Firelock76 Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw. You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion. What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time!
Ever hear a rotary-engine powered world War One fighter? It's been years, but I rmember seeing several at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, NY. A Fokker Triplane, a Sopwith Camel and Pup, and an AVRO 504K. Sounds like nothing you've ever heard before, like a beserk cross between a power mower and a chainsaw.
You know, when I was a boy at the time of the 50th Anniversary years of World War One, the men that flew them were my heroes. Nothing I've seen or read since that time has caused me to change my opinion.
What's this got to do with trains? Welllll, the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome DID have a Baldwin Trench Locomotive on static display at the time!
Hi, Firelock. As a member of the Old Rhinebeck BoT, thanks for the mention. I find many railfans are also fans of antique airplanes. Sadly the locomotive you remember (it was a German quarry engine) has departed. But, we have caboose that we use for storing our uniforms and costumes. You can take a ride in a 1929 biplane out over the Hudson River and watch Amtrak on the former Water Level Route. As to the engines, our Fokker D-VIII is back with a 160 Gnome Rotary-noisiest old airplane engine you'll ever hear-it revolves with the propeller and has no exhaust system. Oh, you can get to us by taking Amtrak to Rhinecliff and getting a cab. Airshows Sat and Sun through October 12/13.
Mike
Hello MikeFF! I'm just thrilled to hear from a member of the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome staff. The last member I heard from was ol' Cole Palen himself. After seeing one of the airshows around 1968 or so (I was 15 at the time) I sent Mr. Palen a fan letter telling him how much I enjoyed the show and how much I appreciated what he was doing. The Man sent me a postcard in reply which I still have and treasure to this day. What a guy he was, I would have been thrilled to meet him.
Not surprised I was wrong on the steam engine. The last time I was at the Aerodrome was 1976 and I wasn't a railfan at the time, but I sure knew a steam engine when I saw one!
Is the Renault FT-17 tank still operational? Man, I'd love to have one of those things!
I live in Virginia now, far away from where I grew up in North Jersey. Maybe one day I'll be back to the Aerodrome, just don't know when.
Turns out the missus, Lady Firestorm and her sisters visited the Aerodrome with her father just about the same time. She wants to know, do you still have that authentic World War One era "three-seater", uh, "facility" on the premises? She loved the place as well, by the way.
PS: I've never been in a 1929 New Standard D-25, but I HAVE been in a Stearman PT-17 several times. I remember reading a World War One pilot once said that being up in the air in a open-cockpit airplane made him feel like a little god. After those Stearman rides I knew what he meant.
PPS: A 160 horsepower rotary on a Fokker D-VIII? The thing must go like a rocket! I believe the usual rotary for those airplanes in 1918 was the 110 HP Oberursal.
Does anyone have any info on the B-17, that was flying off the Oregon Coast, Labor Day weekend?
We were fishing along the south jetty of Nehalem Bay, when I heard an aircraft approaching, that sounded diferent than what I am used to hearing, Lots of guys looking up, and ALL were smiling, when we realized the unexpeted Treat, hat flew over.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Firelock76 A 160 horsepower rotary on a Fokker D-VIII? The thing must go like a rocket! I believe the usual rotary for those airplanes in 1918 was the 110 HP Oberursel.
That's a French engine, probably a nine-cylinder 9-N. (They did make a double-row engine of 160 hp, but that would be far too exotic and fidgety to trust a historic airframe to!)
Interestingly enough, the original engine-company name and the basic single-valve principle came, from all places, from the Oberursel engine people! (They returned the favor by using some of the French monosoupape design principles in the U.III you mentioned...)
You will be using one of those three holes sooner, rather than later, when you fly a rotary! And that's not just because of the large gyroscopic torque and hot performance!
challenger3980 Does anyone have any info on the B-17, that was flying off the Oregon Coast, Labor Day weekend? We were fishing along the south jetty of Nehalem Bay, when I heard an aircraft approaching, that sounded diferent than what I am used to hearing, Lots of guys looking up, and ALL were smiling, when we realized the unexpeted Treat, hat flew over. Doug
Here is a link you and other might enjoy: http://www.johnweeks.com/b17active/index.html
It is a list of WWII ( and other warbirds) "B-17 — The Flying Fortress Survivors - Airworthy Flying Forts"
Hard to tell from the included list which aircraft you might have see airborn(?)
I had a similar experience about a year and a half ago. We were about 4 miles south of the McConnell AFB and after hearing a couple of 4 engine jet a/c pass over ( tankers?) there came the destinctive sound of multiple recip engines ( a sound that is very hard to forget). Turned out there was a B-17-G that was flying out of the Jabara Airport for it airshow and was giving out rides to 'paying' passengers. ( You'll remember Jabara AP ?- it was the civilian airport that hosted the big Boeing Dreamlifter that landed there by mistake?
? Link @ http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2013/11/21/boeing-dreamlifter-kansas-airport/3661511/
They just announced within the last week $300 K damages to runway- was not built to handle the 600,000 # landing weight of that Dreamlifter.
EDIT to Add-Saturday 09/19/2015: Today at the Former Boeing Plant a volunteer group[called Doc's Friends] did start, and successfully run the engines on " Doc" a B-29 Superfortress; this plane was one of over 1600 built at Boeing in Wichita for WWII Service. The volunteer group hope that 'Doc' may fly in the next few months. They have been working on 'Doc' for about 15 years, it will be the third restored B-29 to fly when it gets airborne.
See story linked @ http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/B-29-Docs-engine-test-a-success-328233331.html
Norm48327 And this thread is railroad related?
And this thread is railroad related?
Next time you step aboard a Boeing 737 , remember its 'first flight' was from Wichita, Ks. to Washington State on the BNSF, and has been that way since the late '60's. 747's Cockpits ride those same trains out to Washington State to be mated with their fuselages, as well.
Hi wizlish! If it's a Gnome rotary, it's French alright. I'm surprised they were able to find one. Back in the '60s they were still relatively common as more engines were built than aiplanes to use them during the WW1 years, but nearly 100 years later I'm surprised there's still any to be had. Not really a "faux pas" to have a French engine on a German plane, the Germans used quite a few captured Le Rhone rotarys on their own aircraft.
Oh yeah, that castor oil they used as an engine lubricant did amazing things to the pilots innards. A favorite post-flight drink was brandy with milk to settle their stomachs. The rotary engines were an evolutionary dead-end for more reasons than one!
As an aside, due to the British blockade the Germans had a hard time getting castor oil, so they came up with a synthetic called "Rizinus Oil." I'm not sure what it was made of. It performed well during warm weather months but was marginal during the winter. Another story.
Ever seen a rotary engine up close? The Virginia Aviation Museum has one, a Le Rhone, and you can get "up close and personal" with it. It's a masterpiece of the machinists art. Not to much of a stretch to call it a piece of art in its own right.
Firelock76As an aside, due to the British blockade the Germans had a hard time getting castor oil, so they came up with a synthetic called "Rizinus Oil." I'm not sure what it was made of. It performed well during warm weather months but was marginal during the winter. Another story.
This would be highly interesting, as I thought Rizinusöl was (as it is today) just the German word for castor oil. Are you thinking of Voltol, which was 50% rapeseed oil (the basis of much current biodiesel feedstock) and 50% mineral oil?
This was a Belgian process (the factory was in Ghent) involving a vacuum and high-frequency electricity at about 5kV, 8 to 10kW. The patent is German 234543, filed in 1909 and granted 1911 (you can download the PDF from DEPATISnet, and you might have Juniatha summarize the fine points if you can't read it.)
It could very well be Voltol. I heard about Rizinus for the first time in a biography of Baron von Richthofen by Peter Kilduff called "Richthofen-Beyond The Legend Of The Red Baron" published in 1993. Rizinus gets a brief mention but Kilduff didn't go into many details. I hadn't thought about it in years until this discussion came up.
At any rate the stuff had it's shortcomings. It's one of the reasons the Fokker company designed the D-7 around the Mercedes D-3 engine instead of the Oberursal rotary engine, Fokker realizing the rotarys were a dead-end. The reason Fokker used so many rotarys in his designs, and I should say the actual designer of many Fokker aircraft was really a gent named Rheinhold Platz, was the Albatros company, a Fokker rival, had a "lock" on Mercedes engines, for various reasons. Fokker finally got his hands on a D-3 engine, and the rest was history. Even his rival Albatros was ordered to build D-7's, they were that good.
[quote user="Firelock76"]
e [/quote]
"...Ever hear a rotary-engine... (?)"
To finish Firelock 76's quote.. for a Saturday morning in Wichita "...
[Rotary, not Radial, my error ] engines, FOUR [Wright Duplex Cyclones] of them! "
There is nothing else as recognizable, IMHO.
Particularly, living under the flight path for McConnell AFB. Got to watch as the B-29 'DOC' took another flight this morning!
Video of the first flight in July of this year @www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/yes-b-29-doc-first-flight-watch.html
I think that today's flight would be the 3rd or 4th one, after the rebuilding of "Doc".
Here is video of the 11/05/2016 Flight @ http://www.b-29doc.com/2016/11/05/video-doc-performs-high-speed-flight-and-arrives-at-wichitas-eisenhower-national-airport/
EDIT to add content: Received the Ks Historical Society Magazine "Kansas History" this AM. First article was 'KANSAS BOMBER - An enviromental history of the B-29 and the Sunflower State" by Chris Rein. Page 3 has several paragraphs on [paraphrased] how by 1940 Wichita was the center of an eight spoke rail network. As the War effort expanded the War Dept required rail connections to facilitate movement of troops and war equipment and parts. Boeing in Wichita received sheet aluminum from ALCOA at Bauxite,Ar. In one 1 month period Boeing shipped 600 carloads of spare parts while requiring 20 carloads of lumber a month for crates. It is pretty amazing that an airplane built in 1944 in Wichita,is flying in 2016, and on its way to be certified to fly again.
Boeing (now Spirit Aviation) still ships all 737 fuselages, and tail surfaces by rail to Washington State for completion. So the railroads still play a big role in Commercial Aviation today.
Hi Sam! I think you're confusing "rotary" engines with "radial" engines. In the classic rotary engine of the World War One period the cylinders were arrainged around a central axis the whole works spinning with the crankshaft remaining staitionary, it was a solution to the engine cooling problem. A radial engine has the same cylindrical arraingement but the whole thing is stationary, airflow over the exposed cylinders providing the cooling. The French had that one figured out by the end of the First World War, the Salmson two-seaters were equipped with some of the first radials, the rotarys proving to be an evolutionary dead-end.
But you're right, there's NO sound like a big radial recip engine. A B-17 flew over the house several years back and that deep-throated rumbling roar was unmistakable. Can you imagine what hundreds of them must have sounded like?
Firelock76I think you're confusing "rotary" engines with "radial" engines.
Hey, I learned something! I knew both types existed, but now know what to call them...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
We still have the the rotary engines. The 160 Gnome in the Fokker Dr VIII is especially exciting. The quarry locomotive has sadly departed, but we have a caboose that we use as a dressing room-so I guess this is railroad related. Airshow season starts in June. And, you can come by Amtrak-NYC to Rhinecliff and a short taxi ride to the Aerodrome.
Firelock76But you're right, there's NO sound like a big radial recip engine. A B-17 flew over the house several years back and that deep-throated rumbling roar was unmistakable. Can you imagine what hundreds of them must have sounded like?
With airshows nearby, I've been lucky to have B-17, B-25, B-24 and a B-29 flyover my house at low altitude. Also a modern Zeppelin. Have heard an old JU-52 flyover in Munich. Older friends/relatives do recall US and RAF bombers in WWII. And one lived through the Hamburg firestorm bombing in 1943. So although we love seeing and hearing them, let's not forget their purpose.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
"...Hi Sam! I think you're confusing "rotary" engines with "radial" engines. In the classic rotary engine of the World War One period the cylinders were arrainged around a central axis the whole works spinning with the crankshaft remaining staitionary.."
Wayne: You are SO Right! Have followed the story of "Doc' closely for some time. Just the fact that they rescued this B-29 from a 'Boneyard' and have gotten it redone and flyable is a tale in itself. It is really something to see in the air !
Modern Zeppelins? I was unaware that there were any Zeppelins (rigid-framed airships) in existence now.
Johnny
My husbands grandfather was a ball turret gunner on a B-24 in WW2. He had his diary until he donated to the USAF museum in Ohio. Why because he always said those in the future need to be reminded of the fear that the men that climbed into the bombers faced everyday trying to come home for their familes and countries on both sides of the war. His grandfather made his tour of 30 missions in the ETO and came home. I can imagine the fear of his grandpa in what I would call a fish bowl under the plane with nothing under him but sky no parachute and only protected by glass and the little plate he sat on. Those men where the bravest of the brave that flew those planes.
Johnny, I think what Schlimm may have seen was one of the new Zeppelin NT models. It's not a traditional rigid airship like the Graf Zeppelin or the Hindenburg, but what's called a semi-rigid, that is there's a rigid frame on the bottom of the envelope, kind of like the keel of a ship, and then a blimp-type envelope on top of it.
The last I've heard Goodyear has purchased some to replace some of their aging blimp fleet.
Wayne
The only glory in war is the glory of duty seen and duty done.
Know Napoleon's definition of a hero? "A man who sees his duty and does it, even though he's terrified."
Deggesty Modern Zeppelins? I was unaware that there were any Zeppelins (rigid-framed airships) in existence now.
Sort of. Zeppelin Luftschifftechnikik GmbH builds the semi-rigid Zeppelin NTs (much shorter than the old Graf Zeppelin or Hindenburg, only 246'). The are also building semi-rigids for Goodyear, replacing blimps.
Firelock76 Johnny, I think what Schlimm may have seen was one of the new Zeppelin NT models. It's not a traditional rigid airship like the Graf Zeppelin or the Hindenburg, but what's called a semi-rigid, that is there's a rigid frame on the bottom of the envelope, kind of like the keel of a ship, and then a blimp-type envelope on top of it. The last I've heard Goodyear has purchased some to replace some of their aging blimp fleet. Wayne
Not exactly.
[from Wiki] " It has an internal triangular truss made of graphite-reinforced plastic and three longitudinal girders made of welded aluminium which connect the triangular elements along the length of the frame. Additionally, the structure is tightened with aramid cords to provide for extra rigidity. All major components, such as the engines, control cabin and the steering fins, are all mounted upon the structure; this allows maneuverability to be maintained even in the event of envelope pressure being lost. The whole structure weighs only about 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb).
The envelope contains the lighter-than-air helium which gives the airship its buoyancy. Inside historical Zeppelins, the gas cells were separate entities from the hull; however, on the Zeppelin NT, the envelope serves both as the aircraft's hull and as the gas cell. It is made of a three-layered laminate: one gas-tight layer of Tedlar (PVF), one polyester fabric layer to provide stability and one polyurethane layer suitable for thermic welding that acts to connect the separate laminate panels. To preserve its outer form, a slight overpressure of about 5 millibars (0.073 psi) is maintained within the hull."
Thanks. Now I know that rigid-framed airships are half-way back.
Keep in mind the company was founded by Graf Ferdinand von Zeppelin in 1891. Hence Zeppelin became synonomous with dirigible airships.
You're correct Schlimm, I saw the Wiki article myself but was trying to keep it simple.
An example of a semi-rigid from the Golden Age of Aviation is the Italian-built Norge, used by Roald Amundsen to overfly the North Pole in 1926. Incidentally, Amundsen's reaching of the North Pole is apparantly now the only undisputed one, there's some doubt now about Peary's and Byrd's claims. Not that it really matters in the general scheme of things.
Just some miscellaneous stuff, in no particular order.
At a small airshow at a tiny airport when I was about 10, a P-51 was in attendance. Couldn't see it when the pilot fired up the engine, but even an ignorant kid knew that sound came from something special and very powerful. In the 50 or so years since I've NEVER heard anything that sounds even close. Think of 2 or 3 unmuffled Harley Davidson's up close.
Also while growing up, fire ants were moving into southeast GA and the state was trying to do something about it. They purchased at least one B-17 and a Navy recon plane (CV2?), a big twin-engine beast, and dropped fire ant bait over the area. One afternoon the CV2 (or whatever it was) made repeated trips over the farm dropping strips of ant bait. Sometime later the B-17 flew by going somewhere, we assumed to drop ant bait somewhere nearby. My father grabbed us boys up, we got in the car and chased it. Never did get a really good look at it, but we gave it the old college try.
As an adult, was able to tour a DC-4 which had been coverted to serve as an air tanker for fighting forest fires. USDA-Forest Service had an air tanker base set up in Ft. Smith, AR to mix water with the compressed dry fire retardant, and the plane was sitting there on standby during a period of high fire danger. Wasn't much to see, but I did get to hear (but not see) it take off once. Quite the internal-combustion symphony.
When I was about 16 we lived in the flight path of the airport near Rapid City, S.D. Being an avid avaiation fan, (it kinda goes with being a train fan perhaps?) I got excited when a B-24 came over the house and landed. On the prairie you can hear those things coming for miles. I called the airport to see if anyone could talk to me about the B-24. They gave me the airport manager. He had been a crewman on a medium bomber in WWII and we had a good long talk about airplanes. He also clued me in on when a B-17 would be in the area. Both were tankers fighting forest fires. A couple years later I worked a summer at that airport during college. That guy was my boss.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
About 30 years ago there was an airshow at the Poughkeepsie airport. There was a PBY, a bunch of AT-6s and several P-51s. The real thrill was the Fokker D-7 from the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome. It was painted white and it took off from the grass next to the runway because of it's tailskid. It was airborne in about 200 feet! Then the pilot pulled it straight up and it hung motionless on it's propellor. My father was a WW1 aircraft buff and he told me they could do that and I saw it with my own eyes. That was something!
By the way, I did meet Cole Palen one time to see if he wanted to sell the 3-wheel Matchless-powered Morgan that was in one of the hangers and he wasn't interested. There were a few interesting old cars there including a Packard moving van with an ornately painted body from about 1915. Most of the aircraft from the film "Those Magnificant Men in their Flying Machines" were there too.
54Light, it's amazing how fast those WW1 types get off the ground, the one's I mentioned earlier were all airborne in less than a football field's length, they were STOL before the term was even invented!
Interesting you saw the D-7 painted all white. The only German ace I'm aware of who flew an all-white D-7 was Hermann Goering, he called it "The White Stag."
I can't imagine why they'd try to replicate Goering's D-7 unless they were reflecting the heroic, hard charging fighter pilot he was long before he turned into the fat, rapacious Nazi SOB he became.
Firelock, I did not know that about fat boy. It was an amazing thing to see, that D7. Regarding zeppelins, I was in the Deutsches Museum in Munich (you have to go if you've never been) in 1978 and they had a chunk of duralumin, it might have been a frame piece of the Graf Zeppelin. About 6 feet long, a truss type girder with four long lengths and triangular bits holding the four together like an old railroad bridge. I picked it up and I think it might have weighed about 1/2 a pound. Couldn't believe how light that was.
I was in eigth grade science class, learning about airplanes. The teacher mentioned all the types of piston engines and then I said, "What about rotary engines?" He did not accept that there was an engine that spun with the propellor. My old man told me all about them and the first time I was at Rhinebeck, I gently turned the prop of the Sopwith and, yep, the engine turned just like dad said. My teacher was a jerk.
No, your teacher was not necessarily a jerk; his education had been neglected--to the point that he had trouble accepting a boy's statement.
I had not heard anything at all about the rotary engines until they were mentioned on this thread.
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