tree68 Euclid It would also rule out the possibility that the derailment caused the UDE. Or it might prove that the air dumped because of the derailment, which is more likely. Maybe a wheel broke...
Euclid It would also rule out the possibility that the derailment caused the UDE.
Or it might prove that the air dumped because of the derailment, which is more likely.
Maybe a wheel broke...
Right, if the UDE occurred say 100 feet after the point of derailment, then the UDE did not cause the derailment, and most likely the derailment caused the UDE.
EuclidIt would also rule out the possibility that the derailment caused the UDE.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Euclid I guess the event controller is set up to measure time and distance from a master station point on the line. That way, it would know the time and location of all events. The event recorder is little different from the odometer in your car. All it measures is distance, while recording a number of other parameters (brakes, power, etc). You can look at your car's odometer and know that you travelled X miles since last time you looked. Same principle. Thus the investigators can look at the event recorder and know it travelled "X" distance since the brake pipe went to zero (or any other event that is recorded). The event recorder does not measure time or distance from any reference point, aside from when it was first installed and was thus probably set to zero. With the proliferation of GPS, it's possible that the actual location (lat, lon) might be noted, subject to the accuracy of the GPS. I have no idea of any specifics along that line regarding specific railroads or equipment.
Euclid I guess the event controller is set up to measure time and distance from a master station point on the line. That way, it would know the time and location of all events.
The event recorder is little different from the odometer in your car. All it measures is distance, while recording a number of other parameters (brakes, power, etc). You can look at your car's odometer and know that you travelled X miles since last time you looked. Same principle.
Thus the investigators can look at the event recorder and know it travelled "X" distance since the brake pipe went to zero (or any other event that is recorded).
The event recorder does not measure time or distance from any reference point, aside from when it was first installed and was thus probably set to zero.
With the proliferation of GPS, it's possible that the actual location (lat, lon) might be noted, subject to the accuracy of the GPS. I have no idea of any specifics along that line regarding specific railroads or equipment.
Okay thanks for that explanation. So in the case of this derailment, they would find the UDE in the event recorder, and the present cumulative distance reading of the event recorder. Then they read the distance traveled between the occasion of the reading and the occasion of the UDE. Then they measure that distance back from the event recorder where it was read, and that would find the geographical location of the UDE.
So if that indicates that the UDE occurred say 100 feet ahead of the point of derailment, it would leave open the possibility that the UDE caused the derailment. It would also rule out the possibility that the derailment caused the UDE.
tree68 Euclid The event recorder is little different from the odometer in your car. All it measures is distance, while recording a number of other parameters (brakes, power, etc). You can look at your car's odometer and know that you travelled X miles since last time you looked. Same principle. Thus the investigators can look at the event recorder and know it travelled "X" distance since the brake pipe went to zero (or any other event that is recorded). The event recorder does not measure time or distance from any reference point, aside from when it was first installed and was thus probably set to zero. With the proliferation of GPS, it's possible that the actual location (lat, lon) might be noted, subject to the accuracy of the GPS. I have no idea of any specifics along that line regarding specific railroads or equipment.
Euclid
A signifigant number of locomotives are GPS equipped and report various data back the the owners headquarters on a routine basis. In addition to reporting the specific location at the time of the report, multiple other data points concerning the operation of the locomotive area also reported - I suspect (but don't know for a fact) that a continuing log of data is contained on the GPS unit on the locomotive and it gets downloaded whenever there is a incident that needs investigation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmannActually, they do for aviation: From the NTSB's own page: The National Transportation Safety Board is an independent Federal agency charged by Congress with investigating every civil aviation accident the United States and significant accidents in other modes of transportation – railroad, highway, marine and pipeline." (-emphasis mine, zug) I know they are around every time someone runs his ill-maintained puddle jumper off the runway and into Farmer Bob's back porch.
Well, sometimes. They generally do not get involved in general aviation accidents unless there is a fatality involved. Transport category airplanes (airliners) OTOH get closer scrutiny. The key word there is "accident". Many mishaps below a certain threshold of property damage are classified as "incidents". Those simply get investigated by the FAA or the appropriate agency.
Norm
EuclidI guess the event controller is set up to measure time and distance from a master station point on the line. That way, it would know the time and location of all events.
cx500 Euclid tree68 The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero. When you refer to the point where the brake pipe pressure went to zero, are you referring to a point in time or a point in physical location? The answer to your question is yes to both, one directly, the other easily calculated. And the fact you even have to ask the question just illustrates the extent of your ignorance and the senselessness of much of your speculation. The mass media is usually just as ignorant, and usually misinterprets much of what they are told by the time it gets reported, either through carelessness, attempted over-simplification, or sensationalism. Using that as the sole source is for speculation is even more stupid. The experienced railroaders on this forum have recognized that the report of "a failed track bolt" makes little sense but in the absence of real data don't go off on wild speculation. Perhaps you should also consider the possibility it was a UFO landing and grabbing a tank car to refuel their craft, and the railroad and government are covering it up.
Euclid tree68 The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero. When you refer to the point where the brake pipe pressure went to zero, are you referring to a point in time or a point in physical location?
tree68 The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero.
When you refer to the point where the brake pipe pressure went to zero, are you referring to a point in time or a point in physical location?
The answer to your question is yes to both, one directly, the other easily calculated. And the fact you even have to ask the question just illustrates the extent of your ignorance and the senselessness of much of your speculation.
The mass media is usually just as ignorant, and usually misinterprets much of what they are told by the time it gets reported, either through carelessness, attempted over-simplification, or sensationalism. Using that as the sole source is for speculation is even more stupid. The experienced railroaders on this forum have recognized that the report of "a failed track bolt" makes little sense but in the absence of real data don't go off on wild speculation.
Perhaps you should also consider the possibility it was a UFO landing and grabbing a tank car to refuel their craft, and the railroad and government are covering it up.
I guess the event controller is set up to measure time and distance from a master station point on the line. That way, it would know the time and location of all events.
So what needs to be determined is the location where the derailment began and the location where the UDE occurred.
BaltACDThe trigger for NTSB involvement in investigations is normally death. Numerous aircraft accidents happen - unless someone dies the NTSB doesn't get involved and the same applies to the other modes of transportation.
Actually, they do for aviation:
From the NTSB's own page:
The National Transportation Safety Board is an independent Federal agency charged by Congress with investigating every civil aviation accident the United States and significant accidents in other modes of transportation – railroad, highway, marine and pipeline." (-emphasis mine, zug)
I know they are around every time someone runs his ill-maintained puddle jumper off the runway and into Farmer Bob's back porch.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
wanswheel Overmod not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened' Excerpt from Oregon senators’ letter to chairman of NTSB, Jun. 9 https://www.wyden.senate.gov/download/?id=C62F2324-0366-4F30-ADF6-B98670FEF469&download=1 We were troubled to learn that after the recent crude-by-rail accident in Mosier, Oregon, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) decided against sending an investigative team to the site.
Overmod not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened'
not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened'
Excerpt from Oregon senators’ letter to chairman of NTSB, Jun. 9
https://www.wyden.senate.gov/download/?id=C62F2324-0366-4F30-ADF6-B98670FEF469&download=1
We were troubled to learn that after the recent crude-by-rail accident in Mosier, Oregon, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) decided against sending an investigative team to the site.
The trigger for NTSB involvement in investigations is normally death. Numerous aircraft accidents happen - unless someone dies the NTSB doesn't get involved and the same applies to the other modes of transportation.
EuclidI don’t believe that what I have offered as my opinion rises to the level of accusing the company of cover-up, hiding evidence, or other forms of criminal behavior, as you mention.
Very close, however. Making up a false explanation for an accident borders on criminality. You said in an earlier post: "Now this is just my opinion, but it sounds to me like the fastener problem has been cooked up by U.P. as a red herring to take the focus off of the 600-pound gorilla UDE. That would explain why they trotted out the fastener problem so early that they were not even able to confirm it."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
cx500,
Since you have decided to answer the question that I asked Larry, why don't you go ahead and just answer it?
All I am asking is this: How does the event recorder know the train's location on the line?
cx500 The experienced railroaders on this forum have recognized that the report of "a failed track bolt" makes little sense but in the absence of real data don't go off on wild speculation.
The UPRR does not employ "experienced railroaders" then, since they and the FRA report are the source for the failed track bolt theory?
tree68The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero.
The locomotive event recorder(s) will show at what point the brake pipe pressure went to zero. The distance from the place the locomotives stopped back to the point where the brakes went into emergency will be fairly easy to determine.
Other distances can then be easily extrapolated.
The crew's account will help determine if a "dynamiter" was a factor.
Dave,
Is there a way to correlate the exact point of travel where the derailment began to the exact point of travel where the brakes went into "Emergency"? If there is, I would expect every derailment investigation to make that determination just to clarify that the "Emergency" application was not the cause of the derailment as opposed to being the result of it, as is typical.
I would think that the exact time of the "Emergency" application would be recorded and available, but how do you correlate that time with the physical location of the train on the line?
EuclidBut given that there is no way to know which event came first,
For an experienced derailment investigator, that's not an accurate statement. Derailments leave physical evidence, marks on the track, marks on the equipment, failed components, the physical position of the equipment, data recordings, observations by the crew and others. Piecing those together, they determine a cause.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
[quote user="Overmod"]
Euclid Opinions are good. I wish people developed more of them rather than follow like sheep.
Could not agree with you more. What I have a complaint about is the precise way you attempt to promulgate and then defend some of them...
[quote ... And I wish people would ask spokespeople why a fastener issue is expected. ...]
Here, too, I agree we need better information, because what has gotten to the media so far makes very little sense (and what little there is has a few people virtually going in circles).
In a sense, the track report I provided (the .pdf link is here) may itself be a bit of a red herring, in that it shows the existence of known or tolerated defects but not necessarily of the kind that would contribute to this particular kind of derailment.
I wish they would ask about the UDE.
I think we can conclude that from some of the previous postings
The issue is not that we shouldn't wonder about the UDE, it's that you accuse the railroad of covering it up. And that you have seized on this as if it were a smoking gun that explains the whole thing, before the NTSB has even finished a preliminary investigation on actual potential causes.
I thought Bruce's comment about 'that particular train' (or so I understood his post to say) making a very pronounced emergency stop the night before, almost as if it were avoiding something at or on a crossing, might be interesting, too -- for a bit later in the accident investigation, and not to throw at company representatives or spokesmen as prima facie evidence of pre-existing causation factors you think they're trying to hide along with the UDE 'evidence. (Speculation about causes is one thing; speculation about cover-ups and mendacious behavior something else again)
Basically I would prefer to keep a discussion like this sticking with identifying a physical cause, and involved with insuring to the greatest extent possible we can develop ways to keep this kind of accident from recurring, rather than finding who's to 'blame' for the tragedy itself.[/quote]
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Overmod,
I read the reports on track inspection that you linked to. I am not sure what to make of it. I don’t see any issue at all that could relate to this oil train derailment.
I don’t believe that what I have offered as my opinion rises to the level of accusing the company of cover-up, hiding evidence, or other forms of criminal behavior, as you mention.
In fairness, the UDE may be of no consequence, and even if it is, we will never know that. Obviously air hoses parted in the derailment, so that would cause a UDE. A UDE that results from a derailment due to parting air hoses cannot have caused the same derailment.
However a UDE that occurs by a cause other than a derailment could then cause a derailment. And that derailment would then not produce a UDE because one had already been triggered by some other cause.
But given that there is no way to know which event came first, I see no reason to report that a UDE occurred. For any practical purpose, the information is irrelevant. I suppose that a UDE occurred when the train piled up at Lac Megantic or any other oil train derailment of more than a few cars.
I suspect that someone told the media that the crew experienced an undesirable emergency application of the brakes when the derailment occurred, and the media included that while thinking that the UDE was an unexplained anomaly rather than being a natural consequence of most derailments. This too would explain why the U.P. has not reported the UDE.
I don’t know what to make of the report on one or more track fasteners being related to the cause of the wreck. I read a report of a train that derailed a car which ran on the ground for a ways and then re-railed. In the process, the derailed wheel cut out a line of spikes. The damaged spikes then cause the derailment of a following train.
(getting amused by some of the instigators here .... folks on the track side of the fence want to hear some more on the "cause and effect" before saying anything - UP's comment clearly came from the mind of an operating bubba. Bolts fastening rail to the tie? ) Darn Oregon Jackalopes!) chill, people!
MP 69 Portland Sub - Virtually flat & all curves P40 / F30 133# CWR on Timber Ties CTC ....
The Union Pacific line at Mosier, OR is equipped with US&S Type EL Coded Cab Signals, very similar to the PRR system used on the NEC before the installation ACSES II. With 4 frequencies used, giving four signal indications plus stop. The installation begins at the the West End of The Dalles, and runs to the interlocking at Troutdale near Portland. This is the same system as used on the Overland Route from Omaha to Ogden.
EuclidOpinions are good. I wish people developed more of them rather than follow like sheep.
Basically I would prefer to keep a discussion like this sticking with identifying a physical cause, and involved with insuring to the greatest extent possible we can develop ways to keep this kind of accident from recurring, rather than finding who's to 'blame' for the tragedy itself.
EuclidSo while they parcel out information one painful drip at a time, I will speculate. Maybe that will speed things up.
High opinion of yourself much? Somehow I doubt the investigators care about what some nameless person on a half-dead forum thinks.
Overmod Euclid So when I call this track fastener problem a red herring, I mean it exactly that. It is to distract the public away from the “Undesirable Emergency” brake application that apparently occurred at the same time as the derailment. Oh, dear G-d, how can you come out and say that as if you knew "their" evil motivation? Not to say it isn't possible, not to say the way it got into the press defied belief that a knowledgeable railroad source would propose it "as written", not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened' ... I assume that in advance of that you read the track inspection report I posted a link to, and you understand what it and its content implied? ... but why you feel it's appropriate to go straight for the pet conspiracy theory almost like a dog for a bone, and start up with accusations you couldn't possibly substantiate at this point, is ... I was going to say 'execrable' but that might be too strong in context. Certainly it's disappointing: you can, and I think you should, do better in 'the human thing'.
Euclid So when I call this track fastener problem a red herring, I mean it exactly that. It is to distract the public away from the “Undesirable Emergency” brake application that apparently occurred at the same time as the derailment.
Oh, dear G-d, how can you come out and say that as if you knew "their" evil motivation?
Not to say it isn't possible, not to say the way it got into the press defied belief that a knowledgeable railroad source would propose it "as written", not to say we shouldn't wait for actual NTSB assessment of 'what happened' ... I assume that in advance of that you read the track inspection report I posted a link to, and you understand what it and its content implied? ... but why you feel it's appropriate to go straight for the pet conspiracy theory almost like a dog for a bone, and start up with accusations you couldn't possibly substantiate at this point, is ... I was going to say 'execrable' but that might be too strong in context. Certainly it's disappointing: you can, and I think you should, do better in 'the human thing'.
Cows may come and cows my go, but around here, the bull goes on forever.
I think you are overreacting. I am not part of any investigation or legal process that limits speculation or opinions. Opinions are good. I wish people developed more of them rather than follow like sheep. And I wish people would ask spokespeople why a fastener issue is expected. I wish they would ask about the UDE.
So while they parcel out information one painful drip at a time, I will speculate. Maybe that will speed things up.
I don’t find the link you say you posted about the track inspection, so I don’t know that that information “implies,” as you say. What does it imply?
EuclidSo when I call this track fastener problem a red herring, I mean it exactly that. It is to distract the public away from the “Undesirable Emergency” brake application that apparently occurred at the same time as the derailment.
BaltACD Euc - you catch more Red Herring than the crabbers on Deadliest Catch catch crab.
Euc - you catch more Red Herring than the crabbers on Deadliest Catch catch crab.
Well a red herring is a tool to distract from something. It is like throwing red meat to the junkyard dog in order to preoccupy him and distract him from his mission of keeping intruders out.
So when I call this track fastener problem a red herring, I mean it exactly that. It is to distract the public away from the “Undesirable Emergency” brake application that apparently occurred at the same time as the derailment.
I don’t see how PTC could have prevented this wreck, but ECP brakes surely could have prevented it if the wreck was caused by that U.D.E.
The real tip-off that the fastener news is a red herring is that they put it out there as speculation without giving any reason why they suspect it. That is totally out of character coming from people who never want to tell us anything until they finish a year or two of investigation.
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