TRAIN WECK IN Granitville,SC

[wabash1]

i only have one question and several statements so here it goes

1) what in the world is DTC? I know what TC traffic control RC remote control TWC is track warrent control . but DTC must be a csx thing

2) Tomubee you are wrong. it is not the engineers resposibility to ask the condition of the switch. that switch has nothing to do with the engineer. and after the first move the engineer dont haft to ask for a double check on the switch. in short the rule states on switching moves the engineer will ask for ground person to double check the route. and now the addition of the rule is that the ground person will say its double checked and how many switches and derails has been checked. but that is the first move only after that it is not required.

As far as parking the local there at that plant this might be the crews on duty point . they might have a office in this plant where they get the paper work for that days work over the territory they have. we have several outlying points on my division where this is common practice.

[oskar]

Mark it was 5 that died in November and you should be hearing trains by now a Rail Test Car was testing the rails and delayed the trains




kevin

[Anonymous]

My sympathy goes out to the families of those who lost their lives at Granitevile, SC. The NS has traditionally been one of the safest operating class one carriers. The engineer on the local that had pulled clear of the main track, by rule is, required to ask the conductor or brakeman on the ground to double check the condition of the mainline switch and derail to make sure that they are lined for safe through train movement. It would be intersting to know whether both the main track switch and derail were left lined for side track, or just the main line switch. If both were lined for movement to siding that could indicate sabotage as opposed to human error on part of ground crew.

[Justicar]

jrw249, Ah, thanks for that. I was actually planning to read my print copy of the Times when I go into work this morning. Given that the switch was lined and locked for the spur track moves the probable cause slightly more toward the local's crew having failed to restore it after they were finished with it or some other "official" person possessing keys, but its not exactly impossible for the public to acquire switch keys.

As far as I know local governments do not have the authority to require permits or otherwise control what railroads ship thru their political areas. I am mindful of the extreme danger posed by shipping certain hazardous materials close to densely populated areas and especially near high risk areas like our nation's capital. I suspect that we're on a bit of a time bomb here, no pun intended. The problem is I fear that something catastrophic must happen before anything is actually done about the problem. As I recall the BNSF has some kind of policy now in place to hold trains out of certain designated areas unless the train is expected to travel thru without stopping in certain times where the terror alert level is raised. I have not heard anything about us having a similiar policy.

CP St Paul

[RudyRockvilleMD]

A DC City Council member reintroduced a bill as emergency legislation to either ban or require a permit to ship hazardous materials by rail through Washington, D.C. This bill was prompted by the NS derailment in Graniteville, SC which released Chlorine gas. The D.C. City Council defeated a similar bill recently. Their concern was the CSX freight bypass tracks in Washington, DC pass within a few blocks of the Capito, andl terrorist action might derail a freight train with cars carrying hazardous materials, and release toxic gasses.

[jrw249]

New York Times article states the switch was lined for the siding and locked into position. It also states the FBI took part of the switch to analize the fingerprints.

[Justicar]

Wabash...I have no knowledge of operations on this line other than what I've read since this accident and no clue what is common practice. From the little video clip online of the NTSB spokewoman it sounds like a local crew with one unit was moving some cars around on this spur track approximately 25 cars long. At some point they went off duty and left the locomotive and 2 cars tied down near the mainline. If a crew member of the local left the switch open and perhaps a different member of the crew reported clear of their track warrant (or DTC block authority, not sure of Method of Operation) then the dispatcher is to assume the crew complied with the rules and the switch is returned to normal mainline position. An authority was then rightfully given to the mainline train and they discovered the switch open too late to avoid collision. Another possibility is that the dispatcher was informed the switch was left open and then he should have instructed the mainline crew to restore the switch to normal position before passing said location. Dispatchers can fail to protect against switches left open. Train crews can also fail to abide by instructions in their authorities. Yet another possibility is that someone besides the local crew lined the switch into the spur track. As for the chances of the switch points picking a flange...it is possible but unlikely. Typically a flange within the train is picked and a derailment follows. Another possibility is that the switch was defective due to it being run thru in the trailing position...another lesser likely culprit.

[Anonymous]

CSXNS - I remember what you are talking about. Not too long ago 4 or 5 employees of Avondale Mills lost there life when they tried to beat a train. I doubt it but you never know what people are capable of these days.

[csxns]

Not long ago their was a crossing collision near the derailment site could a family member have something to do with it to get back to NS.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate you clearing things up M.W.

[Anonymous]

As a Conductor for the CN, I give you my sympath to you for the losses. I dread that this is one of many gruesome reminders that "hurrying will get you hurt." No one has EVER been fired for taking the time to do things safely and following the rules. Watch your back guys... I'm feeling positive that there will be a backlash of "efficiency test failures" and the FRA stepping things up to keep things calm. I'm sure glad I took out EXTRA insurance because of the hazards we railroaders face each day.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar

I am not 100 percent sure the lead unit will be retired my friend told me that but there was many other units that died but never retired and got the torch like CSX 700 in that unit 3 injures and one death and many other that are still running so I am going to make sure he is not lieing


they are going to patch the tanker sometime tonight and it will be OK then hopefully they clear the whole thing up




kevin

csx #700 did not get the cutting torch for scrap..it was rebuilt and is back in service...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

From my understanding of DTC territory, the train that derailed could not have entered the block that contained the parked train unless that train had cleared up with the dispatcher. I hate to say it, but it looks like the switch is going to be the main focus of the investigation. I'm just hoping that the misaligned switch, if that's what it is, has nothing to do with the crew. Maybe the switch was picked by a sharp flange???
On CSX in North Carolina a conductor trainee had left a switch lined for a siding in DTC territory that lead to a major derailment. The story of this derailment was posted to make us aware of what can happen when trainees are used as brakemen; they are not to be left out of our sight. I really, really hope the South Carolina incident has nothing to do with this incident, but it kind of echoes what happened. I better just wait for the results to comment more.

[Anonymous]

I live less than 30 minutes from Graniteville on the other side of the river in Georgia, so this has been all over the TV. The NTSB spoke at a news conference and stated that the crew of the local were hired back in the 70's so it's not like they didn't know what they were doing. Here's a question for all the engineers out there, why did they leave the train sitting in the siding of the Avondale Mills plant? They couldn't bring it back to Augusta which is about 15 minutes or more away? I live less than a mile from CSX's Spartanburg Subdivision and CSX most always leaves a ballast train sitting in the siding under interstate 20 sometimes for an entire weekend. What is the purpose of leaving trains sitting when they are relatively close to the nearest yard?

My prayers go out the families of both crews and my neighbors in South Carolina.

[Anonymous]

If somebody is responsible for the open switch, imagine how they are feeling now...

[oskar]

that would be a good question for the NTSB




kevin

[wabash1]

if that engine is operational it will be put back in service it dont matter if someone died . i did learn it was dark teritory so that brings up 3 other questions. the blame naturally and the ivestigation will go on and on. but here are the problems as i see them
1) why did he have a track warrent that allowed him to proceed past a open switch ( os) even rule 99 no flag protection would require the location of that train he hit.

2) did the engineer not abide by the tract warrent( no way of knowing as we dont know what he is running on)

3) the 2nd most important question is why that switch was left open. I can come up with reasons but until the infomation is in i wont accuse anyone of anything.

these question are that unless you work under the track warrent system you wont understand why i made the statements. and these are general statements and questions not accusing anyone. I hate it that we lost a brother engineer but this is are chosen field, and the system is not perfect. accidents do happen as much as the ns wants to be the safest railroad accidents will happen ( we dont go have on perposes do we) what i am getting at is rule 99 in some way was broken.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

As it turns out, I actually do know the Engineer who died. Nice guy and young too. Very sad.

R.I.P., brother, R.I.P.

LC

ouch brother..sorry to hear that..it realy hits home when its someone you know personaly!!!!!
csx engineer

True. I always feel for anyone who is injured or worse, killed on the railroad. I know what it is to have a serious line of duty injury and near death experience all in one, but someone you know is much worse.

Here is a link to todays story about Chris Seeling.

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2782256

Thanks to everyone for your kind wishes, my prayers are with Chris' family now.

LC

[oskar]

I am not 100 percent sure the lead unit will be retired my friend told me that but there was many other units that died but never retired and got the torch like CSX 700 in that unit 3 injures and one death and many other that are still running so I am going to make sure he is not lieing


they are going to patch the tanker sometime tonight and it will be OK then hopefully they clear the whole thing up




kevin

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

As it turns out, I actually do know the Engineer who died. Nice guy and young too. Very sad.

R.I.P., brother, R.I.P.

LC

ouch brother..sorry to hear that..it realy hits home when its someone you know personaly!!!!!
csx engineer

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brak710101

This is sad to hear... I saw it on the news with some air footage, and the locomotives looked fairly intact, but the cars went accordian style, and piled up. The ground appeared to be covered in hazmat containment cemicals, but i mean, this is clorine gas people... come on... it floats....

My sympathy goes out to the crew and their faimlys.[:(]

I think the material on the ground is lading from the hoppers.

[ericsp]

Firehouse has several articles about the wreck.
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=38077
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=38093
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=38096
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=38080

[oskar]

I wonder what there going to do to the crew of the Local to bad the line was in DTC blocks hopefully they switch the switch to a Automatic switch so the engineer can check it before it gets their and the engineer would have not died if he went somewhere safe they said he died of breathing the air. they found a tape and the engineer did put the emergancy brake on the NTSB will look at the Black Box tape that the unit had.


Wabash1 I know NS units hav more than 3 didgit numbers I was saying that I don't know the last numbers the 2nd unit looks like 6598 or 6590,6596 one of those numbers and Augusta is thinking of taking away the street line and replace it somewhere else also the train came though Augusta I would be scared if I saw that train before it wrecked




Did anyone watch ABC news tonight they had something on Dangerous cargo




kevin

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Oh, and perhaps I should have mentioned it before, but I now know it is public.

The NS Engineer was Chris Seeling, he was 28.

R.I.P. Chris.

LC

LC

Our thoughts and prayers are with you;
And all of Chris' family.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oskar

...the lead unit will be retired because of the Death...

Now, i hope i don't offend anyone by this question, but is retiring a locomotive that was involved in a fatal incident out of respect, law, or just some other reason ( such as crew feelings of being in the locomotive that someone was killed in)?

[Anonymous]

Limitedclear: As you know in the forum you're not alone - We the members of your public aquaintance can see in your posts that you are one that knows the closeness required in that special world of railroading. From this event we as a forum and the rail community are diminished. May we all come to live better and safer in the time that come after this day. It goes without saying that this forum sends its condolences to Cris Seelings' family as well as to those effected by the events surrounding this tragedy - Roy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Oh, and perhaps I should have mentioned it before, but I now know it is public.

The NS Engineer was Chris Seeling, he was 28.

R.I.P. Chris.

LC

Limitedclear: How are you holding up?

I'm OK. I'm still kind of shocked actually. I only know a few people in South Carolina. Sad that it had to be one of them. It is always this way. Sadly, the fatalities are usually the last people you'd expect.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Oh, and perhaps I should have mentioned it before, but I now know it is public.

The NS Engineer was Chris Seeling, he was 28.

R.I.P. Chris.

LC

Limitedclear: How are you holding up?

[willy6]

I live 100 miles from the scene as of 6:21pm EST i listen to a live call in from a rescue worker on talk radio WSC. she reported that the local hospital may be evactuated.There is no wind and the gas is just sitting there. 8 confirmed dead., one was a truck driver sitting at a loading dock at the mill. the dead were as of 1 mile away. NS has set up some kind of hospitailiy tents. they might expand the evacuation up to 5 miles tonight. locals are suffering from breathing problems. local cafes have been donating food to law enforcemant and rescue workers because they had not slept since 3am thursday morning.confirmed open switch to siding hitting one loco and 2 cars.the picture i have from local press looks like centerflow car squashed 3 tank cars.people at decontamination site are told they will have all personal belongings destroyed. i will follow up and let you know.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and perhaps I should have mentioned it before, but I now know it is public.

The NS Engineer was Chris Seeling, he was 28.

R.I.P. Chris.

LC