QUOTE: Originally posted by markgatech Has CSX ceased operations on the Spartanburg Sub or rerouted traffic for today? I live on the other side of the river and not to far from the subdivision and have not heard the first train today. Normally the line is good for at least a couple of coal trains, a merchandise train, and maybe an intermodal.
QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar ...wecked...
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear Here's the link to NEWSDAY Article: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-train-wreck,0,6580557.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines LC
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe Boy, I know I am stating the obvious, but this is just bad. The crew, the citizens. Someone said a faulty switch was to blame? How is that? Also, suggested that this is the third time it has caused an accident. This isn't going to be a pretty lawsuit. This is just bad. Gabe
USAF TSgt C-17 Aircraft Maintenance Flying Crew Chief & Flightline Avionics Craftsman
Dave Howarth Jr. Livin' On Former CNW Spur From Manitowoc To Appleton In Reedsville, WI
- Formerly From The Home of Wisconsin Central's 5,000,000th Carload
- Manitowoc Cranes, Manitowoc Ice Machines, Burger Boat
QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I should get a award for this coverage
QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I should get a award for this coverage I realize I am a little late here, but I think you need to be a little more circumspect about posting the kind of "news" you've been posting in this thread. Yes, a major train accident is certainly something that would be of interest/concern on this forum, but it doesn't help to be posting rumors or things that have been heard from a friend of a friend, etc. I don't know who or what your sources are but they certainly don't seem entirely accurate. I'm just thinking that the "the conductor's ok...no, he's dead....no, he's ok...no, he's dead...actually, he's alive after all" in particular seems almost flippant and definitely irresponsible. Imagine reading that post if you were a friend or a family member of a conductor who worked in that area.
QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1 I will not say that you are wrong on the switch. but over in that area i dont think it is dark terittory. meaning if the switch was left lined the engineer would have been running on a restricting signal. if it was dark territory i dont think the speed would have been that high. and ns dont have no 3 didget unit numbers. as far as law suits go it wont be exspensive. and not everyone is going to get paid off. it just dont work that way.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear Oh, and perhaps I should have mentioned it before, but I now know it is public. The NS Engineer was Chris Seeling, he was 28. R.I.P. Chris. LC
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear Oh, and perhaps I should have mentioned it before, but I now know it is public. The NS Engineer was Chris Seeling, he was 28. R.I.P. Chris. LC Limitedclear: How are you holding up?
QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar ...the lead unit will be retired because of the Death...
Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!!
QUOTE: Originally posted by Brak710101 This is sad to hear... I saw it on the news with some air footage, and the locomotives looked fairly intact, but the cars went accordian style, and piled up. The ground appeared to be covered in hazmat containment cemicals, but i mean, this is clorine gas people... come on... it floats.... My sympathy goes out to the crew and their faimlys.[:(]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear As it turns out, I actually do know the Engineer who died. Nice guy and young too. Very sad. R.I.P., brother, R.I.P. LC
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear As it turns out, I actually do know the Engineer who died. Nice guy and young too. Very sad. R.I.P., brother, R.I.P. LC ouch brother..sorry to hear that..it realy hits home when its someone you know personaly!!!!! csx engineer
QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I am not 100 percent sure the lead unit will be retired my friend told me that but there was many other units that died but never retired and got the torch like CSX 700 in that unit 3 injures and one death and many other that are still running so I am going to make sure he is not lieing they are going to patch the tanker sometime tonight and it will be OK then hopefully they clear the whole thing up kevin
Russell
QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD A DC City Council member reintroduced a bill as emergency legislation to either ban or require a permit to ship hazardous materials by rail through Washington, D.C. This bill was prompted by the NS derailment in Graniteville, SC which released Chlorine gas. The D.C. City Council defeated a similar bill recently. Their concern was the CSX freight bypass tracks in Washington, DC pass within a few blocks of the Capito, andl terrorist action might derail a freight train with cars carrying hazardous materials, and release toxic gasses.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
QUOTE: Originally posted by tomubee Wabash 1. You may be right about the responsibilities of the engineer for determining that mainline switch and derail were locked in place for main track movement, but during the forthcoming investigation the local engineer will be asked if he did all that was possible to avoid the incident that occurred. If in the course of that line of questioning he states that he assumed that the ground crew had carried out their responsibities and did double check position of switch and derail, he will again be asked if he did everything possible to protect against such a catastropic event. The engineer and the crew may be totally innocent of any negligence, and the switch may have been opened and locked by saboteurs. (Railroad switch keys are easily obtained at any flea market.) The sorry fact is that if ground crew is found to be negligent, the engineer, as most people who have suffered through an official investigation will attest, will be found to be in some part responsible for the accident. It may not be justice in the true sense of the word, but it will be the railroad's particular justice. My prayers are for all the parties involved.
QUOTE: Originally posted by markgatech Oskar, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Spartanburg Sub use Positive Train Control? There isn't one signal on the line, I believe the signal goes directly to the crew in the cab. Also, looks like Norfolk Southern is going to pay big for this. Oskar, did you read the Augusta Chronicle, an ad states "Railroad Injuries" "If you or a loved one has been exposed to chlorine gas, or injured by the negligence of the railroad, please call us. We want to help."
CCC&StLRy
QUOTE: Originally posted by CleveUnionTerm What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site? A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein. Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run. C.C.C.& St.L. Ry.
QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1 QUOTE: Originally posted by CleveUnionTerm What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site? A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein. Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run. C.C.C.& St.L. Ry. never take switch alignment for granted. so you are saying that at 55mph i should slow down 1 mile before i get to the switch make sure it is right then go back to notch 8 for 2 miles slow down again until i get to crew change point. ... why dont i just stop and flag all crossing also .
QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1 QUOTE: Originally posted by CleveUnionTerm What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site? A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein. Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run. C.C.C.& St.L. Ry. never take switch alignment for granted. so you are saying that at 55mph i should slow down 1 mile before i get to the switch make sure it is right then go back to notch 8 for 2 miles slow down again until i get to crew change point. ... why dont i just stop and flag all crossing also . FOFLMAO... Wabash, while you're at it how 'bout having cab signals installed and electric locks on all switches off the main?? CC- Have you ever run a train at 40+ mph??? Seeing a switch target at 2:40am from any distance in your headlight/ditchlights is tough enough let alone at that closing speed. The fact that Chris saw the misaligned switch and dumped the train (according to NTSB) is testimony to the fact that he was reasonable alert. Just not enough time to make a difference. LC
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1 QUOTE: Originally posted by CleveUnionTerm What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site? A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein. Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run. C.C.C.& St.L. Ry. never take switch alignment for granted. so you are saying that at 55mph i should slow down 1 mile before i get to the switch make sure it is right then go back to notch 8 for 2 miles slow down again until i get to crew change point. ... why dont i just stop and flag all crossing also . FOFLMAO... Wabash, while you're at it how 'bout having cab signals installed and electric locks on all switches off the main?? CC- Have you ever run a train at 40+ mph??? Seeing a switch target at 2:40am from any distance in your headlight/ditchlights is tough enough let alone at that closing speed. The fact that Chris saw the misaligned switch and dumped the train (according to NTSB) is testimony to the fact that he was reasonable alert. Just not enough time to make a difference. LC LC, When you say "dumped the train" do you mean put it in emergency? Do they know how far ahead of the switch the engineer was able to do it? I feel so bad for the crew and town. I read on CNN that the previous crew forgot to realign the switch? Does anyone know if there is any truth to that? Gabe
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan There wasn't a automatic signal to tell if the signal was thrown was there? Maybe a dwarf or something?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Valleyline After reading all of the above it seems to me that we're extremely fortunate that there haven't been more accidents like this. I'll bet the FRA will come up with both technological rules (approach signals for switches off the main line) and/or low speed limits in the area of switches located in dark territory. One thing sure, it will cost a lot of money to provide the needed protection. Until all the investigations are complete we shouldn't speculate about who's at fault.
Originally posted by wabash1 cleveunionterm Use of common sense is not in you stable is it.. I know my territory and if you would understand not every railroad is the same or uses the same switches and or markers. no i dont guess you would. Now in the daytime it would be easier to see a cut of cars rolled out and fouling the main but at nightime you wont see anything. ( until its to late) the next thing is if you think you are going to slow down at every switch or every crossing you will be fired for delaying a train. ( oh yes this is in the trainmasters rules for firing someone) . so at all times you must run at track speed. kinda blows your theory out of the water now dont it. me i am going track speed. regardless. oh and as far as thinking im a hot runner i have and still do the 16 hr day get back out after 8. and do it 75 days straight before a day off .. why do you think you dont see me on here that much. duh. and i know that the first thing out of your mouth is he is fibbing the 12 hr of service law blah blah blah ...... it says i wont preform duty after 12 hrs it says nothing at all about being on duty. and its been as high as 18hrs on duty. with up to 10 hours off before getting called back out. and as far as the big four they are no longer in buisness now are they...... The thing is why are people making a big deal of this because cars crash everyday trucks a little less . but when planes started falling from the sky people ran around thinking the world was ending then things got better then for the most part amtrak was keeping a schedual of putting one in somebodies back yard on a regular basis. then that got better we have a good record but accidents do happen. The tapes will show when the train was put in emergency then how far it traveled from there . at that point they can measure back from the resting point of the engine to see where the emegency applacation was done. as far as signals go there is a signal made for dark territory for switches and is not to exspensive and is used on the old southern railroad its called a non automatic block signal. LC I thought you worked for the ns?? dont give them ideas like that they alread put derails at the top of hills so no car can roll up hill and out on to the main line. Wabash: If you can't SEE at NIGHT you shouldn't be working on the railroad! Quote: "at night time you wont see anything until its to late" Can you see the signals? Sorry, it doesn't work that way...at night time you need your BEST vision and must be alert at all times! "SAFETY IS JOB ONE" You should consider switching to a NON-operating position if you are not already in one. Recomendation: RFE or TRAINMASTER ride with you on a regular basis. You must be a NEW hire? P.S. You wrote "schedual" what does that word mean? Do you mean schedule? "Gotta Love It" REMEMBER .."SAFETY FIRST" Not walking around thinking you know everything!!! Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Ry. The "BIG FOUR" CCC&StLRy Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:57 PM Wabash- I don't know what ideas I'd be giving them. The NTSB has already said everything I have said on the front page of the NY Times. I don't think I am telling anyone anything they don't already know... LC Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:15 PM No oskar- i don't even remember a coal train derailing here in 1997. Of course i was like 11 or 12 or something. Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:20 PM If the railroads wanted trains to slow down and inspect switches in dark territory they would institute YARD LIMITS in these areas. This requires all trains in these areas to be at a speed at which they can stop short of any switches not properly lined among many other things. Since the railroads don't have such requirements at these places the crews run at authorized track speed. Perhaps the FRA will require yard limits at all locations where switches lined for other than the mainline give a restrictive signal indication. Just noting the restoration of the switch on a form will not give absolute protection unless two or more employees physically inspect the switch to insure that is indeed true. The railroad industry is full of instances where one employee aligns the switch properly and another comes along right behind them and lines it for the incorrect route. It seems incomprehensible but it happens. The rules require employees on the ground to inspect a train at a meeting point to stand on the side of the track on the opposite side of a hand throw switch since there are many, many recorded instances where that employee saw the train coming and lined the switch into the face of their own train at the last moment. Switchmen in yards can and do line switches directly underneath cars moving directly in front of them. Murphys Law applies here, if it can, it will. If anyone can find the solution for this defect in human nature please let us all know, ASAP. In spite of all this the railroads are hell bent on reducing crew sizes even more until there is but one living person on the train. Then there will not even be the safe guard of two minds, four eyes and more years of experience to control the situation. No hearings in Congress, little input from the FRA, just the railroads making those demands in contractual negotiations. It should get to be real fun then. Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:27 PM Mark it was behind Club Car near old evans road kevin Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Friday, January 14, 2005 2:33 PM the units are NS 6593 and NS 6553 I saw the 6553 in Folkston with SOO 6060 back in October Mark are you going to see trains tommow if you are I will be on Taylor Street kevin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 14, 2005 5:41 PM I wish I was but I have to unload a truck; so much fun. Reply Edit WSOR 3801 Member sinceDecember 2004 From: WSOR Northern Div. 1,559 posts Posted by WSOR 3801 on Friday, January 14, 2005 6:32 PM As to the switch being locked for the siding... Many locks are of the high-security type. On these, you cannot get your key out of the lock unless you lock it back up. Not working for NS, I cannot say whether their locks are of this type. On the WSOR we have high-security locks and brass locks on derails, gates, less-critical applications. The brass locks can be opened and then the key removed. My condolences to the afflicted. Mike WSOR cndr Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Friday, January 14, 2005 10:00 PM mark how's monday every ones off kevin Reply Justicar Member sinceMay 2008 77 posts Posted by Justicar on Friday, January 14, 2005 11:31 PM CleveUnionTerm, the local switch crew reportedly finished their work for the day and left their train more than 7 hours before the collision occurred. Although I can't say that it would be completely surprising for the switch crew to still be working at 2 in the morning since I have no knowledge of typical operations down there, however I can say there's a good chance that the switch crew had gone home before the crew that hit their train even went on duty. To purport that this crew should have been expecting the unexpected and been mindful that someone might be working in Graniteville when they approached this switch and that they should have been completely focused on looking for switch targets and other signs of oddities is at least ill-informed, and perhaps even fantastical. Jeaton, again, I have no clue what operations are like down there aside from what I have read since the accident, but its a good idea to get in the habit of keeping your switch keys with you at all times. Some guys carry extra sets of switch keys or carry different switch keys on different rings, but if your not one of those guys and you lose your keys or someone steals them then the remainder of your tour of duty might be severely limited. The mainline switch in question probably had a high security lock and like someone else said you must lock it in order to remove your keys. This means you have to lock the switch in one position or the other, or close the lock and let it hang on the chain or fall to the ground. If its a switch I'm going to use more than once and I need my keys for a derail or a gate then I tend to unlock the switch, close the lock, remove my keys and leave the lock hanging. These guys at Graniteville, if they in fact were the ones to last handle that switch, may have NOT wanted to do that so that they could trust the switch would be lined and locked for the main in case they needed to take headroom for switching, or they simply didn't want someone to steal the lock. And finally, I predict no major changes in regulations from the FRA, or any other agency for that matter. I also predict no major changes in method of operation from Norfolk Southern or any other railroad. The fact of the matter is rules already exist to prevent the sort of thing that is alleged to have happened. All of the facts are not in by any means but the leading suspected issue is the switch crew's handling of the main line switch. The FRA will simply tighten the screws on the railroads mostly using rules and regulations long in existance. In turn, the railroads will tighten the screws on us, the crews. There will be training, classes, safety blitzes, meetings, bulletins and all sorts of talk about improving operating and safety rule compliance. Will NS install ABS or CTC on that line? No. Will they install any sort of local signal system at Graniteville? Probably not. Will this accident elevate any other railroad's priorities on installing signal systems? Nope. Signal systems are installed on freight lines to increase line capacity and efficiency. Its almost completely a question of money. Thats my two cents....your mileage may vary. CP Rail, St Paul, MN Reply wabash1 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 2,849 posts Posted by wabash1 on Saturday, January 15, 2005 6:00 AM clevethe union what ever Running low on brains i see when you didnt have anything constructive to say you started in with the spelling .. this out of a guy who spells night nite. then you start the regular maybe i should be a train master or rfe bla bla bla crap and i should be a new hire bla bla bla as you see this dont bother me and you will never bother me. it takes more than that to get to me. now to bring some light to this you started mixing signal territory with dark territory. you cant do this i can see signals miles away dark territory there is no signal .... in other words you are there before you can react. Let me let you in on a something that i can tell you have no idea about engines. when you are standing on the ground looking at these big things you see 3 big lights how far up the tracks do you think these lights let you see.. hint at 20 mph we are already out running our headlights... you dont see as far as you think. problem in dark territory you come around a curve see a target wrong its to late to do anything . even in signal territory ive come up on bad targets but the switch be good. but i can see i have already went over your head with the information here and that you need time to figure out what you can lash out with or against me. feel free to do so. it dont take much intelegence to out do you. you are the average rail buff who i wont allow to get around my engines. and feel lucky .. if i was a trainmaster or a road foreman i would have all railbuffs arrested... just because of people like you make it hard on everyone else. If you want to know about railroading get rid of the 7 year old mentality and listen. seems like we have the m&m thing going again Reply halifaxcn Member sinceDecember 2001 110 posts Posted by halifaxcn on Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:44 AM Local radio news station WBZ radio 1030 had a blurb that lawyers are trying to start a class action lawsuit aganinst NS. Report stated that they were to go before a judge sometime next week for the status. Other lawsuits are pending for wrongful death. failure to maintain swicth and training of the crews. I was half awake driving to work at 6AM when they had it on. I am sure that this was taken off wire service and other media outlets may have it. Frank San Severino CP-198 Amtrak NEC Attleboro, MA Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:54 AM yeah that's bad I was pissed off when they were sueing NS I did not see any other lawsuits againts other railroads after they wrecked. kevin Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:37 PM I know it's got to be quite expensive to do this but maybe the railroads are going to have to put either a drawf signal at the switches or have some even better, have some kind of a computer display of the switches so the conductor of any active train approaching the area can warn the engineer in advance if the switch is thrown against them. Puting some kind of indicator on the switches to show which way it is thrown and it being displayed on the cab's computer consol, would increase safety as well as moral for the crews who normally must get nervous everytime they are at track speed going through a switch. Andrew Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:43 PM well NS is back on track just a little I saw a couple of trains and now where they put the masters train they have a damaged tanker on a flat car. Mark get a picture of it if you get a chance also you missed alot want me to fill you in kevin Reply Justicar Member sinceMay 2008 77 posts Posted by Justicar on Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:50 PM Norfolk Southern SHOULD be sued. What was it, 8 civilians died? Those several thousand town's people were driven outta their homes for days on end? If I was one of those people....do you think I'd sue NS? If UP got some cars on the ground on their mainline which is a block away from my house and I had to go stay in a hotel for a week and would have lost my life if I had been home to breathe the nasty things they spilled ya think I would sue UP? Norfolk Southern, or whichever one of your favorite railroads happens to be operating the train, is responsible and will be compensating those affected. I'd be willing to bet a set of anglebars that in nearly 100% of railways incidents where the public is affected or harmed lawsuits are filed and the railroads pay dearly. NS in Graniteville is not being singled out. Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:33 PM I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown Ventrue NS should not be sued the crew of the local it's not NS fualt PS [censored][censored] kevin Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:06 PM Oh how happy businesses would be if they couldn't sued due to the actions of their employees. Oh how sad, I would be because there wouldn't be any lawyers. Gabe Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:13 AM OSKAR, is the Norfolk Southern damaged locomotive in Norfolk Southern's yard, or near the Bulk Transfer Facility? What all did you see as far as movements yesterday? Reply Edit oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Sunday, January 16, 2005 10:32 AM I belive it is going to be in the empty space where the masters train is I am getting ready to go and see where they put them they are going to send 13 cars of scrap soon but I am not sure what happened to th other 2 I only saw one that got pulled in I will have the movements later and today's kevin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 16, 2005 12:20 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe Oh how happy businesses would be if they couldn't sued due to the actions of their employees. Oh how sad, I would be because there wouldn't be any lawyers. Gabe Gabe, you know better than that... The lawyers would simply switch over to white collar crime and RICO that would be sure to blossom in such an environment. Lawyers always land on their feet... LC Reply Edit oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:23 PM Mark were you driving a green pick up truck today I will have the trains that I saw on saturday and today in about 2 hours kevin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:30 PM No. I did not go out and hunt for trains today. I drive a pickup but it is chromalusion with an ASU permit on the rear window. I did see an empty coal train sitting in the siding in Martinez on the way home from church. It had SD70MAC 721 and AC44 552. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:39 PM LC Does that include the 50 that constitute a good start?[}:)][}:)][}:)] Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 16, 2005 6:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton LC Does that include the 50 that constitute a good start?[}:)][}:)][}:)] Jay Which 50 would they be???[;)] LC Reply Edit nsrayman Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Tn 22 posts Posted by nsrayman on Sunday, January 16, 2005 10:22 PM NS 192 had NS 6653 & NS 6593 local had NS 4622 QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown Ventrue NS should not be sued the crew of the local it's not NS fualt PS [censored][censored] kevin Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Monday, January 17, 2005 8:25 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nsrayman NS 192 had NS 6653 & NS 6593 local had NS 4622 QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown kevin how do you know this and do you know where they are and what are NS's plans for the units kevin Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,020 posts Posted by BigJim on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:50 PM It was relayed to us today that the engineer in the wreck, at Granitville, had actually escaped from the wreckage. He looked back to see that his conductor had not been able to get off and went back to rescue him. The conductor had a broken leg. The engineer was able to get the conductor off of the engine, but with his heavy excertion and breathing, he succumed to the clorine fumes and died lying on the ground. . Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:39 PM Mark I still don't know where the units are you got to look for your self I am not going to get in trouble chris is a hero and should be remembered kevin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:58 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill That is heroic and he should be so recognized. I appreciate your bringing this to our attention. AMEN Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 6:58 PM Kevin, I don't really care to see the locomotives or take pictures of them, that would be disrespectful. I am just curious as to what Norfolk Southern is going to do to them; sell them for scrap, torch them, retire them? Also it's a shame to know that someone saved another person's life and the media hasn't mentioned the first thing about it. It's reassuring to know there are some people in this world that would give up there own life to save another. God Bless Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:43 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by markgatech Kevin, I don't really care to see the locomotives or take pictures of them, that would be disrespectful. I am just curious as to what Norfolk Southern is going to do to them; sell them for scrap, torch them, retire them? Also it's a shame to know that someone saved another person's life and the media hasn't mentioned the first thing about it. It's reassuring to know there are some people in this world that would give up there own life to save another. God Bless Bobby Dodd of fame at your school would have been proud to hear you say that. Reply Edit Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:48 PM I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong. Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature. Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do? Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong. Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature. Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do? Only a slight pressurizing of the cab would do much the same thing with proper filters, unless you are mentioning the need for BT's and the like for those particularly bad times. Reply Edit Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Thursday, January 20, 2005 5:41 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong. Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature. Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do? Only a slight pressurizing of the cab would do much the same thing with proper filters, unless you are mentioning the need for BT's and the like for those particularly bad times. Gas masks would be better because the crew is mobile as some of the chemicals although toxic and just and inhalation hazard like chlorine when those cars derail aren't then so much of a problem, but then you get chemicals like anhydrous ammonia that require the crew run away as fast as they can (explosion hazard). Some trains have all kinds of nasty chemicals with them. Better to be equiped to deal with what ever disaster may occur than wait for the fire department and hazmat to come get you out of the cab. Andrew Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, January 20, 2005 6:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong. Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature. Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do? Locomotives do have fire extinguishers in the cab. I wonder if gas masks would pass a cost benefit analysis, though. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Thursday, January 20, 2005 7:32 PM an NS spokeman said the trains will be at a lower speed and the line will be back to sevice on Monday kevin Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:05 PM It might be a good idea for gas masks to be givin to crews when they are going to handle certain chemicals. Chemicals such as chlorine, hydrocyanic acid, vinyl chloride, toulene, xylene, cyclohexane, styrene monomer, ethalene oxide, methyl methacrylate monomer, hydrogen sulfide and other things like that; the crews should probably have gas mask just for the switching of them because you never know if the tankers with leak until it happens. Some if not all the chemicals I mentioned are classified either special dangerous. Thease chemicals are an inhalation hazard and some are deadly carnagens. For the sake of a few extra bucks, the crew now has the insurance of being protected from inhaling the chemicals should a tankcar breach for whatever reason. From a money/ greedy businessman point of view, it is cheaper and easier to purchase a gas mask than train a new crew. Andrew Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, January 21, 2005 6:42 AM Well hopefully they know what the limits are of the mask when it is tested and then make a decision on how good it is before purchasing. Trainning with use of the mask and wavers for legal purposes if a crew refused to take a gas mask with them. As far as cost analysis goes, can you really put a price on safety? The titanic was thought to be unsinkable so cost analysis was likely that right amount of life boats were not cost effective; we all know what happened there. I don't see how a safety device will make the trucks take on chemical traffic formally rail. Could you explain that please? Andrew Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, January 21, 2005 6:51 AM Just to see... Went to Ebay, looked at Gas Mask... Average price on the first page, $35.00 for a realitively new model. So, take my small railroad, and buy every T&E employee a mask. That is excluding the car men, and car repair men, diesel shop, limo divers and trainmasters and yardmasters. Just for train crews, you have $35.00 X 349 =$12215.00. Add in replacable cartridiges, another $35.00 for a four pack. $24430.00. Change them out at the rate of 25% per year, due to damage, loss, and the fact that most trainmen cant hang on to them... $6107.50. Now, add in the cost of training the crews to use them, and the cost of testing the mask every six months... oh, and another bag to carry it around in. Go the other way, and dont issue them to the crew, but instead, afix them in the locomotive...thats at least 3 mask per locomotive. How many locomotives does UP and BNSF have? Now, I have been flat switching in yard service, the most dangerous type of railroading. More injuries occur in yards than anywhere else on any railroad. So far, in 8 plus years, I have never had the need to use a gas mask. We are trained to move upwind whenever a hazardous leak occurs, gather as much info on the car, its contents, and wait for the professionals to show up. We are trained not to attempt to rescue any crew member, unless it is safe to do so. Not because the railroad dosnt care about any trapped employee, but because someone has to be there to inform the emergency crews what they are dealing with, and if we are all dead, they have no idea what they are dealing with. Some of the metal alkiloids we haul around react badly whan water is put on them, they explode. And, in case it escaped your notice...the very first thing at a train wreck is.... the locomotive. So, if the mask are in the locomotive, and the crew bailed out, what use is it? If you issued them to the crew...how many crews take their grips with them when they jump? None that I know of. The "if it saves one life, its worth it" dosnt work, because they will never be used. The whole concept of an accident precludes having the time to put them on. Our training precludes the need to wear them, we are supposed to run away upwind. I would rather the railroad take the money you suggest they spend on mask, and instead, take two or three firefighters and cops from each town or county, and train them in railroad specific haz mat response and containment. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply tree68 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Northern New York 25,023 posts Posted by tree68 on Friday, January 21, 2005 6:56 AM Our fire department was recently issued a number of "escape masks." The device is nothing more than a small compressed air bottle (breathing grade air - like divers use), an integral regulator and a plastic bag that fits over your head. It's good for 5-7 minutes. Hopefully that's enough to get you out of danger. The kits were provided via a state grant, so I don't have a dollar figure on them. Considering that a fully CBRN compliant self contained breathing apparatus runs in the $3000-$4000 range (yes, that firefighter you see in full gear is wearing well over $4000 worth of equipment), I have to believe these rescue packs run upwards of $1000 each. Now the down side. I mentioned certified breathing air. The involves quarterly tests. Since the logistics of sending packs back to one location for refill, etc, would be daunting, that means refill stations at several points. Each fill site has to have a quarterly air quality test done by a qualified third party tester. Never mind the maintenance on the air compressor itself. In addition, the pack itself must be regularly inspected to ensure readiness, and the compressed air cylinder has to have a hydrostatic test every three years. Those cylinders are carrying 3000 psi, by the way. Do the logistics look a little intimidating? Minimum of 2 packs each for how many locomotives? Plus yard workers who could be exposed, plus.... As has been pointed out, the cost-benefit analysis is everything, and from my point of view, it isn't looking very good. Even in the case of my fire department, in over 25 years I have yet (knock on wood) to need respiratory protection for a non-fire event (such as a hazmat). We'll be maintaining the escape packs, but I have my doubts we'll ever use them. Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it... Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 21, 2005 7:16 AM Im a driver for virgin trains here in th u.k I used to be a truck driver and if we were carrying chemicals we had to have hazmat protective clothing gloves goggles etc in the cab.Should there be the same rules for trains in th U.S. or is there already? Reply Edit wabash1 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 2,849 posts Posted by wabash1 on Friday, January 21, 2005 8:18 AM Ed You are slightly off. The conductor wont wear them due to not being able to look in the mirror... The big problem of having gas mask is who has time to put them on like you said if I am about to hit something i am not thinking of what to wear... ( or change after wards like underwear) i am in the process of either keeping wreck from happening or making it lesser impact. if the mask is stored on the engine i would not be wearing one anyways these same emgines are so nasty and filthy I rather take MY chances on breathing the chemicals. and the last thing is dont issue them i carry 1 grip for railroad rule books time tables and other assorted stuff i am required to carry we dont need more. Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, January 21, 2005 8:40 AM Maybe we need to clairify what this stuff is.. Make no mistake, the chlorine in the tank cars is nothing like the stuff in your laundry bleach. Whats in the bottle on top of your washer is diluted, about 1.5 to 3% chlorine, the rest is inert, water. Whats in the tankcar is 100% chlorine. I have seen the results when it leaks out on the ground. This stuff will eat the rocks. It etches the rail, and bleaches the creasote out of the ties... If, by some stroke of bad luck, you are exposed to this stuff, a gas mask will do you no good. Now, a full body protective suit, with fully contained breathing gear, might get you by for a few minutes. Trust me, the rules and procedures we have in place and follow didnt come out of thin air, they are based on the results of accidents like this, we've been there, done that. Not to lessen the heroic actions, or take away from his courage, but the engineer who ran back to save the conductor broke the rules, and paid for it with his life. We are trained to get away, contact the proper authorities, gather all the info we can on what is leaking, provide that info to the first responders, and stay out of their way. Trust me, nothing will get Larry more POed that me getting in his way, trying to be a hero, while he and his crew are trying to get a line on a leaking chlorine tank car. Look at it this way. Larry arrives on the scene. He has no idea what is leaking. The crew is dead, because they broke the rules, played hero. Now, who is going to give Larry the haz mat sheet on the tank car, tell him how far back in the train it is, and, whats in the cars next to it? What if, instead of chlorine, it was a hydrocyanid acid car? If Larry donst know what car is leaking, or if the car next to it might explode, how can he make plans to contain the leak, or evacuate the local population? Does Larry know that hydrocyanid acid is a liquid under pressure, but a gas at atmosphere, or that it is more heavy that air, and will sink to the ground, fill up ditches and culverts, and concentrate in all the low spots? Can a simple rebreather be used, or should his guys get the full suit on? Water or foam? Fans, or hope for a breeze, or hope for no breeze at all? When it all goes wrong, one of us is supposed to grab the train sheet, and get the heck away. The conductor is supposed to have it in his possesion, not in his grip, not jammed into the sun visor or on the dashboard...but in in his control and possesion. You are not going to have time to find, much less put on a gas mask, rebreather or suit. Trust me, if giving the crews gas masks lessened the liability of the carrier, we would have them already. That is one thing railroads excel at, lessening their liability. What they have learned through experience is that if you survive a train wreck involving hazmat, then one of you has to get the required info to the proper people. You dont wait, you run. You dont look back, you dont play hero, you never, ever go back...you do get to a phone or a radio and call for help, then stand by to provide the trainned professionals with the information they need to deal with it. If I can grab one of my buddies on the way out, I will. If I can't, then I can't. Think about this, Andrew... What am I going to do with a gas mask? Put it on and wander around a hazmat train wreck? Uhh..thats what Larry gets paid to do. I get paid to make sure Larry knows what he is wandering around in... And, just to remind you...railroads move more of this stuff than any other mode of transportation. Per million miles travled, statisticly, we are the safest way to move these chemicals. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, January 21, 2005 6:12 PM Thankyou for the explaination Ed, that certainly makes sense to me. I'm sorry Mark I didn't understand your answer; don't take it personally please. Andrew Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Friday, January 21, 2005 6:13 PM Mark going train chasing tommow (Saturday) if you are I will be on Tayor Street kevin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 21, 2005 8:02 PM 2005 is already in full swing here and the RR's are setting new recordsof Train wreacks already! Hoo Wee! Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 21, 2005 9:41 PM here's a question oskar - where is taylor street - i know it is downtown but near where - i might be able to make it down there Reply Edit Rick Gates Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Balto. MD 213 posts Posted by Rick Gates on Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:39 AM Just thought I would add one more little tidbit to ponder regarding gas masks. If all issues were to be met and worked out regarding availabilty, placement, training, etc., A full face mask with pressurized air would have to be used to protect the eyes so you may escape. If you had the time to put in on and get it working in an emergency, it would probably leak anyway unless all were clean shaven. After some long hours on duty, I don't think we could all take time to shave. Sounds like a relatively useless venture. I worked on the docks for awhile unloading some hazardous minerals and my mask worked well at the begining of the shift however; near the end of my shift I developed leaks due to the growth of facial hair. Maganese poisoning among other things is not pleasant and that is a particle not even a gas. I also tried to compensate by applying gel to my face around the mask. It helps but, is not foolproof. [2c] Railroaders do it on steel Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Saturday, January 22, 2005 8:46 AM Mark the street is where the CSX and NS join to 1 line near where the masters train parks kevin Reply oskar Member sinceAugust 2003 1,092 posts Posted by oskar on Monday, May 2, 2005 3:13 PM well it is almost 4 months after the deadly train wreck everything is back to normal except the speed and many other things. also there was a couple of hopper cars wrecked in Warrenville,SC kevin Reply 123456 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
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QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe Oh how happy businesses would be if they couldn't sued due to the actions of their employees. Oh how sad, I would be because there wouldn't be any lawyers. Gabe
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton LC Does that include the 50 that constitute a good start?[}:)][}:)][}:)] Jay
QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown Ventrue NS should not be sued the crew of the local it's not NS fualt PS [censored][censored] kevin
QUOTE: Originally posted by nsrayman NS 192 had NS 6653 & NS 6593 local had NS 4622 QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown kevin
QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar I have two things NS 6593 was pulled back in Augusta the other 2 was unknown kevin
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QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill That is heroic and he should be so recognized. I appreciate your bringing this to our attention.
QUOTE: Originally posted by markgatech Kevin, I don't really care to see the locomotives or take pictures of them, that would be disrespectful. I am just curious as to what Norfolk Southern is going to do to them; sell them for scrap, torch them, retire them? Also it's a shame to know that someone saved another person's life and the media hasn't mentioned the first thing about it. It's reassuring to know there are some people in this world that would give up there own life to save another. God Bless
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong. Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature. Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do?
QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan I'm starting to wonder if for safety reasons, why a cab shouldn't be equiped with gas masks as a cab is equiped with a fire extiguisher in case of a fire; the crew should be able to use a gas mask due to the chemicals that they carry and the possibility of something going wrong. Because the trains carry so much deadly chemicals particularly when some interact with others, I would think that gas masks would be a good idea as to allow a better chance to survive derailments of that nature. Would those ones you find at an army surplus store do? Only a slight pressurizing of the cab would do much the same thing with proper filters, unless you are mentioning the need for BT's and the like for those particularly bad times.
23 17 46 11
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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