jeffhergert zugmann Political ranting aside, Our engines already have satellite tracking (much of it real time). And people still do call the police all the time when they think trains are going "too fast". Police happily take the reports and then ask them "uhh.. and what do you want us to do?" "Hey, You in the locomotive! Pull over to the side." Jeff
zugmann Political ranting aside, Our engines already have satellite tracking (much of it real time). And people still do call the police all the time when they think trains are going "too fast". Police happily take the reports and then ask them "uhh.. and what do you want us to do?"
Political ranting aside,
Our engines already have satellite tracking (much of it real time). And people still do call the police all the time when they think trains are going "too fast". Police happily take the reports and then ask them "uhh.. and what do you want us to do?"
"Hey, You in the locomotive! Pull over to the side."
Jeff
Trains on the ARTC network in Australia all report their speed to a system called 4Trak, which shows the location of all trains on the network about a minute delayed. It is really great for railfans.
I've seen passenger trains displaying speeds up to 154 km/h.
Apparently trains are supposed to slow to 120 km/h at grade crossings to reduce the chances of motorists misjudging their speed.
In the 1980s, the then new XPT trains made some high speed runs for PR purposes. it was arranged for the highway patrol to track them on their radar guns which gave a speed of 193 km/h, around 120 mph.
Peter
zugmann Overmod I am frankly astounded that the last Administration, with its vast knowledge of community organizing, did not take a leaf from the 55mph speed limit boondoggle. Bet your bottom dollar that every little burg along the way would happily use a subsidized laser gun to track trains going through town, with a nice TCP/IP connection more or less straight to corporate. A whole nation full of weed weasels, encouraged by appeals to civic duty... or worse. And then there is the automated-camera-on-a-pole adjunct to impromptu banner tests everywhere and often... and all of it justified by expedient national policy or whatever. Political ranting aside, Our engines already have satellite tracking (much of it real time). And people still do call the police all the time when they think trains are going "too fast". Police happily take the reports and then ask them "uhh.. and what do you want us to do?"
Overmod I am frankly astounded that the last Administration, with its vast knowledge of community organizing, did not take a leaf from the 55mph speed limit boondoggle. Bet your bottom dollar that every little burg along the way would happily use a subsidized laser gun to track trains going through town, with a nice TCP/IP connection more or less straight to corporate. A whole nation full of weed weasels, encouraged by appeals to civic duty... or worse. And then there is the automated-camera-on-a-pole adjunct to impromptu banner tests everywhere and often... and all of it justified by expedient national policy or whatever.
Trains without Crews January Issue - Rio Tinto believe ECP Brakes are required
It seems pretty clear That Justin Franz hasn’t been to Western Australia, nor has he been to the Pilbara. Not even to the picturesque and readily accessible parts like Harding Dam, the bottom photo on page 31 of January Trains.
He spoke to a former NYAB engineer who had worked on the Autohaul system sometime between 2013 and 2016….
Rio Tinto already have a fixed block system which dates back more than a decade. The existing system combines the features of PTC and Leader. I was invited into a locomotive stopped at a siding in mid-2006. The system displayed where we were, what the aspect of the (imaginary) signal ahead of us was (Stop), the distance we could move forward (400 metres) and a recommended train speed (0 km/h). The signal post was still there, with the name of the siding on it, but it had no lamps. All indications were displayed on the two screens in the Dash 9-44CW, one of two on the train. In 2006, the train still had Westinghouse brakes.
Rio may go to a moving block system, but they don’t need to, the existing fixed bock system will do the job.
While Rio Tinto’s operation and the planned introduction of Driverless trains was mentioned, the extent of work required and the timescale indicated suggested neither that the author nor his technical source were really familiar with this operation.
There were trains fitted with test Autohaul units in 2006. I have photos of them. The whole system fitted into a box that sat in the walkway connection between the handrails on the locomotive nose, about six inches thick and as high and wide as the gap in the handrails. A separate antenna fixed to the locomotive nose was used. The Autohaul unit connected to the locomotive in the simplest way possible, having a cable and plug that connected to the nose MU socket.
I’ve seen a photo taken at GE Erie around 2006 that clearly shows the same driverless test equipment attached to a Union Pacific AC4400CW.
This equipment is the result of more than forty years of testing and trials. I myself carried out coupler force measurements on what was then the Hamersley Iron railway in 1977 and 1978, and two Professors of Mechanical Engineering from the University of Western Australia were working on recording and analysing train dynamics at that time.
In 1984, I was shown the cab of a newly rebuilt Alco C636, Hamersley Iron 3008, which included a dual screen display that already included much of the data shown on the “Leader” screen on page 31. It was displayed on black and white cathode ray tube displays, of course, which were all that was available 34 years ago.
As I understand it, Rio are only currently considering driverless operation of trains with the standard pairs of ECP braked cars, running on the former Hamersley line and its major branches. Rio use only the direct ECP system, with no provision for operation in Westinghouse braked trains. I believe this simplification is what has provided Australian operators with much greater reliability than the dual system tested in the USA.
Some history of the Rio Tinto operation is needed here:
The Rio Tinto system is the combination of two lines built independently, the Hamersley Iron line from Dampier to Mount Tom Price and Paraburdoo, and the Robe River line from Cape Lambert to Pannawonica. These two lines crossed at Western Creek, forming an irregular “X” shape.
In the late 1990s, Robe River wanted to exploit some ore reserves at West Angelas, which was relatively close to the Hamersley line, but would require construction of a new line by Robe River. The two companies merged, becoming Pilbara Iron, and a new junction was built at Western Creek.
The West Angelas mine used Hamersley Iron type ore cars and a second dumper to suit these was installed at Cape Lambert. Later, the track from Western Junction to Cape Lambert was duplicated (just visible in the photo on page 31) and a third dumper installed.
The editors slipped up in their illustration, too. While I can’t argue with the location, Harding Dam (about half way from Cape Lambert to Western Creek) being one of the best locations on the entire line, and I try to go there every trip I make to the area, the train is a Pannawonica train made up of J type cars, which still have Westinghouse brakes. I don’t think these trains will be converted to driverless operation in the near future, since the Pannawonica line is not equipped with the in cab signalling system and Westinghouse brakes are not regarded as reliable enough for driverless operation.
The J cars were named after the mine in use at the time classifications were thought necessary, (called Mesa J). They are now mining Mesa A much further West. These mines have only primary crushing, and large lumps of ore can find their way into the J cars which are bit stronger(heavier beams and thicker plate) than the other types of car. I’ve seen lumps the size of a Volkswagen Golf weighing in excess of ten tonnes, some balanced on the top of a heap in the car.
Rio Tinto have been saying that driverless operation will start next year for at least ten years now. It might happen in 2018. But they have been running with one person crews for more than ten years and the existing system has all the safety features projected for driverless operation. The savings may not be as great as expected as the whole operation in pretty lean anyway.
And as the railway manager said in 1973, the cost of running the railway is significantly less than the cost of running the conveyer belts at the two ports anyway….
OvermodI am frankly astounded that the last Administration, with its vast knowledge of community organizing, did not take a leaf from the 55mph speed limit boondoggle. Bet your bottom dollar that every little burg along the way would happily use a subsidized laser gun to track trains going through town, with a nice TCP/IP connection more or less straight to corporate. A whole nation full of weed weasels, encouraged by appeals to civic duty... or worse. And then there is the automated-camera-on-a-pole adjunct to impromptu banner tests everywhere and often... and all of it justified by expedient national policy or whatever.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
jeffhergert Norm48327 Fred M Cain Perhaps we could then turn the highways back over to the family car. That's likely to be a "cold day". Trucks will always be needed to get the merchandise from railroad yards to the stores. While I agree that cross country trucking can generally beat the time it takes on the rails. OTOH, there are high priority trains such as "The Salad Shooter" that make the trip in sufficient time for the produce to still be fresh on arrival. Socal to NY in forty eight hours (I believe) speaks well for the railroads. Well, perhaps make that seventy two hours. The Salad Shooter doesn't run on it's own too often anymore. The reefers seem to be moved on K and Z trains now. Met a K-train last night that had one 5-pack double stack. The rest of the train was reefers and box cars. UP bought RailEx. The Salad Shooter Z's started carrying some box car traffic, mostly foodstuffs when I looked when it first started doing so, shortly thereafter. Until recently, it was still possible to see solid reefer consists both ways. They had been combining the two sections eastward making a 9000+ ft reefer train at times. Even with DPU it seemed to have a higher rate of train separations. Jeff
Norm48327 Fred M Cain Perhaps we could then turn the highways back over to the family car. That's likely to be a "cold day". Trucks will always be needed to get the merchandise from railroad yards to the stores. While I agree that cross country trucking can generally beat the time it takes on the rails. OTOH, there are high priority trains such as "The Salad Shooter" that make the trip in sufficient time for the produce to still be fresh on arrival. Socal to NY in forty eight hours (I believe) speaks well for the railroads. Well, perhaps make that seventy two hours.
Fred M Cain Perhaps we could then turn the highways back over to the family car.
That's likely to be a "cold day". Trucks will always be needed to get the merchandise from railroad yards to the stores.
While I agree that cross country trucking can generally beat the time it takes on the rails. OTOH, there are high priority trains such as "The Salad Shooter" that make the trip in sufficient time for the produce to still be fresh on arrival. Socal to NY in forty eight hours (I believe) speaks well for the railroads. Well, perhaps make that seventy two hours.
The Salad Shooter doesn't run on it's own too often anymore. The reefers seem to be moved on K and Z trains now. Met a K-train last night that had one 5-pack double stack. The rest of the train was reefers and box cars.
UP bought RailEx. The Salad Shooter Z's started carrying some box car traffic, mostly foodstuffs when I looked when it first started doing so, shortly thereafter. Until recently, it was still possible to see solid reefer consists both ways. They had been combining the two sections eastward making a 9000+ ft reefer train at times. Even with DPU it seemed to have a higher rate of train separations.
The longer the car, the more 'Rube Goldberg' the air hose couplings as they have to account for the wide swings of the end of the car when negotiating curvature - Rube Goldberg 'inventions' were never known for their reliability.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am frankly astounded that the last Administration, with its vast knowledge of community organizing, did not take a leaf from the 55mph speed limit boondoggle. Bet your bottom dollar that every little burg along the way would happily use a subsidized laser gun to track trains going through town, with a nice TCP/IP connection more or less straight to corporate. A whole nation full of weed weasels, encouraged by appeals to civic duty... or worse. And then there is the automated-camera-on-a-pole adjunct to impromptu banner tests everywhere and often... and all of it justified by expedient national policy or whatever.
Of course I shouldn't give anyone ideas, because sooner rather than later the party of coercion will be back in authority, now more motivated than ever.
CSSHEGEWISCHApparently, the reason was for more human interaction with customers and better customer service.
I also suspect you'll see that in areas where theft is a greater problem. The single staffer watching a half dozen self checkouts can only be so observant.
Of course, we recently had an incident here involving a couple of women who filled a cart full of cosmetics, threw their coats over it, and tried to walk out of the store. They didn't make it...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Ulrich More recently we've got automated self checkout machines.. yup.. they're supposed to get rid of those high priced minimum wage cashiers. So about 10 or 15 years later, we've got many stores that have automated self checkouts AND cashiers.. and supervisors who ensure that customers don't cheat the automated checkouts..
More recently we've got automated self checkout machines.. yup.. they're supposed to get rid of those high priced minimum wage cashiers. So about 10 or 15 years later, we've got many stores that have automated self checkouts AND cashiers.. and supervisors who ensure that customers don't cheat the automated checkouts..
I don't know about elsewhere, but at least one grocery chain in the Chicago area (Jewel Food Stores) has phased out its self-checkout machines in favor of manned short order (10 items or less) lines. Apparently, the reason was for more human interaction with customers and better customer service.
tree68 zardoz With all this talk about technology replacing train crews, I wonder if anyone has considered how easily a computer could take over most of the duties of the suit-and-tie ilk. And already has. When was last time you saw a steno pool at an office? Nowadays, pretty much everyone does their own typing. The railroads already use "speed traps" albeit at fixed, known locations (defect detectors). Setting up photo radar at random locations wouldn't be that hard on a busy line (why bother on a lightly used line?). It would almost be easier than "pulling tapes." Of course, GPS also serves a similar function.
zardoz With all this talk about technology replacing train crews, I wonder if anyone has considered how easily a computer could take over most of the duties of the suit-and-tie ilk.
And already has. When was last time you saw a steno pool at an office? Nowadays, pretty much everyone does their own typing.
The railroads already use "speed traps" albeit at fixed, known locations (defect detectors). Setting up photo radar at random locations wouldn't be that hard on a busy line (why bother on a lightly used line?). It would almost be easier than "pulling tapes." Of course, GPS also serves a similar function.
Above and beyond your 'speed traps' don't forget that the information that gets written to the event recorder can be accessed 'on line' in real time and on at least one carrier is downloaded, retained and reviewed by supervision periodically.
Had a crew get 30 days suspension for a incident of 'overspeed' that was identified solely from use of the event recorder. Crew was operating on what they 'understood' to be Main Tracks in Yard Limits within the 30 MPH that the timetable identified as 'track speed'; however, in Yard Limits Restricted Speed is required and that is 15 MPH, prepared to stop within 1/2 the range of vision. This was not a 'newbie' crew.
zardozWith all this talk about technology replacing train crews, I wonder if anyone has considered how easily a computer could take over most of the duties of the suit-and-tie ilk.
Ulrich I think so.. a long way to go. "Nearly" and "almost" are the two words that will keep crews and drivers (and tellers and cashiers) employed for years to come...because these jobs can almost be completely automated.. almost!
I think so.. a long way to go. "Nearly" and "almost" are the two words that will keep crews and drivers (and tellers and cashiers) employed for years to come...because these jobs can almost be completely automated.. almost!
Sure, a computer could not hide in the bushes and pull an efficiency test (yet), but decision-making seems like just the sort of thing a good algorithm could do better.
A railroad could have a few "Travelling Trainmasters" that roam the system to do efficiency tests, in the same way the railroad feels that they could have a few "Travelling Conductors" driving around to places where they are needed.
BaltACD tree68 Ulrich So I'm seeing a trend here.. total automation on trains is likely a long way off. If the above is any indication we'll have some automation AND a crew on board for some time to come. I suspect that we're well on our way. Between PTC, TripOptimizer, and LEADER, getting a train from point A to point B is nearly automated now. The engineer still can run the train, but as route information and other train handling dyamics become more refined, even that will be mostly making sure things are where they are supposed to be, vs where they are. The bugaboo is at the endpoints (and at online drop and pickup points), where there is some automation, but there's still a long way to go. I don't think they have automated sounding the horn for road crossings - YET!
tree68 Ulrich So I'm seeing a trend here.. total automation on trains is likely a long way off. If the above is any indication we'll have some automation AND a crew on board for some time to come. I suspect that we're well on our way. Between PTC, TripOptimizer, and LEADER, getting a train from point A to point B is nearly automated now. The engineer still can run the train, but as route information and other train handling dyamics become more refined, even that will be mostly making sure things are where they are supposed to be, vs where they are. The bugaboo is at the endpoints (and at online drop and pickup points), where there is some automation, but there's still a long way to go.
Ulrich So I'm seeing a trend here.. total automation on trains is likely a long way off. If the above is any indication we'll have some automation AND a crew on board for some time to come.
I suspect that we're well on our way. Between PTC, TripOptimizer, and LEADER, getting a train from point A to point B is nearly automated now. The engineer still can run the train, but as route information and other train handling dyamics become more refined, even that will be mostly making sure things are where they are supposed to be, vs where they are.
The bugaboo is at the endpoints (and at online drop and pickup points), where there is some automation, but there's still a long way to go.
I don't think they have automated sounding the horn for road crossings - YET!
PTC will blow the horn before crossings, but only a continuous blast. Unless the engineer overrides it by pushing the horn button/ moving the horn lever.
Trip Optimizer does a good job, only a few times has it concerned me enough to take over. LEADER auto throttle is almost has good, their first version where it prompts the engineer is not good. Fortunately, the screen for PTC is the same that was used for LEADER. Unfortunately, PTC is starting to have both T-O/LEADER integrated into it.
The Energy Mamagement Systems do best with empty unit trains. Next up is loaded unit trains. (well, most of the time.) Long heavy manifests just kind of depend where you are at. They have torn up large trains, despite what the advertisements say . We're supposed to use EMS as much as possible, but also to use our best judgement. (Even so, if EMS tears up a train they aren't holding us responsible. Yet.) I like that part about using our best judgement. I'm supposed to use my best judgement even though they are saying, in effect, my judgement isn't good enough.
BaltACDI don't think they have automated sounding the horn for road crossings - YET!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskingum_Electric_Railroad
Note: John B. Corns (ex-B&O, I think) wrote the March 1979 Trains article cited in this article.
See also the last post here:
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3162804
And the 3rd post here:
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3426856
- PDN.
LEADER has the ability to have grade crossings. They ahd it in for a while, then took it out on our units. But then we're changing over to TripOptomizer, so I don't know if it will be equipped or not. So far, our local power doesn't have that stuff in it.
We're working on GPS based narration for some of our trains. It's widely used for tour boats and busses. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the same technology could be used, combined with a GPS measurement of speed, to sound the horn for crossings.
It would mean that any crossing a given locomotive might encounter would have to be in the system, but a national database of crossings, with lat and lon, does exist. There are around 160,000 crossings in the US - not a large data file in today's day and age. An algorithm to determine distance to a given crossing would be easy to generate, so you wouldn't even have to go out and find the exact location of each whistle board.
However, that doesn't address the folks who choose to enter such crossings with their vehicles at inopportune moments...
UlrichSo I'm seeing a trend here.. total automation on trains is likely a long way off. If the above is any indication we'll have some automation AND a crew on board for some time to come.
Back in the 80s the banks were jumping up and down about doing away with tellers.. the future was bank machines.. no tellers. So now in almost every branch we have bank machines AND tellers..
Right about the same time companies implemented technology to replace the receptionist in most offices. So now we have automated phone systems AND a receptionist in almost every office..
So I'm seeing a trend here.. total automation on trains is likely a long way off. If the above is any indication we'll have some automation AND a crew on board for some time to come.
Fred M Cain ...local autonomous trains could help bring back a lot of local traffic
Susquehanna tried that in Utica. Wait - that was a runaway that went through a number of crossings (including one busy 4 lane thoroughfare), did some street running, and only managed to clip one auto.
The steamer it hit hasn't been repaired yet, but the station has...
daveklepper Also, your automated self-propelled boxcars require private RoW and even freedom from or very-well protected grade crossings. A lot of old Chicago pick-ups and delivaries were via street trackage.
Also, your automated self-propelled boxcars require private RoW and even freedom from or very-well protected grade crossings. A lot of old Chicago pick-ups and delivaries were via street trackage.
Ah, yes, Dave. You know back when I was a kid you could go down into the central business district of many American cities and find a virtual maze of tracks – many of them in the street - that ran into different buildings and up to docks.
Even Phoenix had this. One street actually had TWO tracks in it, one operated by the SP and one by AT&SF. A few buildings had spurs that connected to both. But my favorite was San Francisco. Sheesh! One time we were riding in the family car and my Dad turned a corner only to encounter a bunch of men unloading a boxcar right out in the middle of the street! Down near the waterfront, there were tracks all over the place. Even today if you look carefully you might still be able to find some abandoned rails under the pavement.
But, of course, by the time I saw all this in the ‘60s, all of this was already in decline. Too bad we lost all that infrastructure! But I can see three main issues with this.
One was probably expensive labor. Depending on the circumstances, anywhere from three to five crew members were required to pick up or spot a car with a switch engine. I have always wondered, why is it that a single, lone truck driver can change out a box trailer but a railroad needed at least three people? Union work rules?
Second, by the time I saw this stuff, the supporting infrastructure was in bad need of repair. That would’ve cost an astronomical sum to fix up all those tracks, streets and switches.
Third and finally, trucks are probably more flexible. No need to keep stopping to throw switches or flag cross streets.
But automation and “driverless boxcars” could be a game changer benefitting rail. Automated or not, the downtown tracks in the street won’t be coming back – I don’t mean to suggest that. But as Larry Gross suggested in the TRAINS Magazine article, local autonomous trains could help bring back a lot of local traffic
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
But automation and “driverless boxcars” could be a game changer benefitting rail. Automated or not, the downtown tracks in the street won’t be coming back – I don’t mean to suggest that. But as Larry Gross suggested in the TRAINS Magazine article, local autonomous trains could help bring back a lot of local traffic.
Norm48327 Fred M Cain Perhaps we could then turn the highways back over to the family car. That's likely to be a "cold day". Trucks will always be needed to get the merchandise from railroad yards to the stores.
Well, yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I would do away with all trucks - I don't think I'd even advocate that. But, what I am wondering about - and I know at least some people would agree with - is there is a heck of a lotta traffic out there that COULD be moving by rail but is not. My question is, could automation be the answer? Could that help? We know that at least one intermodal expert is somewhat interested but I don't know to what degree. I sent Mr. Gross an e-mail but he has yet to respond.
Fred M CainPerhaps we could then turn the highways back over to the family car.
Norm
To work in the Chicago area, a lot of tracks, switches, and sidings would have to be installed new or revived.
jeffhergert For this to work, wouldn't EVERY switch on the entire railroad network need to be powered and automated? The ones to customers, the ones to and in yards. And they would have to work flawlessly all the time. Jeff
For this to work, wouldn't EVERY switch on the entire railroad network need to be powered and automated? The ones to customers, the ones to and in yards. And they would have to work flawlessly all the time.
Jeff,
One thing I should've mentioned about my idea that's important is that such an automated delivery system could be installed INCREMENTALLY. That would be an important feature. In those areas where the automated equipment is not yet up and running, a car could still be picked up or delivered the old-fashioned way - with a switch engine. Eventually the entire system could be gradually automated.
As for the whole thing having to run flawlessly, well, you kinda have a point there but nothing in this world is ever perfect. But maybe we could come close. The so-called "Sky Train" in Vancouver does reasonable well. Why not automated boxcars?
In any event, in my own personal, honest, humble opinion, something needs to be done. Our highways have become a mess and they're not getting any better. The Interstates radiating out of Chicago have been completely taken over by big semis. They are now a nightmare to drive on. I for one am very, very skeptical that driverless trucks will improve this situation. If we have to try an automate somthing, why not the railroads? Perhaps we could then turn the highways back over to the family car.
Washington DC Metro was completely automated in the beginning. A minor concession was made to have operators present who originally just poked their heads out the window to monitor the platform while they pushed the button to open and close the doors. They couldn't even change to manual operation except to put the train into emergency. An operator's death changed that policy.
Since 2009 we've been in manual operation for an accident that had nearly nothing to do with automatic operation and everything to do with negligent wayside maintenance.
BART and MARTA are very similar.
MiningmanCivilization is dead. Once a typical sight of tail end crew on shoving move. Note the backup airhose in place.This is on the Kingston Sub. parallel to the Chalk River Sub. mainline between Renfrew Jct. and Renfrew.
Once a typical sight of tail end crew on shoving move. Note the backup airhose in place.This is on the Kingston Sub. parallel to the Chalk River Sub. mainline between Renfrew Jct. and Renfrew.
B&O Caboose's were equiped with a combination brake valve/whistle for back up moves. Allowed the Conductor controlling the shove to sound for road crossings and make brake application.
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