TRAIN WECK IN Granitville,SC

[gabe]

Oh how happy businesses would be if they couldn't sued due to the actions of their employees. Oh how sad, I would be because there wouldn't be any lawyers.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

OSKAR, is the Norfolk Southern damaged locomotive in Norfolk Southern's yard, or near the Bulk Transfer Facility? What all did you see as far as movements yesterday?

[oskar]

I belive it is going to be in the empty space where the masters train is I am getting ready to go and see where they put them they are going to send 13 cars of scrap soon but I am not sure what happened to th other 2 I only saw one that got pulled in

I will have the movements later and today's




kevin

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Oh how happy businesses would be if they couldn't sued due to the actions of their employees. Oh how sad, I would be because there wouldn't be any lawyers.

Gabe

Gabe, you know better than that...

The lawyers would simply switch over to white collar crime and RICO that would be sure to blossom in such an environment. Lawyers always land on their feet...

LC

[oskar]

Mark were you driving a green pick up truck today

I will have the trains that I saw on saturday and today in about 2 hours




kevin

[Anonymous]

No. I did not go out and hunt for trains today. I drive a pickup but it is chromalusion with an ASU permit on the rear window. I did see an empty coal train sitting in the siding in Martinez on the way home from church. It had SD70MAC 721 and AC44 552.

[jeaton]

LC

Does that include the 50 that constitute a good start?[}:)][}:)][}:)]

Jay

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

LC

Does that include the 50 that constitute a good start?[}:)][}:)][}:)]

Jay

Which 50 would they be???[;)]

LC

[nsrayman]

NS 192 had NS 6653 & NS 6593

local had NS 4622

QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar

I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown

Ventrue NS should not be sued the crew of the local it's not NS fualt




PS [censored][censored]




kevin

[oskar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nsrayman


NS 192 had NS 6653 & NS 6593

local had NS 4622

QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar

I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown


kevin

how do you know this and do you know where they are and what are NS's plans for the units





kevin

[BigJim]

It was relayed to us today that the engineer in the wreck, at Granitville, had actually escaped from the wreckage. He looked back to see that his conductor had not been able to get off and went back to rescue him. The conductor had a broken leg. The engineer was able to get the conductor off of the engine, but with his heavy excertion and breathing, he succumed to the clorine fumes and died lying on the ground.

[oskar]

Mark I still don't know where the units are you got to look for your self I am not going to get in trouble

chris is a hero and should be remembered




kevin

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

That is heroic and he should be so recognized. I appreciate your bringing this to our attention.

AMEN

[Anonymous]

Kevin, I don't really care to see the locomotives or take pictures of them, that would be disrespectful. I am just curious as to what Norfolk Southern is going to do to them; sell them for scrap, torch them, retire them? Also it's a shame to know that someone saved another person's life and the media hasn't mentioned the first thing about it. It's reassuring to know there are some people in this world that would give up there own life to save another.

God Bless

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by markgatech

Kevin, I don't really care to see the locomotives or take pictures of them, that would be disrespectful. I am just curious as to what Norfolk Southern is going to do to them; sell them for scrap, torch them, retire them? Also it's a shame to know that someone saved another person's life and the media hasn't mentioned the first thing about it. It's reassuring to know there are some people in this world that would give up there own life to save another.

God Bless

Bobby Dodd of fame at your school would have been proud to hear you say that.

[Junctionfan]

I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong.

Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature.

Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong.

Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature.

Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do?

Only a slight pressurizing of the cab would do much the same thing with proper filters, unless you are mentioning the need for BT's and the like for those particularly bad times.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong.

Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature.

Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do?

Only a slight pressurizing of the cab would do much the same thing with proper filters, unless you are mentioning the need for BT's and the like for those particularly bad times.

Gas masks would be better because the crew is mobile as some of the chemicals although toxic and just and inhalation hazard like chlorine when those cars derail aren't then so much of a problem, but then you get chemicals like anhydrous ammonia that require the crew run away as fast as they can (explosion hazard).

Some trains have all kinds of nasty chemicals with them. Better to be equiped to deal with what ever disaster may occur than wait for the fire department and hazmat to come get you out of the cab.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong.

Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature.

Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do?

Locomotives do have fire extinguishers in the cab. I wonder if gas masks would pass a cost benefit analysis, though.

[oskar]

an NS spokeman said the trains will be at a lower speed and the line will be back to sevice on Monday




kevin

[Junctionfan]

It might be a good idea for gas masks to be givin to crews when they are going to handle certain chemicals. Chemicals such as chlorine, hydrocyanic acid, vinyl chloride, toulene, xylene, cyclohexane, styrene monomer, ethalene oxide, methyl methacrylate monomer, hydrogen sulfide and other things like that; the crews should probably have gas mask just for the switching of them because you never know if the tankers with leak until it happens.

Some if not all the chemicals I mentioned are classified either special dangerous. Thease chemicals are an inhalation hazard and some are deadly carnagens. For the sake of a few extra bucks, the crew now has the insurance of being protected from inhaling the chemicals should a tankcar breach for whatever reason.

From a money/ greedy businessman point of view, it is cheaper and easier to purchase a gas mask than train a new crew.

[Junctionfan]

Well hopefully they know what the limits are of the mask when it is tested and then make a decision on how good it is before purchasing. Trainning with use of the mask and wavers for legal purposes if a crew refused to take a gas mask with them.

As far as cost analysis goes, can you really put a price on safety? The titanic was thought to be unsinkable so cost analysis was likely that right amount of life boats were not cost effective; we all know what happened there.

I don't see how a safety device will make the trucks take on chemical traffic formally rail. Could you explain that please?

[edblysard]

Just to see...
Went to Ebay, looked at Gas Mask...
Average price on the first page, $35.00 for a realitively new model.

So, take my small railroad, and buy every T&E employee a mask.

That is excluding the car men, and car repair men, diesel shop, limo divers and trainmasters and yardmasters.

Just for train crews, you have $35.00 X 349 =$12215.00.
Add in replacable cartridiges, another $35.00 for a four pack.
$24430.00.

Change them out at the rate of 25% per year, due to damage, loss, and the fact that most trainmen cant hang on to them...
$6107.50.

Now, add in the cost of training the crews to use them, and the cost of testing the mask every six months...
oh, and another bag to carry it around in.

Go the other way, and dont issue them to the crew, but instead, afix them in the locomotive...thats at least 3 mask per locomotive.
How many locomotives does UP and BNSF have?

Now, I have been flat switching in yard service, the most dangerous type of railroading.
More injuries occur in yards than anywhere else on any railroad.

So far, in 8 plus years, I have never had the need to use a gas mask.

We are trained to move upwind whenever a hazardous leak occurs, gather as much info on the car, its contents, and wait for the professionals to show up.

We are trained not to attempt to rescue any crew member, unless it is safe to do so.
Not because the railroad dosnt care about any trapped employee, but because someone has to be there to inform the emergency crews what they are dealing with, and if we are all dead, they have no idea what they are dealing with.

Some of the metal alkiloids we haul around react badly whan water is put on them, they explode.

And, in case it escaped your notice...the very first thing at a train wreck is....
the locomotive.
So, if the mask are in the locomotive, and the crew bailed out, what use is it?
If you issued them to the crew...how many crews take their grips with them when they jump?
None that I know of.

The "if it saves one life, its worth it" dosnt work, because they will never be used.
The whole concept of an accident precludes having the time to put them on.
Our training precludes the need to wear them, we are supposed to run away upwind.

I would rather the railroad take the money you suggest they spend on mask, and instead, take two or three firefighters and cops from each town or county, and train them in railroad specific haz mat response and containment.

Ed

[tree68]

Our fire department was recently issued a number of "escape masks." The device is nothing more than a small compressed air bottle (breathing grade air - like divers use), an integral regulator and a plastic bag that fits over your head. It's good for 5-7 minutes. Hopefully that's enough to get you out of danger.

The kits were provided via a state grant, so I don't have a dollar figure on them. Considering that a fully CBRN compliant self contained breathing apparatus runs in the $3000-$4000 range (yes, that firefighter you see in full gear is wearing well over $4000 worth of equipment), I have to believe these rescue packs run upwards of $1000 each.

Now the down side. I mentioned certified breathing air. The involves quarterly tests. Since the logistics of sending packs back to one location for refill, etc, would be daunting, that means refill stations at several points. Each fill site has to have a quarterly air quality test done by a qualified third party tester. Never mind the maintenance on the air compressor itself.

In addition, the pack itself must be regularly inspected to ensure readiness, and the compressed air cylinder has to have a hydrostatic test every three years. Those cylinders are carrying 3000 psi, by the way.

Do the logistics look a little intimidating? Minimum of 2 packs each for how many locomotives? Plus yard workers who could be exposed, plus....

As has been pointed out, the cost-benefit analysis is everything, and from my point of view, it isn't looking very good. Even in the case of my fire department, in over 25 years I have yet (knock on wood) to need respiratory protection for a non-fire event (such as a hazmat). We'll be maintaining the escape packs, but I have my doubts we'll ever use them.

[Anonymous]

Im a driver for virgin trains here in th u.k I used to be a truck driver and if we were carrying chemicals we had to have hazmat protective clothing gloves goggles etc in the cab.Should there be the same rules for trains in th U.S. or is there already?

[wabash1]

Ed

You are slightly off. The conductor wont wear them due to not being able to look in the mirror...

The big problem of having gas mask is who has time to put them on like you said if I am about to hit something i am not thinking of what to wear... ( or change after wards like underwear) i am in the process of either keeping wreck from happening or making it lesser impact. if the mask is stored on the engine i would not be wearing one anyways these same emgines are so nasty and filthy I rather take MY chances on breathing the chemicals. and the last thing is dont issue them i carry 1 grip for railroad rule books time tables and other assorted stuff i am required to carry we dont need more.

[edblysard]

Maybe we need to clairify what this stuff is..

Make no mistake, the chlorine in the tank cars is nothing like the stuff in your laundry bleach.
Whats in the bottle on top of your washer is diluted, about 1.5 to 3% chlorine, the rest is inert, water.

Whats in the tankcar is 100% chlorine.

I have seen the results when it leaks out on the ground.

This stuff will eat the rocks.
It etches the rail, and bleaches the creasote out of the ties...

If, by some stroke of bad luck, you are exposed to this stuff, a gas mask will do you no good.

Now, a full body protective suit, with fully contained breathing gear, might get you by for a few minutes.

Trust me, the rules and procedures we have in place and follow didnt come out of thin air, they are based on the results of accidents like this, we've been there, done that.

Not to lessen the heroic actions, or take away from his courage, but the engineer who ran back to save the conductor broke the rules, and paid for it with his life.

We are trained to get away, contact the proper authorities, gather all the info we can on what is leaking, provide that info to the first responders, and stay out of their way.

Trust me, nothing will get Larry more POed that me getting in his way, trying to be a hero, while he and his crew are trying to get a line on a leaking chlorine tank car.

Look at it this way.

Larry arrives on the scene.

He has no idea what is leaking.

The crew is dead, because they broke the rules, played hero.

Now, who is going to give Larry the haz mat sheet on the tank car, tell him how far back in the train it is, and, whats in the cars next to it?

What if, instead of chlorine, it was a hydrocyanid acid car?

If Larry donst know what car is leaking, or if the car next to it might explode, how can he make plans to contain the leak, or evacuate the local population?

Does Larry know that hydrocyanid acid is a liquid under pressure, but a gas at atmosphere, or that it is more heavy that air, and will sink to the ground, fill up ditches and culverts, and concentrate in all the low spots?

Can a simple rebreather be used, or should his guys get the full suit on?

Water or foam?

Fans, or hope for a breeze, or hope for no breeze at all?

When it all goes wrong, one of us is supposed to grab the train sheet, and get the heck away.

The conductor is supposed to have it in his possesion, not in his grip, not jammed into the sun visor or on the dashboard...but in in his control and possesion.

You are not going to have time to find, much less put on a gas mask, rebreather or suit.

Trust me, if giving the crews gas masks lessened the liability of the carrier, we would have them already.

That is one thing railroads excel at, lessening their liability.

What they have learned through experience is that if you survive a train wreck involving hazmat, then one of you has to get the required info to the proper people.

You dont wait, you run.

You dont look back, you dont play hero, you never, ever go back...you do get to a phone or a radio and call for help, then stand by to provide the trainned professionals with the information they need to deal with it.

If I can grab one of my buddies on the way out, I will.

If I can't, then I can't.

Think about this, Andrew...

What am I going to do with a gas mask?

Put it on and wander around a hazmat train wreck?

Uhh..thats what Larry gets paid to do.

I get paid to make sure Larry knows what he is wandering around in...

And, just to remind you...railroads move more of this stuff than any other mode of transportation.

Per million miles travled, statisticly, we are the safest way to move these chemicals.

Ed

[Junctionfan]

Thankyou for the explaination Ed, that certainly makes sense to me. I'm sorry Mark I didn't understand your answer; don't take it personally please.

[oskar]

Mark going train chasing tommow (Saturday) if you are I will be on Tayor Street




kevin

[Anonymous]

2005 is already in full swing here and the RR's are setting new recordsof Train wreacks already! Hoo Wee!