end, of course, distorting and flattening itself, rather than making a 'lip' that the engine has to overcome like the cuts made via excessive wheelspin) it can and will continue to move.
Meanwhile, modern power with 'centerless' trucks has inherent centering in the secondary suspension -- it would be interesting for Dave Goding, who is now participating in an active thread elsewhere here, to comment on precisely what the effect of trying this stunt with an HTCR truck under power might be, as I suspect the relatively-unguided kinetics of the lever steering to be metastable when not guided by wheel-rail interaction. The rebuilt locomotive might well have active restoring force in its yaw damping -- this would likely not be difficult to research from the rebuilder's records. In any case the practical force causing the truck to yaw would be related to the lateral area in penetration ... which would seem to me to be remarkably small, except when negotiating an angled change of resistance (as, for example, when going from a paved parking lot onto dirt at some skew angle, or encountering a curb or drainage ditch at an angle).
The video in any case may show if there was progressive yaw of the trucks, and the extent of any 'curving' especially if the engine were being driven at any point by the momentum of the consist (including any remaining on the rails and hence with higher effective inertia to be transferred)...
You can train a steer, but you can't steer a train.
BaltACDYou can train a steer, but you can't steer a train.
Well, technically you can, just not from inside it while running from the cab.
As I recall, the Canadians were prepared to 'steer' their unit if needed, either by using boards to deflect the truck at the wheels or by banging laterally on the truck frame until it turned 'back'. People "steer" trucks all the time when doing re-railing, and that would include any 'correction' for misaligned levers in a steerable truck before starting the process of actual rerailing.
It might also be possible for someone intending to undertake this kind of 'terrorism' to make something to limit truck pivot, or even to rig up some kind of cable system to pull the truck frame in yaw -- the running side resistance to turning the leading axle of a Flexicoil C truck in this situation probably being comparatively little, and the angle of 'steering' correction perhaps slight over time. Let's hope the motivated remain relatively ignorant of this sort of thing...
I would opine that the dirt/gravel was his undoing. Had the area all been paved, he would have gotten much further. However, if there is curbing in the parking area he would soon have entered, that may have served to stop him, or deflect him if he hit it at a slight angle.
Overmod Personally, I'm holding out for single-man crew... with three-view inward-facing telescreen monitoring and steerable exawatt-sec pulsed laser enforcement. Taser prongs through the seat cushion to ensure prompt disablement upon detection of deleterious or deprecable control movements. Sometimes technology does have answers, even when Jove nods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6PBtPYb9DE
Just missing the taser prongs.
"Microsleep detec-ted. Charging....
CLEAR!"
Overmod "Microsleep detec-ted. Charging.... CLEAR!"
You mean it reads Signals, Too??
NDG Overmod "Microsleep detec-ted. Charging.... CLEAR!" You mean it reads Signals, Too??
No -- this is a meaning that would be much more familiar to Tree than to US&S, I'm afraid...
There is a big difference between 'clear' in this sense and 'clear board', somewhat like the difference between 'taking your girlfriend out' and 'taking out your girlfriend'...
York1My first thought was April Fools. But if it's a joke, they sure fooled the news people! https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/01/san-pedro-engineer-suspected-of-intentionally-derailing-train-near-usns-mercy/ https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/engineer-allegedly-crash-train-usns-mercy-los-angeles/story?id=69926172
Check out the 0:57 video and photos in the reports linked by York1 above (thanks!) - I think they'll answer most of your questions.
'Measuring' from a Google Maps satellite view, it looks to me like he got about 290' - call it 100+/- yards - mostly on pavement. Looks like what stopped him was a strip of dirt/ sand running at a diagonal - which weirdly enough, might have been a former trackbed! (Notice what appear to be rails/ remnants of a grade crossing of Regan St. directly ahead of the loco and in line with that strip.) It appears he dragged a well car with a single container along with him, which kept on going a little bit further and wound up alongside and parallel to the loco. Looks like it got stuck in the trackbed area, too - wonder if the container was empty? In the aerial view at this page (linked from the Mercury News article above) - https://www.dailybreeze.com/2020/03/31/train-derails-in-san-pedro-causing-leak-but-no-injuries-reported/ - or from a Google Maps satellite view, it shows a bumping post at the end of the track in the middle of the Knoll Drive loop - N 33.7502 W 118.2808 (without any middle reinforcing rails, not that they would have made a difference). From said Google Maps view, it looks like he went pretty much straight, maybe curving a little bit to the right. What's scary is that if you look on the western side of the trackbed where the loco wound up, there's what looks like a complex of big UG pipes and some valves - hope those aren't high pressure gas or petroleum of some kind, or there could have been a real disaster!
From having seen a lot of derailments in paved areas, the wheel-pavement dynamics depend a lot on the paving structure, and what's underneath it. As Overmod said, it depends on how far the wheel sinks into the pavement. But little weight is supported by the flanges - it's the tread that carries most of it. If the paving is reasonably thick and solid, you'd be surprised how little the wheel sinks in - once the wheel sinks in enough so that the full width of the tread is engaged and the contact area expands to about a foot long, it may not go any lower than that - say, 2'' - 3". But once it hits that soft spot, it'll sink up to the truck frame.
As to direction, a body in motion tends to stay in motion in the same direction. Here, as the front wheels of each truck leave the rails, the rear wheels are still constrained by the rails, so the front wheels won't wander much - they're also kept in alignment with the track direction by the center pin or suspension. After that, the same principle applies - "rinse and repeat", or like an arithmetical progression - the rear wheels running in the groove effectively steer the front wheels to go straight ahead.
Back to work now.
Overmod NDG Overmod "Microsleep detec-ted. Charging.... CLEAR!" You mean it reads Signals, Too?? No -- this is a meaning that would be much more familiar to Tree than to US&S, I'm afraid... There is a big difference between 'clear' in this sense and 'clear board', somewhat like the difference between 'taking your girlfriend out' and 'taking out your girlfriend'...
Train crews have to be qualified in basic first aid. As part of that training we are shown how to properly use an AED, though they are not yet provided on locomotives.
I wonder if that qualification will mean we will be expected to repair those seats ourselves when they inevitably break down.....
SD70DudeI wonder if that qualification will mean we will be expected to repair those seats ourselves when they inevitably break down.....
How will you know?
It's the periodic 92-day testing that is going to be the real pain in the... perhaps I need a better metaphor, as this is a little too close to ... maybe I need a better metaphor that doesn't involve painful proximity at all.
An ominous point to ponder, perhaps: isn't the alerter system part of the critical safety equipment that has to be tested every time a crew takes a train? Better start googling manufacturers of dielectric underwear with a flesh-like surface layer...
Overmod Euclid The pavement also retained enough solid structure to suppor the load as track rails do. If I were you, I wouldn't use "track rails" in two very different senses in two succeeding sentences. You lost important information when you did that.
Euclid The pavement also retained enough solid structure to suppor the load as track rails do.
I used the term track rails in two very different senses because that is exactly what I intended to do. That is why I put quotation marks around the word rails in one sentence, and not in the other sentence. In the first sentence, I was referring to flanges pressing dents into the pavement that then provided the guidance normally provided by track rails.
In the second sentence, I was using the term track rails as it normally refers to the rails of a railroad track. In any case, my point had nothing to do with the ability of track rails to carry a load except for the ability to prevent the wheels from breaking up the pavement and defeating the guidence I was refering to.
I used the term guidance because I was referring to the guidance provided by the rails of a railroad track guiding the wheel flanges. My point was that with the flanges pressing linear dents into the asphalt, the wheel flanges were guided by those grooves.
You are reading a lot more information into what you assume I meant to say than what I actually meant to say. No information was lost in what I said and meant to say.
I might add that, according to PWW, "most" of the vertical support turns out to be via extended contact patches on the treads, not in 'flange bearing' as it's normally construed. Since your actual second-sentence point was 'bearing the load as track rails do' (and not 'flangelike' guidance as you said it was) there is a certain amount of real semantic leeway here -- but I'd still be very careful conflating what intact tracks do in steering and guiding with the situation off the tracks entirely.
Overmod SD70Dude I wonder if that qualification will mean we will be expected to repair those seats ourselves when they inevitably break down..... How will you know? It's the periodic 92-day testing that is going to be the real pain in the... perhaps I need a better metaphor, as this is a little too close to ... maybe I need a better metaphor that doesn't involve painful proximity at all. An ominous point to ponder, perhaps: isn't the alerter system part of the critical safety equipment that has to be tested every time a crew takes a train? Better start googling manufacturers of dielectric underwear with a flesh-like surface layer...
SD70Dude I wonder if that qualification will mean we will be expected to repair those seats ourselves when they inevitably break down.....
I've been thinking of picking up a biohazard suit anyway, what with the current pandemic and all. I'll have to make sure to get one that is insulated.
SD70DudeI'll have to make sure to get one that is insulated.
And very heavy in the seat -- the apparatus will likely to be kept honed by lower-level management, and probably strongly spring-loaded. (I would not put it past Progress Rail to use small gas charges, in which case you might need to repurpose suits for IED rather than AED 'defense', or perhaps have someone Scotchguard a flak suit...)
With machine-vision nerds in the picture, I'd be strongly worried about implicit code that senses proper posterior engagement in deployment. So be sure there is a layer outside the PPE (personal posterior ensurement) that has the correct conductivity to fool the embedded logic...
Overmod Murphy Siding When I look at Google Maps, the end of our spur at work is 259 yards from my desk. If you knew how to get that number, why not do it for the area 'concerned'? Just measure off about 250 yards from where the Mercy was docked, and then measure to end-of-track...
Murphy Siding When I look at Google Maps, the end of our spur at work is 259 yards from my desk.
Overmod I might add that, according to PWW, "most" of the vertical support turns out to be via extended contact patches on the treads, not in 'flange bearing' as it's normally construed. Since your actual second-sentence point was 'bearing the load as track rails do' (and not 'flangelike' guidance as you said it was) there is a certain amount of real semantic leeway here -- but I'd still be very careful conflating what intact tracks do in steering and guiding with the situation off the tracks entirely.
OvermodNo -- this is a meaning that would be much more familiar to Tree than to US&S, I'm afraid...
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