Jeff: Offhand, I think your incident was a process/system error, not your error. And as OM said, your recognition of the error and coolly taking corrective action indicates your cognitive processes (especially decision-making and judgement) are flexible and quick.
Also how do you vet an employee in an industry that is ever-changing? There have been many changes in the past 5 years, both technological (PTC, EM, TO) and operatinal (PSR). The place I work in is not the same I hired in.
As far as attracting new talent - the internet has provided those prospective employees what the job is really like - for better or worse.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Also how do you vet an employee in an industry that is ever-changing? There have been many changes in the past 5 years, both technological (PTC, EM, TO) and operatinal (PSR). The place I work in is not the same I hired in. As far as attracting new talent - the internet has provided those prospective employees what the job is really like - for better or worse.
That's a function of a good ongoing training program. People that are properly vetted for the specific industry and area of work would necessarily be adaptable/flexible (an old dog capable of learning new tricks) like you.
Also look at people in other industries where change is frequent. They seem to have figured it out.
charlie hebdoAlso look at people in other industries where change is frequent. They seem to have figured it out.
Probably have to start with having a managment structure/philosophy that isn't out of the 1800s.
Would 243129 be adaptable to 21st Century railroad operation, with the vetting he received in the early 60's? Many of the elements that are required of 21st Century railroader weren't even a wildass dream at the time of his vetting for his ability to adapt.
Times change and job requirements change.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWould 243129 be adaptable to 21st Century railroad operation
I worked 14 years into the 21st century.
zugmann charlie hebdo Also look at people in other industries where change is frequent. They seem to have figured it out. Probably have to start with having a managment structure/philosophy that isn't out of the 1800s.
charlie hebdo Also look at people in other industries where change is frequent. They seem to have figured it out.
Definitely! And that is the sine non qua here, a definite sticking point in an industry known for a "that's the way we always have done it" management style.
Murphy SidingI'm not sure I understand what automated addiction means. Can you explain?
This can apply to railroad engineers also.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/automation-addiction-pilots-forgetting-fly/story?id=14417730
When I retired in 2014 there was a dearth of engineers who were not lost when these systems, ATC,PTC etc. failed.
charlie hebdo, a definite sticking point in an industry known for a "that's the way we always have done it" management style.
Perhaps the crowning irony being that perhaps nowhere in the industry has the impact of the Hunter Harrison 'revolution' culminating in modern PSR been more severe, or traumatic, than the ranks of 'we've always done it this way' management. I particularly remember Hunter's account of the CN bilingual management as he found it -- that was certainly NOT the way it was when he left...
BaltACD Would 243129 be adaptable to 21st Century railroad operation, with the vetting he received in the early 60's? Many of the elements that are required of 21st Century railroader weren't even a wildass dream at the time of his vetting for his ability to adapt. Times change and job requirements change.
Vetting and proper supervision plus ongoing training as stated before. If the cognitive and personality characeristics I mentioned before were present when hired, most would be preserved, unless there had been a TBI or infection such as meningitis.
charlie hebdo zugmann charlie hebdo Also look at people in other industries where change is frequent. They seem to have figured it out. Probably have to start with having a managment structure/philosophy that isn't out of the 1800s. Definitely! And that is the sine non qua here, a definite sticking point in an industry known for a "that's the way we always have done it" management style.
When the 'state of the art' systems fail we do hark back. Manual block dates from the 1880's does it not?
Murphy Siding 243129 Murphy Siding I'm not sure I understand what automated addiction means. Can you explain? Google is your friend. Whatever. If you don't want to be part of the discussion that's fine. Don't complain when nobody understands what you're trying to get accross.
243129
Murphy Siding I'm not sure I understand what automated addiction means. Can you explain? Google is your friend. Whatever. If you don't want to be part of the discussion that's fine. Don't complain when nobody understands what you're trying to get accross.
Murphy Siding I'm not sure I understand what automated addiction means. Can you explain?
Google is your friend.
This takes me back to when I rode the PATCO system (Philadelphia to Lindenwold) The operator ran to train to Lindenwold using the two buttons, #1 to close the doors, #2 to start the train. The train would accelerate, cruise, slow down and stop at the next station. On the return trip, the operator would again close the doors with the #1 button but then used the throttle to operate the train. Curious, I asked him why he was manually operating the train. His response was that the automated system was fine on dry rail but on wet rail, the auto brake rate was too high and the train would slide through the station. So, he ran manually to maintain his proficiency. I have read about Southwest Airlines not wanting some automatic landing systems because they wanted their pilots to maintain their proficiency. And I like knowing that the individual at the controls of a plane that I am on is VERY proficient on flying that plane.
Part of the problem of the Boeing 737 MAX was the "automation" used to compensate for the bigger engines tendency to push the nose of the plane up which moved the trim to push the nose back down. It failed and the pilots had not been trained on its operation and did not know enough to save the plane
See https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/automation-addiction-pilots-forgetting-fly/story?id=14417730
Here is a template for hiring, vetting and training procedures that I presented to the Amtrak Chief Transportation Officer in 2015. They felt that they had a better idea.
Hiring and Training Template for Train and Engine Service EmployeesAmtrak is rife with inexperience from top to bottom. Since it's inception Amtrak, eschewing the knowledge and experience of the veteran workforce it inherited in the 1983 takeover of operations on the Northeast Corridor (NEC), has used hit and miss trial and error tactics and nowhere is it more apparent than in their hiring and training procedures which have resulted in many incidents, most notably the incidents in Philadelphia involving the 'wrong way train' and the tragedy at Frankford Junction which could quite possibly have been avoided through vetting and proper training by experienced operations personnel not those of questionable pedigree that Amtrak chooses to employ.That being said I have a template for hiring and training of operations personnel. It is a comprehensive and multifaceted program.I have experienced operations personnel for an oversight committee made up of seasoned T&E veterans which can also screen prospective candidates, advise instructors, conduct field testing and evaluate trainees. Seasoned operations veterans can better assess the acumen for train operations a candidate possesses than a non experienced in operations Human Resources employee.Physical ability. Candidates must be able to pass a physical agility screening. How can one assist in an evacuation situation if that person cannot safely and without assistance evacuate themselves?OJT, OJT and more OJT. Nothing beats on the job training. Real-time situations with the accompanying conditions in all classes of service. Basic rules at the outset, more instruction midway, intense instruction at the end of OJT to be followed by final examination. All instructions on rules and special instructions are to be tailored to situations on the division for which hired. This way there is a mental picture when applying the rules. No 'generic' rules situations. Physical characteristics for engineers are extremely important and the candidate must exhibit intimate knowledge of such. Testing will be conducted by veteran engineers with 35 or more years of experience in all classes of service.Train handling for engineers, which I suspect is one of the culprits in the recent rash of crude oil derailments, instruction should be intense and evaluated strictly.Car handling for train service candidates should be extensive and equally intense.Present operating employees and supervision, most of who are 'victims' of Amtrak's inadequate training program, would be subject to evaluation and field testing and if need be assigned to other duties should they not measure up. No loss of job to present employees. Create a new position for those who cannot attain the standards for participating in train operations i.e. “ticket taker” where the individual would only be involved in collecting revenue and have nothing to do with train operations. They can observe operations and benefit with what would be considered 'paid training'. Seniority would be preserved in the craft from which they came should they be able to pass the required exams/tests at a later time.Amtrak must shed its arrogance and acknowledge its shortcomings and yield to the willing assistance from seasoned active and retired operations employees.Amtrak in its present state is an accident waiting to happen.
This is a question for those currently operating trains. How much supervision support do you get these days? Do you get ride alongs from Road Formen of Engines or Trainmasters or what ever the current titles are? Or have the railroads trimmed their ranks too where they don't have time to know you and how you are doing? Do they have any proficency support for you? Are there tools or classes for you to use to help keep you finding purpose in what you are doing.
And another question, does any engineer or conductor see any way to change the current duty hours to reduce the wild uncertaincy of the times crews are called? One might think PSR would let them schedule crews to where fatigue would not be a problem (Stop laughing)
jeffhergert There was a Form B bulletin in effect that covered where the switch (CTC control point) from the yard to the main track was. Being inside the Form B, there was no red board located at the main track switch. Jeff
There was a Form B bulletin in effect that covered where the switch (CTC control point) from the yard to the main track was. Being inside the Form B, there was no red board located at the main track switch.
Jeff
Before I retired CSX was using red boards at any switch entering a section of track that required permission of a maintenance foreman to enter.
If the CSX engineer had doubts about the switch position he could probably have called the Amtrak train directly on the radio.
Electroliner 1935And another question, does any engineer or conductor see any way to change the current duty hours to reduce the wild uncertaincy of the times crews are called? One might think PSR would let them schedule crews to where fatigue would not be a problem (Stop laughing)
I worked multiple CSX Divisions which had as their base every fallen flag carrier the made up CSX. Among those fallen flag carriers and also among all the local Union contract addendums added to the National contract - virtually EVERY form of having crews report for duty in scheduled and unscheduled manners has been tried. From my observation, all have been found wanting, over time. Any operation that operates around the clock with mechanical things that are subject to 'breakage' that can and do affect the operation and throw the best laid plans into the scrap heap on a seconds notice.
There is no perfect crewing pattern for 24 hour operations.
To add to what Balt wrote, we must consider the tours of duty that railroader's work. A full workday can range from a few hours to every second of the 12 hours allowed.
I believe it's still the case that a certain distance (used to be around 100 miles) was considered to be a full day. And at one time, it was. Today, a crew on a through freight can travel that distance in a few hours and they're done for the day.
On the other hand, a crew can just barely make it out of the yard in that 12 hours sometimes.
Mechanical considerations notwithstanding, railroads would need to figure out how to put everyone on an eight-hour day, and that would require a major overhaul of the culture.
And this is where railroads are at a disadvantage with the trucking industry. A truck driver drives until he runs out of hours. A rail crew essentially runs until they run out of territory.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Creativity is lacking and badly needed. Just throwing up hands and saying nothing works because railroads are so unique is just an excuse to maintain the status quo.
Questions:
1. The 100 mile day. Is that 19th century concept still the norm? If so, why?
2.Yard work v road duty. The pay basis should reflect the difference in jobs. Does it?
mvlandswIf the CSX engineer had doubts about the switch position he could probably have called the Amtrak train directly on the radio.
Or the dispatcher.
But consider this: he had already 'signed off' on the SPAF. What would the likely consequences of his 'going on record' with that announcement have been?
As opposed to a quick walk down for a look-see, and no harm done if he closed it quickly...
... except that he ran out of CYA time just a bit early, away from a radio...
charlie hebdo1. The 100 mile day. Is that 19th century concept still the norm? If so, why?
Would you give up being paid for a full day's pay for working a three hour day? How long did it take to shed firemen?
Besides, as Balt notes, sometimes that three hour day turns into 12.
That said - crew districts may have lengthened. The career railroaders will have to address that.
Bear in mind that I'm taking a neutral position on that. I have no dog in the fight.
I get paid the same whether I work one hour or twelve.
charlie hebdo2.Yard work v road duty. The pay basis should reflect the difference in jobs. Does it?
Actually, I think it does.
Most of us when we were hourlies, except for some railroaders, did not get paid for a day's work for working less than eight hours. Indeed, as a young monthly-salaried manager in retail, we often worked 60+ hours, no time and a half overtime. The same is true for many young salaried workers today who want to get ahead, lest some on here think all millenials and gen Z folks are lazy.
charlie hebdoCreativity is lacking and badly needed. Just throwing up hands and saying nothing works because railroads are so unique is just an excuse to maintain the status quo. Questions: 1. The 100 mile day. Is that 19th century concept still the norm? If so, why? 2.Yard work v road duty. The pay basis should reflect the difference in jobs. Does it?
Being academic, you have no idea of all the different solutions that have been devised and tried....and all around the country new and different solutions are being thought of and implemented.
The 'basic day' was expanded over the years - last I recall was 128 miles; that is before my carrier abandoned that form of payment and went to trip rates between terminals. Many of the trips approximate 200 miles as crew districts have been changed over the years, mostly to reduce 'crew starts' and the resulting head count. A 240 mile Trip pays more than a 180 mile trip. T&E personel bid in the trips they desire to run based on seniority order. The trips can be on assigned trains with designated start times or they can be in Pool service that are called on a 'as needed' basis or any of a number of other conditions depending on the specific agreement that applies to the specific territory.
Monthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts.
One thing I have learned on all the districts I have interacted with over the years - virtually no two districts want the exact same things as other districts. Local agreement addendums between the craft local and the company negotiate agreements that are agreeable to all the parties involved.
charlie hebdoMost of us when we were hourlies, except for some railroaders, did not get paid for a day's work for working less than eight hours. Indeed, as a young monthly-salaried manager in retail, we often worked 60+ hours, no time and a half overtime. The same is true for many young salaried workers today who want to get ahead, lest some on here think all millenials and gen Z folks are lazy.
The salaried - no matter the industry - are the true Wage Slaves. It is the company's way or the highway and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I may be wrong, but I have the impression that the salaried person is paid to get the job done--however long it takes.
Johnny
DeggestyI may be wrong, but I have the impression that the salaried person is paid to get the job done--however long it takes.
Many salaries are related to the number of hours expected or required in performance of the work, and are based upon the hours a business is open or active. Naturally if you're in management you'll be arriving early ... perhaps very early, and leaving sometime later than close. This extra time is also factored into the compensation, or ought to be.
Where the abuse comes in is when 'the job' expands to fill other requirements, in fact sometimes even other job descriptions, with no increase in compensation. With the not-so-tacit understanding that if you won't work the extra time 'free', you'll either be fired on some fabricated ground or 'at-will' terminated when somebody else who will presents themself.
The real wage slaves are proper owners. Especially small-business owners. When anything doesn't get done right, guess who's there doing it. And that's without even the guarantee of a regular paycheck and, often, without full benefits.
If you calculate what the effective hourly wage is for some younger salaried managers (given long work weeks) , it's sometimes less than minimum wage, a variation on pay to play. The hope for getting on the fast track is held out as a carrot. And if you don't put in the time, often even when you've already done more than all your work, your career is going nowhere.
BaltACDMonthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts.
I always remember back in the fifties when I was working with the Signal & Communications gangs, when the pay checks were distributed, we would load up the truck and drive to the bank. The men (and they were all men) during regular job work professed to have NO math skills, but when they got their checks, they somehow knew if the amount they were expecting did not show onthe check. I was salaried and was not an issue for me.
My question for jeff and other T&E men, is there a base pay for those on the extra board or if the number of starts falls, how do they subsist?
Electroliner 1935 BaltACD Monthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts. I always remember back in the fifties when I was working with the Signal & Communications gangs, when the pay checks were distributed, we would load up the truck and drive to the bank. The men (and they were all men) during regular job work professed to have NO math skills, but when they got their checks, they somehow knew if the amount they were expecting did not show onthe check. I was salaried and was not an issue for me. My question for jeff and other T&E men, is there a base pay for those on the extra board or if the number of starts falls, how do they subsist?
BaltACD Monthly a notice is published which presents the earnings averages on each advertised trip districts so that employees can make informed decisions on the earning potential of each of the trip districts.
Any T&E employee that makes it past the probationary period of their employment knows to the penny what they are owed by the company pay period to pay period - even if they need two witnesses to their making their mark.
The 100 mile was a minimum, not a maximum. It was derived from travelling 8 hours at 12 1/2 mph. It is still used for locals and yard jobs. The wording was 8 hours or less, 100 miles or less constitutes a basic day. It means you get paid the 8 hours or 100 miles even if the time/miles of the job are less.
The current basic day, has been that way since January 1, 1995, is 130 miles. We have one run that is actually 108 miles, but pays 130. The basic day.
Miles over the 100/130 are paid at a slightly different rate, called overmiles. It's not overtime. Overtime for runs up to 100/130 begins at 8 hours. For runs over the basic mileage, overtime begins when the time on duty exceeds the miles run divided by 12.5 for 100 miles, 16.25 for 130 miles. On some runs, it's possible not to make overtime. Our East Pool for example is 197 miles. Overtime begins after being 12 hours and 07 minutes on duty. You have to expire on your hours of service before getting overtime. And it happens.
Some railroads have gone to hourly pay rates. Most (talking those with a union contract) that I'm aware of have gone to 10 hours or less for a basic day. However, those contracts have also loosened up work rules so that if you have time left when you arrive at your destination, they can have you do other things. Like switch your own train out, do air tests on other trains, etc. They can have you do that now, but without the loosened work rules it would be a violation of the contract and crews could put in penalty claims. Also those who lose out because a crew is doing work that contractualy belongs to someone else, can also put in a penalty claim. EHH liked hourly pay. Especially when it loosens the work restrictions. You need less people on the payroll when you can have one crew do road and yard work without penalty.
Yard jobs usually pays less than road jobs. However, they also usually have assigned start times and assigned days off. They either require some seniority or little seniority to hold. That is, at a home terminal they might go high. An outlaying yard job (or local job) that no one wants usually goes the the engineer with the least seniority.
We've lost a few employees who quit rather than work as engineers. They were conductors, at the high end of the trainmen's roster who had gone to engine service but had been set back to conductors for a few years. When they originally went into engine service, engineers could set themselves back to conductors at their home terminal if they couldn't hold an engineer's slot there. After a complaint from the trainmen, it was determined there was no agreement allowing engineers to do so. So now, engineers have to 'chase' their seniority over the entire district. This can force the youngest (seniority wise) into working 200 or more miles from home. Often jobs that don't pay the most, don't make much overtime, and don't provide lodging allowances.
As for the fixed basic miles for a day's work, passenger trainmen ordinarily had a 150 mile day. About 50 years ago, i rode the night train from Atlanta to Nashville; going into Nashville, the conductor told me of the discrepancy between his assignment (Chatttanooga-Nashville) and the assignment of the crew he relieved in Chattanooga (Atlanta-Chattanooga) The other crew received a full day's pay for the 134 miles they ran--and he received only a day's pay for the 153 miles that he ran.
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