jeffhergert Lithonia Operator I'm with Joe. Some people with hands-on experience are vital to the process. I don't know about other railroads, but part of the vetting process really is done during the training portion. Conductors and engineers are supposed to fill out a daily evaluation after each tour of duty. I remember one guy in my new hire class who didn't make it through the OJT. He was sttugling a bit and realized it wasn't for him after some frank discussions. The hard part sometimes is getting the right experienced people to take on students. Some don't want to. They also changed (and shortened up) the new hire training program. They used to assign a new hire to a specific conductor for a set period of time. That still happens on assigned jobs like yard and locals, but now on the unassigned through freight pool they have them work first in - first out. Instead of working with one person for awhile, they work with whom ever they happen to catch. While that may be ok after a new hire has some experience, at first they really need to work with a good trainer to establish a good grasp of the basics. The worst was 10 or so years ago when they were training a large number of new hires out of Chicago. For their road familiarization trips, they assigned two or three new hires to a 'super' conductor for a trip. This conductor wasn't the train's actual conductor, just a trainer who was riding the trailing engine with his charges pointing out the territory. Jeff
Lithonia Operator I'm with Joe. Some people with hands-on experience are vital to the process.
I'm with Joe. Some people with hands-on experience are vital to the process.
I don't know about other railroads, but part of the vetting process really is done during the training portion. Conductors and engineers are supposed to fill out a daily evaluation after each tour of duty. I remember one guy in my new hire class who didn't make it through the OJT. He was sttugling a bit and realized it wasn't for him after some frank discussions.
The hard part sometimes is getting the right experienced people to take on students. Some don't want to. They also changed (and shortened up) the new hire training program. They used to assign a new hire to a specific conductor for a set period of time. That still happens on assigned jobs like yard and locals, but now on the unassigned through freight pool they have them work first in - first out. Instead of working with one person for awhile, they work with whom ever they happen to catch. While that may be ok after a new hire has some experience, at first they really need to work with a good trainer to establish a good grasp of the basics.
The worst was 10 or so years ago when they were training a large number of new hires out of Chicago. For their road familiarization trips, they assigned two or three new hires to a 'super' conductor for a trip. This conductor wasn't the train's actual conductor, just a trainer who was riding the trailing engine with his charges pointing out the territory.
Jeff
Part of the problem with have existing employees assisting in the vetting during OJT is too many of the employees don't want to 'drop the hammer' on trainees that they see are struggling. As employees they didn't sign up to make HR type decisions, even when they are faced with them. Nobody wants to give a report that someone should be terminated - the employees want too much to be a 'good guy' and not make the critical reports that are necessary. It takes a personality trait that many don't have to 'fire' somebody - but doing it is best for the company and the individual involved.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDPart of the problem with have existing employees assisting in the vetting during OJT is too many of the employees don't want to 'drop the hammer' on trainees that they see are struggling. As employees they didn't sign up to make HR type decisions, even when they are faced with them. Nobody wants to give a report that someone should be terminated - the employees want too much to be a 'good guy' and not make the critical reports that are necessary. It takes a personality trait that many don't have to 'fire' somebody - but doing it is best for the company and the individual involved.
That's a very good point. I know I wouldn't want to be in that position. I hadn't thought about that aspect.
zugmann How many engineers of 30+ years have been willing to go into those jobs?
As noted by others, not everyone wants to be in that position. And sometimes those senior people who are excellent at their craft are terrible at teaching. Asking them to train a new employee is almost worse that just cutting the newbie loose and letting them learn it on their own.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Based on what zug and Larry are saying and what I know about the problems with so-called mentoring and the hazards of an old boy network, I stated that experienced engineers might contribute to developing both the vetting and training processes, but shouldn't be actually doing either.
charlie hebdo Based on what zug and Larry are saying and what I know about the problems with so-called mentoring and the hazards of an old boy network, I stated that experienced engineers might contribute to developing both the vetting and training processes, but shouldn't be actually doing either.
I would opine that one should never say never - you may find some experienced engineers who would excel at vetting, and I'm sure you'll find a lot of fantastic mentors as well. But the vetting process has to continue right up the chain.
Once again, the Peter Principle plays a part here. As in Peter's own example in the book, an exemplary salesman might make an atrocious sales manager.
When I was an engineer trainee on the Chessie System I was assigned to the same veteran engineer for several weeks, being called whenever he was.
When I was the engineer doing the training on CSX the trainees were being called whenever their rest was up, thus working with a different engineer, some of whom were just out of the training program themselves, nearly every trip. It was impossible to know what the trainee had been taught earlier, if he was making progress, or repeating the same mistakes. Thus it was difficult to do a meaningful evaluation.
Mark Vinski
Mark, was that change made simply to get the trainee thru the program as quickly as possible?
Seems like a really bad change.
Lithonia Operator Mark, was that change made simply to get the trainee thru the program as quickly as possible? Seems like a really bad change.
Yes and Yes.
We have two little packets, called 'crew packs', provided for train crews. One has a small roll of toilet paper, napkins, some little alcohol wipes, etc. The other has more operational items. An air slip form, mail in card for crossing close calls, bad order tag, etc. I've noticed in the operational pack, they've also started including what to do when a crew has to inspect for a hot wheel. Things to look for, like a partial hand brake or retainer in a retaining position and how to remedy some items, like cutting out the air brakes on a car.
When I first saw this cared, I thought, "Really. They have to do this?" Then I thought about some of the new hires I've worked with once they were newly promoted and on their own. It's not that I feel that they aren't capable or that they won't turn out to be good railroaders. It's just that they are turned loose too fast.
Once when I was a conductor I had a student and our train was stopped at a control point. The dispatcher couldn't get the switches and frog machines to lock up. He said a signal maintainer was coming and it was OK for us to wait for him to fix what was wrong. I told the dispatcher I had a student and asked if we could hand line ourselves through to teach him how to do it. The dispatcher said OK and gave us authority to do so and we did. Some would've just waited for the maintainer, even some with students. Others would do what we did.
jeffhergert Lithonia Operator Mark, was that change made simply to get the trainee thru the program as quickly as possible? Seems like a really bad change. Yes and Yes. We have two little packets, called 'crew packs', provided for train crews. One has a small roll of toilet paper, napkins, some little alcohol wipes, etc. The other has more operational items. An air slip form, mail in card for crossing close calls, bad order tag, etc. I've noticed in the operational pack, they've also started including what to do when a crew has to inspect for a hot wheel. Things to look for, like a partial hand brake or retainer in a retaining position and how to remedy some items, like cutting out the air brakes on a car. When I first saw this cared, I thought, "Really. They have to do this?" Then I thought about some of the new hires I've worked with once they were newly promoted and on their own. It's not that I feel that they aren't capable or that they won't turn out to be good railroaders. It's just that they are turned loose too fast. Once when I was a conductor I had a student and our train was stopped at a control point. The dispatcher couldn't get the switches and frog machines to lock up. He said a signal maintainer was coming and it was OK for us to wait for him to fix what was wrong. I told the dispatcher I had a student and asked if we could hand line ourselves through to teach him how to do it. The dispatcher said OK and gave us authority to do so and we did. Some would've just waited for the maintainer, even some with students. Others would do what we did. Jeff
In my line of work, you stall out at a certain pay grade if you're one of those people who "just want to do my job" and cannot or will not share their knowledge with others and help out the skill community in other ways. To get promoted beyond that pay grade as a technical person (i.e. non-manager), you must demonstrate that you are consistently willing and able to mentor junior people and otherwise share your knowledge with others.
It seems to me such a system would benefit the railroads, because it rewards people like you who want to help junior people out, and it also provides motivation for those who might otherwise be tempted to sit in their corner and not talk to anyone.
Being good at one's job doesn't necessarily mean you would be good at teaching others, even if you want to.
charlie hebdo Being good at one's job doesn't necessarily mean you would be good at teaching others, even if you want to.
I'm not sure that would apply to railroad operations.
Joe, the key word was 'necessarily'to which I would add that it is very much an individual matter. For example, some excellent therapists are also good teachers and supervisors, but some are most definitely not. Ditto in sports.
243129 charlie hebdo Being good at one's job doesn't necessarily mean you would be good at teaching others, even if you want to. I'm not sure that would apply to railroad operations.
It applies universally in all forms of human endeavor.
For those the know their job inside, out and sideways - have trouble accepting that when they say or do something - those they are training can't comprehend what they are being told or shown and the 'old head trainer' doesn't know how to break down and frame the 'transaction' in a different way that makes more sense to the one being trained. People don't learn in the same ways, it is the trainers responsibility to communicate the information in a manner that the trainee can comprehend and learn from.
charlie hebdo Joe, the key word was 'necessarily'to which I would add that it is very much an individual matter. For example, some excellent therapists are also good teachers and supervisors, but some are most definitely not. Ditto in sports.
In railroad operations, if someone is good at their job I would think they would set an example by their performance, not their teaching skills. When I was a fireman I worked with many different engineers with many different, not necessarily 'good', styles. By the results of these observations, I was able to determine who was 'good' and who was not and strove to adopt the 'good' style.
Balt:
Very true.
243129In railroad operations, if someone is good at their job I would think they would set an example by their performance, not their teaching skills. When I was a fireman I worked with many different engineers with many different, not necessarily 'good', styles. By the results of these observations, I was able to determine who was 'good' and who was not and strove to adopt the 'good' style.
When I was a student engineer I had an "old head" engineer as my instructor one day - knew the territory like the back of his hand. He gave me information on the profile that no one else has, and which I still use to this day. Most other instructors coached as they saw the need. Some hardly at all, unless it was absolutely necessary.
We don't have the luxury of a potential (or actual) student engineer in the cab much of the time. The conductor is back on the train (a la Amtrak). If we're running long-hood-forward, we'll usually have a student conductor who is familiar with the territory as the second set of eyes.
And, no two trips are the same. Even if the other person in the cab is keenly aware of the engineers's actions, they may not handle the train exactly the same way tomorrow.
Exactly... and those who are willing AND able to teach should be rewarded for it. After all, it's people like that who ensure the future of the enterprise. That's a much bigger contribution than "just doing your job."
I should add that in my experience, lack of willingness to mentor is much more common than lack of ability. Most people just don't want to put forth the effort.
Psychot charlie hebdo Being good at one's job doesn't necessarily mean you would be good at teaching others, even if you want to. Exactly... and those who are willing AND able to teach should be rewarded for it. After all, it's people like that who ensure the future of the enterprise. That's a much bigger contribution than "just doing your job." I should add that in my experience, lack of willingness to mentor is much more common than lack of ability. Most people just don't want to put forth the effort.
Very true. If the incentives were greater? Money, release time?
Another change of questionable wisdom was requiring all T&E employees to become qualified engineers. I have seen perfectly competent conductors become incompetent engineers either because they had no interest or no aptitude for the work, but were forced into it to keep their job.
Yes, both of those are bad policies.
I agree wholeheartedly about the effectiveness of having people work on short rest. Hospitals do this with medical residents also. I'm sure we don't even want to know about a lot of things done by bleary-eyed/brained doctors. Humans need rest.
So, when conductors are forced to become engineers, are they subject to being called for either a conductor or engineer job? Is that the point: to give the company more staffing flexibility?
Lithonia OperatorYes, both of those are bad policies. I agree wholeheartedly about the effectiveness of having people work on short rest. Hospitals do this with medical residents also. I'm sure we don't even want to know about a lot of things done by bleary-eyed/brained doctors. Humans need rest.
Trainees are not being called on 'short rest'. HOS rest requirements apply to all employees in T&E service, those working and those training. Where a trainee would get separated from a trainer is where when the trainer marks off his position on the board is, say, 5 times out - ie. 4 other turns will be called before the trainer. If the trainee marks off and is head out, he will get called on the next available train after he has acrewed the required rest - that could be with his 'trainer' or any other one in the pool.
Currently crews involved in freight T&E service are required to have 10 hours UNDISTRUBED rest. They cannot be called by the callers until 10 hours 1 minute from their last registered OFF time.
Thanks, Balt.
Well, that's not as bad as I thought. However, weeks of nothing but sleep and work takes a toll. Most non-railroad people have 12-16 hours off.
And in reality the railroader trainee is being forced to use time supposedly allotted for sleeping to run errands, do family duties, pay bills, fix the leaky faucet, etc., etc. I doubt most people on such a schedule get more than six hours actual sleep, on average. Do that for a month, and most people would be exhausted much of the time, and not too sharp.
Lithonia Operator Thanks, Balt. Well, that's not as bad as I thought. However, weeks of nothing but sleep and work takes a toll. Most non-railroad people have 12-16 hours off. And in reality the railroader trainee is being forced to use time supposedly allotted for sleeping to run errands, do family duties, pay bills, fix the leaky faucet, etc., etc. I doubt most people on such a schedule get more than six hours actual sleep, on average. Do that for a month, and most people would be exhausted much of the time, and not too sharp.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingIsn't that just OJT for how the real job will be?
Yes it is. I spent 26 of my years on the extra board before cell phones waiting for a call giving me two hours notice to report for an assignment in any class of service at any time of the day or night. Your life revolves around your job and you must govern yourself accordingly i.e. availability, proper rest etc.
Murph and Joe: you've got me there.
I guess it really does train for the reality of the job. I was a clerk/operator for only two years, and half of that time I had a regular (non extra board) job with exactly 8 hours of work each day, on a fixed schedule five days a week. So I was spoiled.
But yeah, I guess for T&E employees it will rarely be that regular, except maybe on a yard switching job.
I'm a person who requires good rest, always have been. Even if I could shave off fifty years, I would not be a good conductor candidate.
Either it is that way or not. Seems there are different opinions when it should be a fact. In any case, if guys are only getting six hours of sleep weeks at a time, itenot only a hard life, it's unsafe. Hence collisions such as discussed here with the crew asleep.
charlie hebdoEither it is that way or not. Seems there are different opinions when it should be a fact. In any case, if guys are only getting six hours of sleep weeks at a time, itenot only a hard life, it's unsafe. Hence collisions such as discussed here with the crew asleep.
What part of 10 hours UNDISTURBED rest before being available for the next call are you overlooking. What happens during those 10+ hours is in the hands of the employee.
Back when Joe hired out, the HOS law was much different. Total legal time On Duty was 16 hours. The 8 hours between register off and mark up where the 8 hours of rest, despite having been called 6 hours after the register off.
Outside of having T&E employees working 8 to 5 with a hour for lunch - there is no perfect way to protect the service requirements of the transportation public.
Back when some T&E employees in passenger service had regular runs (such as the IC passenger T&E employees on the Louisiana Division had regular runs and trainmen would be away from home for 24 hours, running a little over 400 miles altogether in 3 stretches--100 miles, 200 miles, and 100 miles--and be home for 24 hours before going out again), troubles en route could extend the time on the road.
Johnny
DeggestyBack when some T&E employees in passenger service had regular runs (such as the IC passenger T&E employees on the Louisiana Division had regular runs and trainmen would be away from home for 24 hours, running a little over 400 miles altogether in 3 stretches--100 miles, 200 miles, and 100 miles--and be home for 24 hours before going out again), troubles en route could extend the time on the road.
Passenger operations have always been a minor adendum to overall T&E employment which deals with freight. Men needed 'good' seniority to be able to hold any passenger runs or to work the passenger extra board. Passenger jobs have always been the next best thing to having a job with predictable assigned working hours in the railroad industry.
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