TRAIN WECK IN Granitville,SC

[RudyRockvilleMD]

A DC City Council member reintroduced a bill as emergency legislation to either ban or require a permit to ship hazardous materials by rail through Washington, D.C. This bill was prompted by the NS derailment in Graniteville, SC which released Chlorine gas. The D.C. City Council defeated a similar bill recently. Their concern was the CSX freight bypass tracks in Washington, DC pass within a few blocks of the Capito, andl terrorist action might derail a freight train with cars carrying hazardous materials, and release toxic gasses.

[Justicar]

jrw249, Ah, thanks for that. I was actually planning to read my print copy of the Times when I go into work this morning. Given that the switch was lined and locked for the spur track moves the probable cause slightly more toward the local's crew having failed to restore it after they were finished with it or some other "official" person possessing keys, but its not exactly impossible for the public to acquire switch keys.

As far as I know local governments do not have the authority to require permits or otherwise control what railroads ship thru their political areas. I am mindful of the extreme danger posed by shipping certain hazardous materials close to densely populated areas and especially near high risk areas like our nation's capital. I suspect that we're on a bit of a time bomb here, no pun intended. The problem is I fear that something catastrophic must happen before anything is actually done about the problem. As I recall the BNSF has some kind of policy now in place to hold trains out of certain designated areas unless the train is expected to travel thru without stopping in certain times where the terror alert level is raised. I have not heard anything about us having a similiar policy.

CP St Paul

[Anonymous]

My sympathy goes out to the families of those who lost their lives at Granitevile, SC. The NS has traditionally been one of the safest operating class one carriers. The engineer on the local that had pulled clear of the main track, by rule is, required to ask the conductor or brakeman on the ground to double check the condition of the mainline switch and derail to make sure that they are lined for safe through train movement. It would be intersting to know whether both the main track switch and derail were left lined for side track, or just the main line switch. If both were lined for movement to siding that could indicate sabotage as opposed to human error on part of ground crew.

[oskar]

Mark it was 5 that died in November and you should be hearing trains by now a Rail Test Car was testing the rails and delayed the trains




kevin

[wabash1]

i only have one question and several statements so here it goes

1) what in the world is DTC? I know what TC traffic control RC remote control TWC is track warrent control . but DTC must be a csx thing

2) Tomubee you are wrong. it is not the engineers resposibility to ask the condition of the switch. that switch has nothing to do with the engineer. and after the first move the engineer dont haft to ask for a double check on the switch. in short the rule states on switching moves the engineer will ask for ground person to double check the route. and now the addition of the rule is that the ground person will say its double checked and how many switches and derails has been checked. but that is the first move only after that it is not required.

As far as parking the local there at that plant this might be the crews on duty point . they might have a office in this plant where they get the paper work for that days work over the territory they have. we have several outlying points on my division where this is common practice.

[oskar]

Breaking News the death toll has gone to 9 people they found the body in the mill




kevin

[Anonymous]

Wabash 1. You may be right about the responsibilities of the engineer for determining that mainline switch and derail were locked in place for main track movement, but during the forthcoming investigation the local engineer will be asked if he did all that was possible to avoid the incident that occurred. If in the course of that line of questioning he states that he assumed that the ground crew had carried out their responsibities and did double check position of switch and derail, he will again be asked if he did everything possible to protect against such a catastropic event. The engineer and the crew may be totally innocent of any negligence, and the switch may have been opened and locked by saboteurs. (Railroad switch keys are easily obtained at any flea market.) The sorry fact is that if ground crew is found to be negligent, the engineer, as most people who have suffered through an official investigation will attest, will be found to be in some part responsible for the accident. It may not be justice in the true sense of the word, but it will be the railroad's particular justice. My prayers are for all the parties involved.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

A DC City Council member reintroduced a bill as emergency legislation to either ban or require a permit to ship hazardous materials by rail through Washington, D.C. This bill was prompted by the NS derailment in Graniteville, SC which released Chlorine gas. The D.C. City Council defeated a similar bill recently. Their concern was the CSX freight bypass tracks in Washington, DC pass within a few blocks of the Capito, andl terrorist action might derail a freight train with cars carrying hazardous materials, and release toxic gasses.

The most expedient CSX way to bypass DC is to be routed via Cincinnati.....adding at least 500 more miles of Hazmat exposure to the trip and passing through additional Metropolitan areas. Let the politicians deal with politics....the screw that up enough.

[oskar]

the switch was the problem of the wreck the switch had no sign of tampering with




kevin

[Anonymous]

My heart goes out to all families who have lost loved ones in this tragedy. As an engineer myself, I ran on dark territory at 49 mph with all manner of tonnage/lading behind me. It always crossed my mind how easy it would be for some idiot with an easily attained switch key to cause unbelievable devastation by simply lining a switch. That's the first thought that comes to my mind here.

If it is determined the local crew "forgot" to line the switch, or dispatcher error, then it will be interesting to see what changes, in rules or technology, are implemented due to this. It's a guarantee something will be done--as you know, the RR's react to any major incident with rule changes.

Rick

[Junctionfan]

My deepest regrets for the families of both crews and civilians. 28 is way too young; death belongs to the old where age has naturally taken its course. If he has a family and I sure he does, I wi***o give them my prayers.

I hope you are doing well L.C. If you go to the funeral, let the family know that the forum prays for them if it be appropriate.

[Justicar]

Does CSX no longer use DTC (Direct Traffic Control)? Soo Line, or CP Rail (depending how long ago), used DTC but now uses TWC. I would guess they've been using TWC for at least 10 years.

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomubee

Wabash 1. You may be right about the responsibilities of the engineer for determining that mainline switch and derail were locked in place for main track movement, but during the forthcoming investigation the local engineer will be asked if he did all that was possible to avoid the incident that occurred. If in the course of that line of questioning he states that he assumed that the ground crew had carried out their responsibities and did double check position of switch and derail, he will again be asked if he did everything possible to protect against such a catastropic event. The engineer and the crew may be totally innocent of any negligence, and the switch may have been opened and locked by saboteurs. (Railroad switch keys are easily obtained at any flea market.) The sorry fact is that if ground crew is found to be negligent, the engineer, as most people who have suffered through an official investigation will attest, will be found to be in some part responsible for the accident. It may not be justice in the true sense of the word, but it will be the railroad's particular justice. My prayers are for all the parties involved.

I am not sure where you get your info but i can tell you know if i shove my train back and tie it down and get off my resposibility is done. no matter what is asked of me.

[oskar]

Ventrue CSX in Augusta and parts of south Flordia still uses DTC so CSX still dose it


they have done it they pluged the tanker




kevin

[Anonymous]

Oskar, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Spartanburg Sub use Positive Train Control? There isn't one signal on the line, I believe the signal goes directly to the crew in the cab. Also, looks like Norfolk Southern is going to pay big for this. Oskar, did you read the Augusta Chronicle, an ad states "Railroad Injuries" "If you or a loved one has been exposed to chlorine gas, or injured by the negligence of the railroad, please call us. We want to help."

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by markgatech

Oskar, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Spartanburg Sub use Positive Train Control? There isn't one signal on the line, I believe the signal goes directly to the crew in the cab. Also, looks like Norfolk Southern is going to pay big for this. Oskar, did you read the Augusta Chronicle, an ad states "Railroad Injuries" "If you or a loved one has been exposed to chlorine gas, or injured by the negligence of the railroad, please call us. We want to help."

Sounds to me like somebody wants to make some rain.

[oskar]

no I did not read that and I dont think they use a positive control

also how many times do you visit Augusta I might visit Greenwood February 18 or March 11





kevin

[CSXrules4eva]

It's a shame this terrible accident happened. I also understand that sodium hydoxide was carried in one of the chemical cars that was involved w/ the derailment. I don't know if the NaCl2 HO3 leaked as well. I hope it didn't that stuff is dangerous believe it or not. Best wishes to the train crew and victums families. They'll need it.

[Anonymous]

You Railfans should stop guessing and wait for the facts

[Anonymous]

I believe it actually did, but I am not certain. They said on the news that they have one tank car patched but have to go and put on another patch on tomorrow on a seperate car I do believe. That's why they are not letting the citizens of Graniteville back into their houses until Wednesday. They have to do that and transload it into some tanker trucks.

[Anonymous]

Oskar, it is positive train control. Check out the January 2001TRAINS. It mentions the sub using PTC. I figured they did. No signals near the sidings or the mains. I know CSX does some crazy stuff with PTC. I was heading home today and saw a mixed merchandise train train in the Martinez siding and an empty northbound coal train on the other track and a local stopped short.

[CleveUnionTerm]

What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site?
A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein.
Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run.
C.C.C.& St.L. Ry.

[ericsp]

Sodium hydroxide is NaOH.

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CleveUnionTerm

What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site?
A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein.
Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run.
C.C.C.& St.L. Ry.

never take switch alignment for granted. so you are saying that at 55mph i should slow down 1 mile before i get to the switch make sure it is right then go back to notch 8 for 2 miles slow down again until i get to crew change point. ... why dont i just stop and flag all crossing also .

[oskar]

mark I did not know that. Did the Local have CSX 8373 still running LHF or did it have 2 units CSX 7755 and CSX 8373




kevin

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

QUOTE: Originally posted by CleveUnionTerm

What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site?
A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein.
Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run.
C.C.C.& St.L. Ry.

never take switch alignment for granted. so you are saying that at 55mph i should slow down 1 mile before i get to the switch make sure it is right then go back to notch 8 for 2 miles slow down again until i get to crew change point. ... why dont i just stop and flag all crossing also .

FOFLMAO...

Wabash, while you're at it how 'bout having cab signals installed and electric locks on all switches off the main??

CC- Have you ever run a train at 40+ mph??? Seeing a switch target at 2:40am from any distance in your headlight/ditchlights is tough enough let alone at that closing speed. The fact that Chris saw the misaligned switch and dumped the train (according to NTSB) is testimony to the fact that he was reasonably alert. Just not enough time to make a difference.

LC

[Anonymous]

I don't know oskar. I was driving so wasn't really paying that much attention.

[oskar]

I might find out tonight the Lynx are playing tonight before I go to the Parking area I go check out the yard but Sunday CSX 8373 had 7755 with him





kevin

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

QUOTE: Originally posted by CleveUnionTerm

What kind of marker did the switch (have/use) to show its alignment at the wreck site?
A key to safe railroading is to know your territory and to be alert to all switches therein.
Never take switch alignment for granted wherever you run.
C.C.C.& St.L. Ry.

never take switch alignment for granted. so you are saying that at 55mph i should slow down 1 mile before i get to the switch make sure it is right then go back to notch 8 for 2 miles slow down again until i get to crew change point. ... why dont i just stop and flag all crossing also .

FOFLMAO...

Wabash, while you're at it how 'bout having cab signals installed and electric locks on all switches off the main??

CC- Have you ever run a train at 40+ mph??? Seeing a switch target at 2:40am from any distance in your headlight/ditchlights is tough enough let alone at that closing speed. The fact that Chris saw the misaligned switch and dumped the train (according to NTSB) is testimony to the fact that he was reasonable alert. Just not enough time to make a difference.

LC

LC,

When you say "dumped the train" do you mean put it in emergency? Do they know how far ahead of the switch the engineer was able to do it? I feel so bad for the crew and town.

I read on CNN that the previous crew forgot to realign the switch? Does anyone know if there is any truth to that?

Gabe

[oskar]

that is the truth I forgot who said that and I don't think he had that far to put it in emergancy he probaly saw the other train and put it on emergancy





kevin