Euclid This is what I had in mind in my previous post. It is quite an informative article: “As a backup, Amtrak rules often require a “supplemental shunting device” to be put in place on the tracks where work is being performed. The device interrupts the track circuit in such a way that the train engineer receives a red signal light to stop the train. It isn’t clear whether the shunting device was being used, according to the people familiar with the matter.” http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-supervisor-was-trying-to-save-colleague-when-both-died-1459803669
This is what I had in mind in my previous post. It is quite an informative article:
“As a backup, Amtrak rules often require a “supplemental shunting device” to be put in place on the tracks where work is being performed. The device interrupts the track circuit in such a way that the train engineer receives a red signal light to stop the train. It isn’t clear whether the shunting device was being used, according to the people familiar with the matter.”
http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-supervisor-was-trying-to-save-colleague-when-both-died-1459803669
The fact that the NTSB reported the speed of the train to be 106 MPH in a 110 zone says on it's face that there was no shunted track circuit on the track the train was operationg. Nothing I have read to date has identified if the backhoe was ON or FOULING the track the train was operating on.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDNothing I have read to date has identified if the backhoe was ON or FOULING the track the train was operating on.
My impression based on the damage is that they were fouling - but we don't know yet, and I am just guessing.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
EuclidThinking about that question causes me to have this question: When this occupancy authority is granted, is it only by instructional communication or orders? Wouldn’t there be a way to actually lock a track out of service through signal indications? That latest news makes it sound like there was some sort of loss of communication over the track authority. It seems like there ought to be something more definite than a set of rules and communications that could be mistakenly omitted, if that is what happened.
PTC would not (and did not) prevent this collision because PTC is not designed to prevent this type of incident.
The work gang had authority on its track.
The train had authority on its track.
The train was operating at a speed below its maximum for the track and location where it was.
PTC is satisfied. Everybody has met their requirements.
The problem is that the backhoe WASN'T where it was supposed to be. It was on or fouling the live track on which the train was operating. PTC can't detect that, PTC doesn't protect against that. The protection against somebody randomly driving a vehicle across a live track rests with the operator of the vehicle.
This is not to say there weren't possible lapses in the processes. The backhoe driver may not have been told the other track was a live track. Any number of things could have gone wrong. But the other possibility is that the track was properly protected for the work being done, the backhoe operator could have been told not to foul the other track , the train, the dispatcher and everybody else on the gang could have been doing exactly as required and it was just the backhoe operator made a decision to foul the other track at exactly the wrong time.
The NTSB will have to figure that one out.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BaltACDThe fact that the NTSB reported the speed of the train to be 106 MPH in a 110 zone says on it's face that there was no shunted track circuit on the track the train was operationg. Nothing I have read to date has identified if the backhoe was ON or FOULING the track the train was operating on.
I would think that the train hit the backhoe would be evidence that the backhoe was on or fouling the track the train was operating on. Normally trains don't reach out and smack something not on their track.
BaltACD Euclid This is what I had in mind in my previous post. It is quite an informative article: “As a backup, Amtrak rules often require a “supplemental shunting device” to be put in place on the tracks where work is being performed. The device interrupts the track circuit in such a way that the train engineer receives a red signal light to stop the train. It isn’t clear whether the shunting device was being used, according to the people familiar with the matter.” http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-supervisor-was-trying-to-save-colleague-when-both-died-1459803669 The fact that the NTSB reported the speed of the train to be 106 MPH in a 110 zone says on it's face that there was no shunted track circuit on the track the train was operationg. Nothing I have read to date has identified if the backhoe was ON or FOULING the track the train was operating on.
The article says it is not clear whether the shunting device was being used. My only point was that such a device was part of the practice to take a track out of service with full protection, as I speculated about earlier. Why it was not used, or why it was used, but did not work is not clear.
Going back to Schumer’s reassurance about the “20-step-protocol,” some have said that if rules are too complex, that alone raises a danger. They have a point. Without seeing the rules, it is hard to assess that possibility of complicated rules being at fault.
However, some of the coverage of this crash refers to confusion in the communication of the protection process being caused by the shift change. The frivolity of that excuse leads me to conclude rules and authority alone is a defective form of protection.
dehusman BaltACD The fact that the NTSB reported the speed of the train to be 106 MPH in a 110 zone says on it's face that there was no shunted track circuit on the track the train was operationg. Nothing I have read to date has identified if the backhoe was ON or FOULING the track the train was operating on. I would think that the train hit the backhoe would be evidence that the backhoe was on or fouling the track the train was operating on. Normally trains don't reach out and smack something not on their track.
BaltACD The fact that the NTSB reported the speed of the train to be 106 MPH in a 110 zone says on it's face that there was no shunted track circuit on the track the train was operationg. Nothing I have read to date has identified if the backhoe was ON or FOULING the track the train was operating on.
I think Balt’s point was that we don’t know whether the backhoe was on or fouling the live track. Obviously we do know that it was one or the other.
dehusman Euclid Thinking about that question causes me to have this question: When this occupancy authority is granted, is it only by instructional communication or orders? Wouldn’t there be a way to actually lock a track out of service through signal indications? That latest news makes it sound like there was some sort of loss of communication over the track authority. It seems like there ought to be something more definite than a set of rules and communications that could be mistakenly omitted, if that is what happened. PTC would not (and did not) prevent this collision because PTC is not designed to prevent this type of incident. The work gang had authority on its track. The train had authority on its track. The train was operating at a speed below its maximum for the track and location where it was. PTC is satisfied. Everybody has met their requirements.
Euclid Thinking about that question causes me to have this question: When this occupancy authority is granted, is it only by instructional communication or orders? Wouldn’t there be a way to actually lock a track out of service through signal indications? That latest news makes it sound like there was some sort of loss of communication over the track authority. It seems like there ought to be something more definite than a set of rules and communications that could be mistakenly omitted, if that is what happened.
The article that I quoted from in reference to the point about PTC contained quotes by experts that claimed that PTC would have protected against this type of collision. Unfortunately, the article is now locked except for those who are registered.
"The train was operating at a speed below its maximum for the track and location where it was."
I'm wondering about the speed. The train was at 106 mph, close to top track speed. Is is common to run that fast through a work zone? The NEC trains I've been on usually slow down considerably and toot their horns a lot when passing MOW crews.
/Mr Lynn
EuclidThe article says it is not clear whether the shunting device was being used. My only point was that such a device was part of the practice to take a track out of service with full protection, as I speculated about earlier. Why it was not used, or why it was used, but did not work is not clear.
The shunting device would be used on the track on which the work was being performed. If the train was not on the track on which the work was being performed then the shunting device was irrelevant.
If the backhoe was on or fouling the track the train was on, a track other than the track on which the work was being performed, then the shunting device is irrelevant.
MrLynnI'm wondering about the speed. The train was at 106 mph, close to top track speed. Is is common to run that fast through a work zone? The NEC trains I've been on usually slow down considerably and toot their horns a lot when passing MOW crews.
Depending on the work being done and the clearance to workers on the ground, the speed past a gang may be restricted. If all the workers are clear of the track by 25 feet and anybody on the adjacent track is in the cab of a piece of work equipment, then they may have been able to do max speed. That's another piece of the puzzle that says the backhoe was not where it was supposed to be. Everything else looks like it was supposed to be set up for the workers to be clear of active tracks (and probably the track being worked on). The way the dispatcher routed the train, the way the train was moving, all consistent with the workers being on the ground clear of the active track and the track being worked on.
dehusman Euclid The article says it is not clear whether the shunting device was being used. My only point was that such a device was part of the practice to take a track out of service with full protection, as I speculated about earlier. Why it was not used, or why it was used, but did not work is not clear. The shunting device would be used on the train on which the work was being performed. If the train was not on the track on which the work was being performed then the shunting device was irrelevant. If the backhoe was on or fouling the track the train was on, a track other than the track on which the work was being performed, then the shunting device is irrelevant.
Euclid The article says it is not clear whether the shunting device was being used. My only point was that such a device was part of the practice to take a track out of service with full protection, as I speculated about earlier. Why it was not used, or why it was used, but did not work is not clear.
The shunting device would be used on the train on which the work was being performed. If the train was not on the track on which the work was being performed then the shunting device was irrelevant.
I think the point is that the shunt would be used to protect all tracks that the equipment is either on or fouling. Ideally, this system would enable the operator of the equipment to have direct feedback indicating that the track he is fouling (either by being on it or reaching to foul it) is locked out of service.
The idea would be to provide an automatically enforced system of interlocking that would protect against this nonsene of distant parties being confused by a shift change.
What I find most interesting is the near universal assumption by the media that the backhoe was in the wrong place due to its operator and supervisor making what is being universally referred to as a “colossal mistake.”
At this point, I must conclude that either the backhoe was in the wrong place, or the train was in the wrong place. It could have been either one. The position of both the train and the backhoe was determined by a system that could have made the colossal mistake in granting authority to either the backhoe or the train.
It appears to me that the media cannot assimilate the possibility that the train could have been mistakenly routed. They apparently are projecting their view based on grade crossing crashes where the vehicle is always where it is not supposed to be. In a grade crossing crash, there is no possibility that the train was in the wrong place. So the media appears to be projecting that grade crossing assumption to this backhoe crash, with the backhoe just thought to be one more item that trains hit as they do at grade crossings.
EuclidAt this point, I must conclude that either the backhoe was in the wrong place, or the train was in the wrong place. It could have been either one.
This is not a 'conclusion' -- it does not matter to the accident who was in the 'wrong' place. The correct way to address this situation is not to assign blame to the guilty (or call them 'idiots' whether "merited by their actions" or not), nor is it to find better and more complete ways to specify who has the priority or right-of-way in standard operating procedure. What's needed is a way to pick up on the 'interference condition', notify both parties promptly (or, in the case of a backhoe fouling an adjacent track envelope, pre-emptively), and then have your drilled-in 'standard operating procedure' act to eliminate the condition before the accident can occur.
Note that there's a difference between this and an edict like 'starting as of now there will be no longer be hard landings at this airport' ...
EuclidI think the point is that the shunt would be used to protect all tracks that the equipment is either on or fouling. Ideally, this system would enable the operator of the equipment to have direct feedback indicating that the track he is fouling (either by being on it or reaching to foul it) is locked out of service. The idea would be to provide an automatically enforced system of interlocking that would protect against this nonsene of distant parties being confused by a shift change
A shunt is two C clamps with a piece of wire with a resistor that you clamp to both rails to cause the signal system to display an occupancy. I've used them many times. If sets the signals to STOP on the track they are applied. They are used on the track that the work is being performed in order to create a posititive occupancy on that track. It does not in any way communicate with anything else.
You do not put a shunt on a "live" track because its a track on which train traffic is permitted.
All the shunts in the world ONLY work if the people working on the tracks stay on the tracks that are shunted. If the people working on the tracks foul any other track, then they are outside their work area and outside their protection. This isn't rocket science. It wan't that the backhoe operator was just a bit off center and the train scraped the backhoe, he was substantially fouling the other track in order for the damage to be enough to crush the front of the engine and derail it. The question we don't know the answer to is why.
Can we get a picture of circut shunts I cant seem to find any on google images
Still waiting for an answer why train #89 was authorized for 110 MPH on track 3 adjaecent to work track 4 ? Why was 89 not put on track 2 which would have been away from work zone. Sunday morning certainly is not a busy time on the RR at that location..
http://www.sandcco.com/testing%20shunts.htm#bag
are these the Shunts?
dehusman Euclid I think the point is that the shunt would be used to protect all tracks that the equipment is either on or fouling. Ideally, this system would enable the operator of the equipment to have direct feedback indicating that the track he is fouling (either by being on it or reaching to foul it) is locked out of service. The idea would be to provide an automatically enforced system of interlocking that would protect against this nonsene of distant parties being confused by a shift change A shunt is two C clamps with a piece of wire with a resistor that you clamp to both rails to cause the signal system to display an occupancy. I've used them many times. If sets the signals to STOP on the track they are applied. They are used on the track that the work is being performed in order to create a posititive occupancy on that track. It does not in any way communicate with anything else. You do not put a shunt on a "live" track because its a track on which train traffic is permitted. All the shunts in the world ONLY work if the people working on the tracks stay on the tracks that are shunted. If the people working on the tracks foul any other track, then they are outside their work area and outside their protection. This isn't rocket science. It wan't that the backhoe operator was just a bit off center and the train scraped the backhoe, he was substantially fouling the other track in order for the damage to be enough to crush the front of the engine and derail it. The question we don't know the answer to is why.
Euclid I think the point is that the shunt would be used to protect all tracks that the equipment is either on or fouling. Ideally, this system would enable the operator of the equipment to have direct feedback indicating that the track he is fouling (either by being on it or reaching to foul it) is locked out of service. The idea would be to provide an automatically enforced system of interlocking that would protect against this nonsene of distant parties being confused by a shift change
All I said was to outline a basic concept of positively taking a track out of service. Some of this may be current practice and some may not. That is why I used the term "ideally" in refering to the basic concept. But you act like you find major disagreement with my point, and yet none of what you say conflicts with what I said.
One thing about what you say puzzles me. You keep saying that the backhoe was fouling the track, therefore you imply that the mistake was that the backhoe was where it was not authorized to be. How do you reach that conclusion? The fact that the backhoe was struck by the train does not prove that the backhoe was in the wong place. How can be so sure that the train was not on the wrong track?
Perhaps Dave H can expand on this, but I've done considerable photography of MOW in progress and never seen a train allowed through at track speed no matter how far away the crew was from the track. Slow orders and noise have always been enforced. NEC may have different rules.
Norm
dehusman It wan't that the backhoe operator was just a bit off center and the train scraped the backhoe, he was substantially fouling the other track in order for the damage to be enough to crush the front of the engine and derail it.
Has that actually been substantiated? I'd think that at 110 mph relative velocity even a slight 'interference' might transfer enough momentum or shock to pull the backhoe into closer contact and thence destructive 'disassembly'.
The point that Euclid is making is I think a better one: who thought up the idea that merely shunting a track would justify unrestricted 110mph operation on a closely adjacent track, with workers present? Most states have now adopted 'move over' laws to keep traffic at least a lane separate from presumably-working 'responders' even when the usual sorts of speed reductions for emergency flashing lights are being observed.
Note I'm not saying this accident would have been 'prevented' if the backhoe had fouled and been contacted at some lower, protected speed. What I am wondering about is whether the force that drove the incident would have been reduced, and perhaps greatly reduced, quite probably to a degree that would not have produced the derailment observed or the secondary impact to the train where it occurred.
RME Euclid At this point, I must conclude that either the backhoe was in the wrong place, or the train was in the wrong place. It could have been either one.
Euclid At this point, I must conclude that either the backhoe was in the wrong place, or the train was in the wrong place. It could have been either one.
Finding the cause of this accident does indeed require discovering who was to blame.
My point is that either the train or the backhoe had to be in an unauthorized location in order for the collision to have occurred. The near universal assumption in the news is that the backhoe was in an unauthorized location. I have already seen one comment calling the track workers "idiots." No sign yet of the Darwin Award.
EuclidFinding the cause of this accident does indeed require discovering who was to blame. My point is that either the train or the backhoe had to be in an unauthorized location in order for the collision to have occurred.
And part of my point is that, unless the train were dramatically overspeeding, "it" could not possibly have been in an 'unauthorized location' in and of itself ... or arguably with any responsibility or blame appertaining to any of its crew.
Now, I happen to agree completely that the likely "blame" for this incident rests squarely with whoever (and it might be more than one person, or set of procedures) routed the Palmetto on a track adjacent to a work zone at 110 mph. I (and this is 'personally') think that very little if any blame applies to the train crew either for not 'recognizing' they were on such a track, or for doing something -- what that something might have been, I don't really know, at that speed -- to slow down the train when they first saw or encountered the work zone and recognized it was adjacent to the track they were on. The train had nowhere to go, just as an earlier counterpart had nowhere to 'dodge' at Gunpow/Chase.
Now, I was reminded of that earlier video where the railcar(?) contacts the material handler that turns into the ROW unexpectedly. Something I expect to 'develop' here is that the backhoe people EXPECTED that 'adjacent' track to be clear of traffic, as indicated in an earlier post here, and thought they could encroach on it when moving to work in some way... perhaps even expecting the approaching high-speed train would surely be 'one track further over'...
(no need here to capitalize any letters in 'assume'; we'd all get it but it's too much gallows humor just yet...)
Euclid No sign yet of the Darwin Award.
Why should it? At this point, it doesn't appear to apply.
'Nuf said.
RME,
I see your point. I should not conclude that either the train or the backhoe had to be in an unauthorized location is the wrong way to state it. The backhoe, being mobile, could have strayed into an unauthorized location, but the train could not. It had to be running in an authorized location. These are the two possibilities that I see:
The backhoe strayed into an unauthorized location where it was struck by the train.
The backhoe was struck while in an authorized location which was mistakenly granted in conflict with the train.
tree68 Euclid No sign yet of the Darwin Award. Why should it? At this point, it doesn't appear to apply. 'Nuf said.
The answer to your question is in the full context of what I said which was:
"I have already seen one comment calling the track workers "idiots." No sign yet of the Darwin Award."
Euclid"I have already seen one comment calling the track workers "idiots." No sign yet of the Darwin Award."
You are absolutely correct - one comment calling the track workers idiots.
And no one (except you) has mentioned Darwin.
One person, out of all the comments - including those by actual railroaders - questions the abilities of the MOW crew. From where I sit, most seem to think a breakdown of communications and/or procedure is probably chiefly the cause.
Must be no one feels this is a "Darwin moment..."
And that's why it hasn't been mentioned. Until now.
tree68 Euclid "I have already seen one comment calling the track workers "idiots." No sign yet of the Darwin Award." You are absolutely correct - one comment calling the track workers idiots. And no one (except you) has mentioned Darwin. One person, out of all the comments - including those by actual railroaders - questions the abilities of the MOW crew. From where I sit, most seem to think a breakdown of communications and/or procedure is probably chiefly the cause. Must be no one feels this is a "Darwin moment..." And that's why it hasn't been mentioned. Until now.
Euclid "I have already seen one comment calling the track workers "idiots." No sign yet of the Darwin Award."
Well I would not get too worried about it. I suspect that the one comment portends more to follow. And usually the Darwin Award runs right along with the moron and idiot lables. In any case, my larger point is that there seems to be a widespread consensus in the news media that the backhoe people were at fault. That is where the one "idiot" comment comes from. As I mentioned earlier, there seems to be an assumption that the track people were at fault because they were in the path of the train. In my opinion, that assumption comes from grade crossing crashes because the media is familar with them and they involve striking vehicles on the track similar to the situation with the backhoe.
EuclidWell I would not get too worried about it. I suspect that the one comment portends more to follow. And usually the Darwin Award runs right along with the moron and idiot lables. In any case, my larger point is that there seems to be a widespread consensus in the news media that the backhoe people were at fault. That is where the one "idiot" comment comes from. As I mentioned earlier, there seems to be an assumption that the track people were at fault because they were in the path of the train. In my opinion, that assumption comes from grade crossing crashes because the media is familar with them and they involve striking vehicles on the track similar to the situation with the backhoe.
The Darwin awards and idiot comments were thoroughly hashed over to the point of nausea in the other thread. Let's put that subject to bed. It does not belong here.
Norm48327The Darwin awards and idiot comments were thoroughly hashed over to the point of nausea in the other thread. Let's put that subject to bed. It does not belong here.
Amen
Last nite's PBS NewsHour showed some overhead video of what looks like was hit. The piece is about 5 minutes in. I couldn't tell what exactly the wreckage was, maybe someone else will.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/episode/pbs-newshour-full-episode-april-4-2016/
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