In addition, AFFF is expensive and has a shelf life. That's good for training but the costs of AFFF that is never used may be tough on a small town. That's why I suggest that the railroads stockpile quantities at strategic locations and conduct training for local firefighters. It wouldn't be a great burden to keep fire trains at the ready with tanks of water and a car with a pump and hose and appliances.
Back to Raquel, the lady in the videos. I looked her up. MBA University of Texas-Pan American.
http://www.prweek.com/article/1266897/raquel-espinoza-director-corporate-relations-media-union-pacific-railroad-36
Excerpt from OPB (Oregon Public Broadcasting), Jun. 6
Raquel Espinoza, a spokeswoman with Union Pacific, said preliminary findings lead the company to believe there was an issue with the tracks.
“It appears a fastener that connects the rail tie with the rail could’ve contributed to the cause, but we are still looking at different pieces of evidence,” she said…
Some industry experts said they are skeptical that that alone could be the cause of a derailment that size.
Thomas Frederick, an officer with the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers in Seattle, said it sounded implausible.
“I would say that one rail fastener could be a contributing factor. But it’s got to be more than just that,” said Frederick, who has 27 years of experience as an engineer…
Union Pacific said they’ve been working with the city, but the railroad also has obligations to other clients that it must meet.
“We have a lot of companies that are depending on Union Pacific to get their products,” said Espinoza. “We have done our best to reroute what we can, but unfortunately there is just a lot of people that are waiting for their goods.”
So far, at least 10 trains have passed through Mosier since resuming after the derailment. No crude oil trains are scheduled to pass through for the next week, but Espinoza said that’s more a function of scheduling than any deliberate action taken by the railroad to avoid sending crude through Mosier. She said the railroad plans to resume normal operations soon.
“I understand how they feel and I just want them to know that we’re doing everything that we can to correct the situation and to make sure that we operate in the safest manor,” she said.
alphas I've never heard of a town with just 1500 having 3 stations for only 18-20 volunteers in my many years as a volunteer FF. When it comes to the actual handling of this emergency the pre-planning and training for a major railroad incident in their town are probably the most crucial elements in their fire attack. If it turns out Moser and its immediate mutual aid companies did not have high capacity foam generation and foam supplies already available or able to be procurred rapidly that suggests either a major flaw in any pre-planning or the lack of it. I also hope this isn't a case where a town expects its VFD to have all types of fund raisers to provide the necessary equipment [extremely hard to do given the costs of fire equipment these days] rather than the town council funding them. and I have to agree with some of the other commentators that it appears on the surface that
I've never heard of a town with just 1500 having 3 stations for only 18-20 volunteers in my many years as a volunteer FF. When it comes to the actual handling of this emergency the pre-planning and training for a major railroad incident in their town are probably the most crucial elements in their fire attack. If it turns out Moser and its immediate mutual aid companies did not have high capacity foam generation and foam supplies already available or able to be procurred rapidly that suggests either a major flaw in any pre-planning or the lack of it. I also hope this isn't a case where a town expects its VFD to have all types of fund raisers to provide the necessary equipment [extremely hard to do given the costs of fire equipment these days] rather than the town council funding them.
and I have to agree with some of the other commentators that it appears on the surface that
Most fire departments do not have foam on hand. I live in a town of 70,000 with a fully paid fire department. None of their engines have foam and they rely on the airport to respond when foam is necessary. Fortunately, our airport is well equipped; three ARFF trucks with substantial amounts of foam. As schlimm said, resources in small towns can be rather meager. From news reports, Portland International Airport had the closest foam and was about 70 miles away by road.
Norm
Electroliner 1935Pardon my ignorance Larry. Please define LDH.
Sorry - using "fire lingo..."
Fire attack lines are usually 1.5" or 1.75" in diameter.
Lines of 2.5" or 3" diameter are used for both supply and heavy attack. They've been a mainstay of firefighting for years.
Hose of 4" and 5" diameter is thus referred to as "large diameter hose," or "LDH." Five inch hose can handle upwards of 1000 gallons per minute of water over considerable distances (8,000 feet is possible). I'm not going to run down the math right now, but moving that much water that distance through 2.5" hose would probably require three lines and several relay pumpers.
According to the FD website, Mosier's three stations are "city," "rural north" and "rural south." They state they have around a dozen trucks. Based on the pictures on the sites, most of that apparatus is commercial chassis, and rather old. It should be noted that one image shows a pickup - likely a wildland rig.
They recently changed from a "rural fire protection district" to a "fire district." Their budget went from $45,000 per year to about $300,000 for operations (plus a half million for "capital outlays).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It's a small town with limited resources.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Large Diameter Hose.
tree68As for LDH -
Pardon my ignorance Larry. Please define LDH. Is it Long Distance Hose, and what constitutes Long Distance Hose? How is it different from most fire fighting hose? Thanks
A little birdy tells me---Sheared track screws. The "fastener" in question is a series of track screws. apparently, this section was relaid from the ballast up a few years ago, then some time later UPRR had "issues" with that particular type of screws that had been installed elsewhere and issued a directive to use anothe "preferred" type of screw, but listed the type used here as an "acceptable alternative.
Euclid BaltACD wanswheel Associated Press, Jun. 5 http://komonews.com/news/local/oil-train-derailment-fire-damaged-oregon-city-water-system-06-05-2016 A failure of the fastener between the railroad tie and the line was likely the problem, but more investigation will be required before railroad officials know for sure, Raquel Espinoza said Sunday. Very vague statement - I have heard a Sun Kink poisted by someone who is not involved in the investigation. Welded Rail is a technology that has yet to be 100% MASTERED by the rail industry. Mom Nature get in a good lick every now and again - heat lengthens steel - cold contracts it. The forces that get built up in the track structure get tested every time a train passes over the areas under stress - sometimes the stresses overcome the forces that have been intended to hold those stresses in check. A sun kink seems plausible. They are having temperatures over 100 degrees lately out there. Maybe that is what Ms. Espinoza is referring to without fully understanding what she is describing.
BaltACD wanswheel Associated Press, Jun. 5 http://komonews.com/news/local/oil-train-derailment-fire-damaged-oregon-city-water-system-06-05-2016 A failure of the fastener between the railroad tie and the line was likely the problem, but more investigation will be required before railroad officials know for sure, Raquel Espinoza said Sunday. Very vague statement - I have heard a Sun Kink poisted by someone who is not involved in the investigation. Welded Rail is a technology that has yet to be 100% MASTERED by the rail industry. Mom Nature get in a good lick every now and again - heat lengthens steel - cold contracts it. The forces that get built up in the track structure get tested every time a train passes over the areas under stress - sometimes the stresses overcome the forces that have been intended to hold those stresses in check.
wanswheel Associated Press, Jun. 5 http://komonews.com/news/local/oil-train-derailment-fire-damaged-oregon-city-water-system-06-05-2016 A failure of the fastener between the railroad tie and the line was likely the problem, but more investigation will be required before railroad officials know for sure, Raquel Espinoza said Sunday.
Associated Press, Jun. 5
http://komonews.com/news/local/oil-train-derailment-fire-damaged-oregon-city-water-system-06-05-2016
A failure of the fastener between the railroad tie and the line was likely the problem, but more investigation will be required before railroad officials know for sure, Raquel Espinoza said Sunday.
Very vague statement - I have heard a Sun Kink poisted by someone who is not involved in the investigation.
Welded Rail is a technology that has yet to be 100% MASTERED by the rail industry. Mom Nature get in a good lick every now and again - heat lengthens steel - cold contracts it. The forces that get built up in the track structure get tested every time a train passes over the areas under stress - sometimes the stresses overcome the forces that have been intended to hold those stresses in check.
A sun kink seems plausible. They are having temperatures over 100 degrees lately out there. Maybe that is what Ms. Espinoza is referring to without fully understanding what she is describing.
JPS1,
If the derailment causes the train to separate, that will part the air hoses and put the train brakes into an "Emergency" application, stopping the train.
If say just one car derails and drags, it may not cause the train to separate, so the air hoses remain intact. In that case, the derailed car can drag for miles without anyone knowing it. About a year ago, in Tennessee, CSX dragged a derailed car for nine miles.
When several cars in a long train derail, especially if they are deep in the train, how does the engineer know that part of his or her train has derailed. I am assuming that the engineer cannot see the whole train?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
tdmidgetThe river was about 1000 feet away down a paved road, easy access. Oil on water, no problem, the engine drafts from below the surface. It is quite posible that a rural dept had no 5 inch hose as they would never need it except in a case like this. It would behoove the carriers to maintain firefighting eqipment along these routes to assist the local depts. A couple thousand feet of 5 inch hose, adaptors, an engine that could draft 2000 gpm and 500 gallons of AFFF concentrate should have made this a piece of cake.
According to news reports, some fifteen fire departments responded to the incident - given access to the river, they certainly could have cobbled together enough hose. I found one spot where one could park a pumper within range of the 20-30 feet of suction hose most trucks carry, and it's at least 1000', if not a lot more, from the scene. Then the problem becomes the several thousand feet of LDH (multiple lays) necessary to get sufficient water to the scene.
I agree that stuff like foam should be stockpiled - Mosier FD reportedly only keeps about 40 gallons on hand, and may lack to equipment to generate the thousands of gallons of foam per minute necessary for an incident like this.
Mosier FD has one full time employee and 18-20 volunteers, running out of three stations and serving a population of just 1500.
The danger with the oil in the river would not be the oil, as such. It would be if that oil was burning. That potential draft site I found is downstream from the incident. The oil booms would be next to useless in that situation.
As for LDH - I'm in a rural department with a similar run volume to Mosier - and I can have a mile of 5" hose on scene in under 15 minutes between the 1000' we carry and surrounding mutual aid departments. But many places still do not carry it.
tree68 The river was about 1000 feet away down a paved road, easy access. Oil on water, no problem, the engine drafts from below the surface. It is quite posible that a rural dept had no 5 inch hose as they would never need it except in a case like this. It would behoove the carriers to maintain firefighting eqipment along these routes to assist the local depts. A couple thousand feet of 5 inch hose, adaptors, an engine that could draft 2000 gpm and 500 gallons of AFFF concentrate should have made this a piece of cake. MidlandMike Also I wonder why they did not draw their fire pumper water from the river, rather than deplete the town water supply. Looking at satellite imagery of the area, it may have been an access issue. There doesn't appear to be any easy access to the riverbank in that area. I could be wrong. There is also the question of a major breach, leaking thousands of gallons of burning oil into the river. That would make drafting out of the river risky at best.
The river was about 1000 feet away down a paved road, easy access. Oil on water, no problem, the engine drafts from below the surface. It is quite posible that a rural dept had no 5 inch hose as they would never need it except in a case like this. It would behoove the carriers to maintain firefighting eqipment along these routes to assist the local depts. A couple thousand feet of 5 inch hose, adaptors, an engine that could draft 2000 gpm and 500 gallons of AFFF concentrate should have made this a piece of cake.
MidlandMike Also I wonder why they did not draw their fire pumper water from the river, rather than deplete the town water supply.
Looking at satellite imagery of the area, it may have been an access issue. There doesn't appear to be any easy access to the riverbank in that area.
I could be wrong.
There is also the question of a major breach, leaking thousands of gallons of burning oil into the river. That would make drafting out of the river risky at best.
tree68 MidlandMike Also I wonder why they did not draw their fire pumper water from the river, rather than deplete the town water supply. Looking at satellite imagery of the area, it may have been an access issue. There doesn't appear to be any easy access to the riverbank in that area. I could be wrong. There is also the question of a major breach, leaking thousands of gallons of burning oil into the river. That would make drafting out of the river risky at best.
When you mention access, it made me realize that you might need ridgid siphon line all the way to the river, and I am guessing that would be no easy task if you could not pull the pumper right up to the river.
I am also guessing that if oil got into the river, fighting fire with fire, is not a preferred option.
Raquel is fluent in Spanish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1w5S67FSk&t=25s
It was brought up yesterday, that ND requires field processing of Bakken crude to remove some of the gassier components of the oil. While it helps to reduce the high flammability of Bakken, it certainly does not make it non-flammable. Looking at some of the video of the fire, it seemed tame compared to the Castleton, ND video of 2(?) years ago where fireballs rose several hundred feet into the air.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I sure would like to know more about the fastener between the tie and the line, and why that was likely the problem (even though more invetigation will required before railroad officials know for sure).
Paul,
Okay, I see the post. I had missed it yesterday. I believe he has posted that before here in the past sloshing thread, and possibly somewhere else.
If a flamable liquid finds a sewer grate and gets into a sewer, it's a very dangerous situation. Also I wonder why they did not draw their fire pumper water from the river, rather than deplete the town water supply.
Paul_D_North_JrPaul_D_North_Jr wrote the following post 31 minutes ago: SAMUEL C WALKER [snipped - PDN] . . . The weight of crude oil is such that a 30,000 gallon tank car is loaded to 28,000 tons. That creates an empty space inside that is equivalent is about the same as 36 drums of 55 gallon capacity. That is quite of bit of empty space for slosh to be set up and occur. That weight looks to be a little much . . . And the "28" part doesn't make sense, either. If it was meant to be 280,000 lbs., then 60,000 lbs. of car tare weight would total 340,000 lbs. = 170 tons, at least 25,000 lbs. / 12.5 tons over any maximum accepted in regular interchange. If it was meant to be gross weight, the next 'step' is 285,000 lbs. instead.
I'm not sure where the interpretive rocket science is needed. Pretty clear to me that Walker mistyped "tons" for "gallons" and simplified the result of dividing the empty space -- measured as 2000 gallons -- by a nominal 55 gallons per drum to get 36 instead of a little more. Why he did not understand how crude oil is measured and say 'a bit under 48 barrels' I don't know -- but there isn't anything particularly head-scratching to understand.
I continue to agree that even for 'gassy' Bakken crude the effect of normal slosh isn't likely to cause problems. But I also still wonder if very fast deceleration or shock, as in an accident like this, might still cause some observable effect. On second thought, no, let's leave the horse carcass alone.
BaltACD Overmod She does a much better job when she is not reading off a script. What do you all think? Much better than the previous!
Overmod She does a much better job when she is not reading off a script. What do you all think?
She does a much better job when she is not reading off a script. What do you all think?
Much better than the previous!
Yes, quite an improvement. Well done young lady!
Now let me indulge my inner Italian grandfather...
"Watsa matter? She's young, she's good-lookin', she's smart, how come she's a-no married yet?"
I DID pay close attention to her left hand.
Euclid -
I don't know who Mr. Walker is, but the post (apparently of 6 so far since he joined in Dec. 2015) from which I quoted an excerpt is about 1/3 of the way down on Page 1 of this thread, and is captioned as: "Posted by SAMUEL C WALKER on Saturday, June 04, 2016 6:46 PM".
- Paul North.
Who is Samuel C. Walker and how do his comments relate to this U.P. derailment? I recall somebody here on the forum saying something similar or identical to the quotes by Mr. Walker, but that was not his name.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1a5f10da18094e4696914d7f25fffe4d/oil-train-derailment-fire-damaged-oregon-city-water-system
Here is a news nugget from the spokesperson. Apparently, the derailment directly damaged the sewer system buried under the tracks:
"Our priority here is bringing people home. Nothing else matters," she added. Repairs to a water treatment system, which runs under the tracks, would need to be completed before people could return to their homes, the railroad said.”
The article also says this, thus clarifying the lack of water:
“The Mosier waste water treatment plant and sewer system were not operational Sunday. Residents were told not to flush their toilets and advised to boil any water before they drank it or cooked with it. Mosier exhausted its water reserves fighting the fire and cooling the trains. Burns said the aquifers were completely depleted.”
SAMUEL C WALKER [snipped - PDN] . . . The weight of crude oil is such that a 30,000 gallon tank car is loaded to 28,000 tons. That creates an empty space inside that is equivalent is about the same as 36 drums of 55 gallon capacity. That is quite of bit of empty space for slosh to be set up and occur.
SAMUEL C WALKER Without instrumentation no one knows what the factor of sloshing of Bakken crude is. What are the fluid dynamics of a liquid such as Bakken crude? Does the distributed inertia and viscosity of Bakken crude contribute to unstable wheel dynamics and rail /wheel interaction? Does slosh set the stage for a boiling liquid expanding vapor event (explosion)?
Euclid zugmann I don't know. A couple artciles say the derailment caused damage to the sewer and water utilities and the are shut down indefinitely pending repair. Residents are said to have no sewer or water.
zugmann
I don't know. A couple artciles say the derailment caused damage to the sewer and water utilities and the are shut down indefinitely pending repair. Residents are said to have no sewer or water.
Here is the notice of the Mosier community meeting tonight
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