BaltACDStarting a B-29 - amazing how the shutter speed of the camera and the rotational speed of the engines makes the props appear to go clockwise, counter clockwise and some times stand still.
You've probably seen the video of the helicopter taking off with the rotor looking like it's not turning at all.
All of those bombers look so big, until you compare them to the FedEx plane in the background. I spoke to a C5A crew once that said they'd carried a complete B17 in the cargo hold...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 BaltACD Starting a B-29 - amazing how the shutter speed of the camera and the rotational speed of the engines makes the props appear to go clockwise, counter clockwise and some times stand still. You've probably seen the video of the helicopter taking off with the rotor looking like it's not turning at all. All of those bombers look so big, until you compare them to the FedEx plane in the background. I spoke to a C5A crew once that said they'd carried a complete B17 in the cargo hold...
BaltACD Starting a B-29 - amazing how the shutter speed of the camera and the rotational speed of the engines makes the props appear to go clockwise, counter clockwise and some times stand still.
Without wings attached and extended I suspect.
I was at the Combat Air Museum at Topeka a couple of years ago - what impressed me most was how tiny most of the fighters were. From WW I through WW II.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWithout wings attached and extended I suspect.
I think that's a given.
BaltACDI was at the Combat Air Museum at Topeka a couple of years ago - what impressed me most was how tiny most of the fighters were. From WW I through WW II.
I've had a couple of opportunities to see a P/F51 flying in formation with a modern jet fighter. The difference is startling.
My MIL was going thru some of my late FIL's stuff yesterday she still has some stuff she has to go thru 3 years later. Well in it was a letter from his father to his mother. It had to been right after the invasion of Sicily as that was the only time the 82nd Airbourne jumped in the Mediterrian theator of the war. In the letter he wrote ran into a couple boys from the 82nd today while on a pass off base. They saw my wings and asked what I did in as the called it the Chicken Air Corp. I told them I was a Ball Turret Gunner on a B-24 and asked if they wanted to swap positions with me. Both of them said hell no and swore that man has a bigger set of balls than we do.
Firelock76 Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw. You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion. What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time!
Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw.
You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion.
What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time!
I think you mean radial engine.
BLS53 Firelock76 Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw. You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion. What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time! I think you mean radial engine.
No sir, rotary engine, like this one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEEmdz7-Fk
Be patient, starting one of those things ain't easy, but once they start they have to be seen (and heard) to be believed!
However, many builders of World War One fighter replicas do use radial engines, both for ease in starting and handling, and also original rotarys are a bit hard to find.
Firelock76No sir, rotary engine, like this one... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEEmdz7-Fk Be patient, starting one of those things ain't easy, but once they start they have to be seen (and heard) to be believed! However, many builders of World War One fighter replicas do use radial engines, both for ease in starting and handling, and also original rotarys are a bit hard to find.
With the amount of rotating mass, I suspect the rotary's have a lot of torque steer.
BaltACD With the amount of rotating mass, I suspect the rotary's have a lot of torque steer.
That goes without saying....
The more successful rotary engine fighter pilots learned to make use of the gyroscopic action of the rotary engine. The rotary engines did not throttle down very well, so the usual way to reduce power was to intermittently cut the ignition. This is why old movies often used the engine cutting out for planes in distress.
Cutting out the ignition is just what my old man said. A rotary engine can only run wide open, there is no throttle. Also, "torque steer" as you say made them dangerous to fly. The Sopwith Pup and Camels were very difficult and killed a lot of novice pilots.
In the fairly recent film, "The Red Baron" the planes are all CGI and they do show the engines spinning. In the film, "The Blue Max' they utilise actual aircraft and they have radials.
The Sopwith Pups weren't too bad, and were actually fairly easy to fly. The Camels on the other hand could be killers if the pilots weren't aware what they were dealing with. With a much more powerful engine and a short coupling with the control surfaces on the tail the Camel could be deadly to an inexperienced pilot.
If I remember what I've read correctly, a turn to the left combined with the gyroscopic force of the engine would pull the nose up, but a turn to the right would put the nose down, as in RIGHT NOW down. Handy for getting yourself out of a tight spot in a dogfight, but disastrous if you did it close to the ground. I've got a book called "No Parachute" written by a Royal Flying Corps/ Royal Air Force veteran who flew both Pups and Camels, and he said his squadron was lucky, they recieved their Camels while deployed to Britain for home defense. Sopwith factory reps gave them a thorough briefing on the new airplane so they knew what to expect. Too many squadrons in France however didn't get any briefings at all, all they got was "Here's your new aeroplanes lads, have fun!"
Be that as it may, the Sopwith Camel shot down more German planes than any other Allied fighter of the war. Once it was mastered it was a superb fighter.
Oh yeah, that "Red Baron" movie that came out a few years back has all CGI airplanes in it, so I didn't bother with it, but I just love "The Blue Max!" No CGI in that one brother, them's real airplanes, even if they're all replicas.
If you're going to do an aviation film do it with the real things. The planes are the real stars as far as I'm concerned!
I've always wondered why someone didn't build a rotary engine that turned the other direction. It would seem like an easy way for the pilot to get out of trouble.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Firelock76If I remember what I've read correctly, a turn to the left combined with the gyroscopic force of the engine would pull the nose up, but a turn to the right would put the nose down, as in RIGHT NOW down. Handy for getting yourself out of a tight spot in a dogfight, but disastrous if you did it close to the ground.
You were supposed to learn the response to gyro torque in the penguins, long before leaving the ground. I'm not sure how many units transitioned without warning from normal crankshaft engines to rotaries.
When I was learning to fly WW1 aircraft, my 'instructor' mentioned that an effective combat technique with a rotary-equipped aircraft was simply to walk the rudder pedals when firing at an aircraft ahead of you. The torque reaction created a cone of fire which spread out proportionally to the amount of rudder, a far more deadly technique than trying to lead an aircraft properly under dogfight conditions.
You have already realized, I'm sure, that airplanes don't 'turn to the right' merely by putting the rudder over as in a boat. You turn the wings, and the wings fly the fuselage in the turn; the rudder just lines things up aerodynamically along the 'flight path'. Since getting the wing surfaces involves a roll, the result is not that you get sudden gyro torque moment but that turns in one direction initiate much more quickly than in the other, and you may be more disposed to enter the first stages of a stall in the 'preferred' direction especially in the heat of combat. Here, tolerating a little sideslip (or, alternatively, letting the right-angle torque moment put nose down and tail up in preparation for gaining airspeed for when you get the roll component out of the spin) will be of some use to you if you've got your reactions right.
Firelock, Overmod, thanks, I just learned a lot! I read that book, "No Parachutes" by Arch Whitehouse as I recall. I have a beer glass I acquired in England last year at a beer festival in Kingston that celebrates the 100th anniversary of the Sopwith Camel. The Sopwith factory was in Kingston, southwest of central London. Twickenham Ales is some great stuff! Not to change the subject.
'54, nothing wrong with changing the subjest if the new subject is ale, beer, wine, champagne, or the hard stuff, and I'm sure a lot of World War One aviators would agree!
Back to rotarys, I found this neat video where a nice young man gives us a tutorial on flying a rotary-engined Sopwith Pup. Very interesting and enjoyable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRT3w4CxZk
Overmod mentioned "penguins." For those who don't know, those were clipped-wing aircraft with rotary engines used for pilot familiarization with the same. They weren't capable of flying, strictly basic training "run-up-and-taxi" machines. They were used by the French, but I'm not sure if any other air service used them or something like them during the First War, I've only read about the French ones.
Reading the comments on that video, it's clear that some people just can't wrap their head around a rotary engine...
Firelock76'54, nothing wrong with changing the subjest if the new subject is ale, beer, wine, champagne, or the hard stuff, and I'm sure a lot of World War One aviators would agree! Back to rotarys, I found this neat video where a nice young man gives us a tutorial on flying a rotary-engined Sopwith Pup. Very interesting and enjoyable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRT3w4CxZk Overmod mentioned "penguins." For those who don't know, those were clipped-wing aircraft with rotary engines used for pilot familiarization with the same. They weren't capable of flying, strictly basic training "run-up-and-taxi" machines. They were used by the French, but I'm not sure if any other air service used them or something like them during the First War, I've only read about the French ones.
Getting it in the air
Historic aircraft have face similar problems of preservation as historic locomotives but somehow some seem to hang in there. For example, in the Jan, 2018 edition of "Air Classics" there are two significant aircraft discovered and protected. C119B 48-0352 was being put out for bids for scrap by the GSA when it was discovered that it was the only known survivor of the eight C119s that dropped Treadway bridge sections to enable 30,000 men to retreat from the Chosin Reservoir. It is going to the Air Mobility Museum at Dover , Delaware.
Even more remarkable is that C47 42-92847 was found in line to be converted to turbine engines and heavily modified at Basler Turbo Conversions. It was named "That's All, Brother" in WWII and was the first aircraft in the D-Day airborne operation. It was the first of over 800 C-47s that dropped airborne troops behind the German lines. It will go to the CAF, restored to the configuration of that day in 1944.
Sadly, many did not fare so well :
http://www.tailsthroughtime.com/2010/06/to-boost-morale-on-home-front-during.html
BOB WITHORNWe are working on the last bomb group reunion for the 380th B/G (H). It's set for the first weekend in November, 2018. The 380th was originally activated on Nov. 3rd, 1942 at Davis-Monthan AAFB, so, we hope to have a final tribute to them at Davis-Monthan AFB on Nov. 3rd, 2018. They flew B-24s in the South-Pacific. If any of you happen to know anyone that is still with us that was involved, go to the 380th.org website to get info. Hope you all don't mind the plug here, just trying to get to any thay are still around both here and in Australia as we're done after this one. Thanks for your patience, Bob
Interesting as hell. It makes sense about no warm-up period being a one-way user of oil. My two-stroke SAAB is the same way, oil is strictly one-way and once the engine starts, there is no warm-up period. You start it and drive.
For everyone interested, come visit us at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome this summer and all your questions will be answer when you see and hear a rotary engine fly. Aside from the gyroscopic forces issue, they catch fire easily (especially when starting), and the castor oil used for lubrication (yes-it is one way and gets thrown out all over the plane and the pilot) often caused a need for a sudden landing. Just to keep this in the railroad ballpark, you can take AMTRAK to Rhinecliff and catch a short cab ride or Metro North to Poughkeepsie and get a Zip Car. www.oldrhinebeck.org
54light15 Back to rotarys, I found this neat video where a nice young man gives us a tutorial on flying a rotary-engined Sopwith Pup. Very interesting and enjoyable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRT3w4CxZk Interesting as hell. It makes sense about no warm-up period being a one-way user of oil. My two-stroke SAAB is the same way, oil is strictly one-way and once the engine starts, there is no warm-up period. You start it and drive.
Mike
Good to hear from you again Mike!
I haven't been to the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in a long, long time, don't live in that part of the country anymore so it may be a while if I ever get back.
But for those of you in the area it's a show not to be missed! Trust me! You'll remember it for the rest of your lives!
One more thing about rotarys, the recorded video sound really doesn't do them justice, you really have to hear one in person to get the total effect. Like no other engine you've ever heard or ever will hear.
Sorry, hit the button twice.
CSSHEGEWISCH,
We only had 3 vets at this years reunion. It's the main reason we're done in November. Have really enjoyed listening to them open up and finally tell a little bit of their story. Had one of the Bombardiers ask me if he had made a mistake not telling his kids about his service, I told him yes, that the 'kids', would have truely enjoyed hearing and learning. Me, I couldn't get enough, I was captivated by his stories. He was the officer in-charge of de-actavating the 380th in early 1946 at Clark Field in the Philippines. He is still flying in the civil air patrol at 92, fully re-certified in 2017.
MikeFF Aside from the gyroscopic forces issue, they catch fire easily (especially when starting), and the castor oil used for lubrication (yes-it is one way and gets thrown out all over the plane and the pilot) often caused a need for a sudden landing.
Aside from the gyroscopic forces issue, they catch fire easily (especially when starting), and the castor oil used for lubrication (yes-it is one way and gets thrown out all over the plane and the pilot) often caused a need for a sudden landing.
I've run across a few references on the effect of castor oil on the pilots... The oil was mixed in with the gasolene for the same reason a 2 cycle gasolene having oil mixed in.
Wow, how did I miss this thread when it was first posted? Warbirds are my second hobby behind railroading that started with the American Heritage Junior Library edition of "Air War Against Hitler's Germany" that was in my elementary school library when I was a kid in the early 1980's. I was the only one that checked it out...over and over again. When I left for the 5th grade, the librarian just gave it to me.Just this past Fall, I got to go to the Udvar-Hazy complex of the Air & Space Museum. What a visit; I stayed all day long. To me, it wasn't that they had great examples of airplanes I'd only read about before, they had the famous ones. It wasn't just a B-29, it was "Enola Gay". It wasn't just an OS2U Kingfisher, it was one off the USS Indiana BB-58 that rescued downed pilots while under heavy artillery fire (the pilot earned the Navy Cross for that). It wasn't just an F-14, it was the one that shot down a MiG in 1989. It wasn't just any SPAD XVI, it was Gen. Billy Mitchell's SPAD from WWI. Crazy the amount of history in that hanger.
Anyways, relating trains to this, did you know that the New Haven's "Comet" trainset was built by an airship company? Yep, Goodyear-Zepplin. It was the first train ever designed in a windtunnel. The NH would have ordered more if it wasn't the depths of the Great Depression and then that whole WWII thing happened (hard to import German engineers for some strange reason...).
I'm a big fan of the Collings Foundation (http://www.collingsfoundation.org/) based here in Massachusetts in Stow, MA. They fly a B-17, a B-24, a B-25, and a TP-51 around the USA every year you can get rides in (even running a "Bomber Camp"). They also have a Vietnam flight out of Texas that flies an F-4 Phanton, an F-100 Super Sabre, and an A-4 Skyhawk. They are going through a massive new expansion of their display space in Stow that should be very interesting when done.
In addition to the flying history tours, they also have a bunch of warbirds flying or on display. One of which is the last flying Pearl Harbor survior, a P-40B Warhawk; another is one of the two last PT-17 Stearmans used by the Tuskegee Airmen. Then throw in a TBM, FM-2, F4U, A-36, ME-262, Spitfire IX, T-33, and an A-1E, and you've got quite a warbird collection (and more coming).Speaking of Collings, I was at their local stop of the WWII tour in my neck-of-the-woods when I saw an old gentleman wearing a Tuskegee Airman hat and jacket standing near the B-25. One of my fellow model railroad club members named Jack Bryant (now deceased) was a former Tuskegee Airman (even brought in his Presidential Gold Medal), so I went over to the individual and said, "Excuse me, sir. Do you know Jack Bryant?" The guy looks at me and says, "Know him? I just had lunch with him yesterday!" He asked how I knew Jack, and I said we're both in the same model railroad club. "Really?," he said. "Hey, I've got a DCC question for you." Next thing I know, he whips out his smartphone and starts showing me pictures of his layout.I spent the next 30 minutes talking model trains at an airshow with a Tuskegee Airman. Pretty good day, right there.
Hey, in the interest of equal time, how's about a little rotary-engine Fokker Triplane action? The narration's "auf Deutsch" but the visuals are darn good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90SGaZaZjCc
Where they're finding rotary engines for these replicas mystifys me. Fifty years ago Cole Palen, the founder of the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, said it wasn't too much of a problem, a lot more engines than airplanes were built during World War One so finding one wasn't too difficult if you knew where to look.
But 100 years later? I don't know how they do it.
I saw a hawk last Saturday.. at Bayview Junction.
Firelock, they are actually building new ones. http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/oberursel-engine/oberursel-ur-ii-rotary-engine-build-history
MikeFF Firelock, they are actually building new ones. http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/oberursel-engine/oberursel-ur-ii-rotary-engine-build-history
Mike, I just read that article you linked. Incredible! Unbelieveable!
That New Zealand crowd continues to amaze. If they decided to build those engines for sale I wonder what they'd cost?
It is gratifying to see the British Commonweath countries are taking the World War One era and anniversary with a lot more seriousness than we are here in the US. Everything else that's happened here since then has pushed the First World War and the men that fought it off the public consiousness a lot faster than it should have been. Sad.
I just watched that Fokker Triplane video again, it's a sheer delight to see one of those airplanes in the hands of a master who knows how to get the most out of it, and I was struck by a thought or two.
The military-historian-former-Marine in me knows the First World War was a blood-soaked horror that didn't need to happen. I know airplanes like the Fokkers and the Sopwiths and others were, despite their toy-like appearance, weapons of war meant to kill. But still, there's just something magic about them that can't be denied. And the magic persists to this day.
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