What was the point? Good question. Maybe part of the effort to make double-damn sure a resurgent Germany couldn't use them again? Sometimes people do over-react (for lack of a better term) after a hard bloody war, and especially after finding out what the Third Reich was capable of. It also made sense to completely disband the German military after the war, but guess what? By the mid-Fifties it was necessary to bring it back, with the Cold War and all. The Soviets did the same thing in East Germany.
Kind of like the MacArthur Constitution that Japan operates under now. There's a clause in there preventing Japan from fighting any kind of offensive war, of any kind, even if they're the "good guys."
Probably, certainly, an obsolete clause now, but in the post-war era it seemed like a good idea.
charlie hebdo Overmod See the plan to attack the Tirpitz (before the British sank her) when B-17F 42-30595 had the fuselage top removed to facilitate loading with hydrostatic bombs. This was taken advantage of during the development of the Aphrodite/Anvil/Castor remote-control project, in part a response to the German V-weapon sites. There were pictures in Olsen's Aphrodite: Desperate Mission which was one of my favorite books in the early '70s -- I believe there are more books on this now. Think war-weary bombers used to carry 10 tons of Torpex into hardened facilities like the Heligoland sub pens by remote control -- call it a 20,000lb guided missile. This is the project on which cold-soldered joints and sloppy electrical engineering killed Joe Kennedy, Jr. I've been to modern day Helgoland. Some craters are still there from bombing raids late in the war.. It took one of the largest explosions ever (April1947 the Royal Navy detonated 6,700 tonnes of explosives) to destroy some of the concrete bunkers, including the many hidden 17" gun emplacements which date to WWI, and can still be seen along the cliffs. It's a beautiful place and was where Heisenberg (on holiday to escape hayfever) discovered his equation underlying quantum mechanics in 1925.
Overmod See the plan to attack the Tirpitz (before the British sank her) when B-17F 42-30595 had the fuselage top removed to facilitate loading with hydrostatic bombs. This was taken advantage of during the development of the Aphrodite/Anvil/Castor remote-control project, in part a response to the German V-weapon sites. There were pictures in Olsen's Aphrodite: Desperate Mission which was one of my favorite books in the early '70s -- I believe there are more books on this now. Think war-weary bombers used to carry 10 tons of Torpex into hardened facilities like the Heligoland sub pens by remote control -- call it a 20,000lb guided missile. This is the project on which cold-soldered joints and sloppy electrical engineering killed Joe Kennedy, Jr.
See the plan to attack the Tirpitz (before the British sank her) when B-17F 42-30595 had the fuselage top removed to facilitate loading with hydrostatic bombs.
This was taken advantage of during the development of the Aphrodite/Anvil/Castor remote-control project, in part a response to the German V-weapon sites. There were pictures in Olsen's Aphrodite: Desperate Mission which was one of my favorite books in the early '70s -- I believe there are more books on this now. Think war-weary bombers used to carry 10 tons of Torpex into hardened facilities like the Heligoland sub pens by remote control -- call it a 20,000lb guided missile.
This is the project on which cold-soldered joints and sloppy electrical engineering killed Joe Kennedy, Jr.
I've been to modern day Helgoland. Some craters are still there from bombing raids late in the war.. It took one of the largest explosions ever (April1947 the Royal Navy detonated 6,700 tonnes of explosives) to destroy some of the concrete bunkers, including the many hidden 17" gun emplacements which date to WWI, and can still be seen along the cliffs. It's a beautiful place and was where Heisenberg (on holiday to escape hayfever) discovered his equation underlying quantum mechanics in 1925.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Thanks Overmod, I'll have to look into that info you sent.
Charli-H, I'm not surprised it took so much explosive to demolish those German gun emplacements. The World War Two era flak towers were so ruggedly built no-one's ever tried to demolish them, it was easier just to let them stand. One in Berlin had an artificial hill built around it and planted with trees!
"Death Of The Ball Turret Gunner."
Probably one of the grimmest poems ever written. Says it all, doesn't it?
The ball turrets weren't missed at all when they were rendered obsolete by the B-29's remote control system.
Overmod, you'll have to tell us a bit more about Roy Forrest's "roadster." I'm unfamiliar with his story and couldn't find anything on line. Sounds interesting.
Flintlock76The rest of the plane's not too bad, but it's not as roomy in there as people think it is.
I tried to find a picture of Roy Forrest's 'roadster' but couldn't. That at least had plenty of headroom.
As I recall, Forrest liked to buzz B-24 drivers returning from missions. Apparently he was made to stop when tired pilots reported they were seeing open B-17s flown by women in babushkas...
Goes without saying the ball turret gunners were all "shortys." I went to a B-17 on display at Richmond Airport a few years back. I'm a six-footer, and I didn't even try to get in the thing, the ball turret that is. The rest of the plane's not too bad, but it's not as roomy in there as people think it is.
Come to think of it, if what I read is true no WW2 Red Army tankers were over 5'8", big guys couldn't move around in a T-34 all that well. I've been in one and let me tell you, it is tight in there!
The last tank I was in was an American M-48. Compared to a T-34 it's like a stretch limo!
tree68Had a chance to take a self-guided tour of a B-17 at an air show ... [T]he tail gunner's position and the ball turret were out of the question...
A little Procrustean surgery and we'll have you in there in a trice. (You may no longer be equipped to shoot well ... but we'll address that problem when we come to it...)
BTW, note that turret gunning was the source of one of the first real simulators (as opposed to Link trainers with the hood) -- see this story for details.
Much as I love the theory and practice of the Sperry ball turret, Randall Jarrell has the word:
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
Overmod MikeFF Shameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board). Just down the road from Orlot -- many happy hours gainfully wasted there. And I'll never finish Henry Forster's Spad XIII 'replica' now, but I'd sure have had fun with it. Shameless promotion for Hudson River Heritage, too!
MikeFF Shameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board).
Just down the road from Orlot -- many happy hours gainfully wasted there. And I'll never finish Henry Forster's Spad XIII 'replica' now, but I'd sure have had fun with it. Shameless promotion for Hudson River Heritage, too!
I think you or someone else posted a photo of a turboprop modern plane suitable for ground support fire. Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano A-29
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/07/26/air-force-wants-more-money-light-attack-aircraft-effort.html
Nothing's unwelcome here when it concerns things that move, whether they roll, fly, or float!
Anyone else besides me overdosing on Oshkosh?
MikeFFShameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board).
Just down the road from Orlot -- many happy hours gainfully wasted there. And I'll never finish Henry Forster's Spad XIII 'replica' now, but I'd sure have had fun with it. Shameless promotion time for Hudson River Heritage, too!
.
Very much on topic!!!
Got to love an off topic that lasts this long. Shameless promotion time for Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York's Hudson Valley (I'm on the Board). We have Sopwith Pup and Dolphin copies coming on line shortly. Both will have the original engines. To keep me out of trouble with the admin-railroad related-you can get to us by both Amtrak and Metro North.
Mike
Flintlock76 I just took another look at the Oshkosh live cam. ANOTHER Mig-17, B-25's, an A-26, more AT-6's, T-34's, more Corsairs, Stearman PT-17's, and a P-82 "Twin Mustang." This is unbelieveable! You guys have GOT to see this! TWO Ford Tri-Motors!
I just took another look at the Oshkosh live cam.
ANOTHER Mig-17, B-25's, an A-26, more AT-6's, T-34's, more Corsairs, Stearman PT-17's, and a P-82 "Twin Mustang." This is unbelieveable!
You guys have GOT to see this!
TWO Ford Tri-Motors!
When you're the premier fly-in for this part of the world - everyone wants to be there.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
That P-82 is particularly special, since it's a prototype XP-82 and the only P/F-82 that's airworthy in the world. Has only been flying for a few months after being rescued from the Walter Soplata farm and undergoing a long restoration, and I believe is the first time a Twin Mustang has been flyable since the Confederate Air Force had a hard landing on their former example three decades ago.
charlie hebdo Mosquito. Wow.
Mosquito. Wow.
I know man, I couldn't believe what I saw either! I know some have been restored but I didn't think one was here in the US!
Lord, they've got some good stuff there! There's a B-17 and some C-47's as well!
Yeah Charlie, Hans-Ulrich Rudel was definately what I'd call a "tarnished eagle." At least, even though a Nazi party member, he fought a hard war, was a good soldier, and never committed any atrocities. Lost a leg in combat and still kept climbing into a cockpit. Giving credit where credit is due he was certainly a brave man, although a tainted one.
Did you know the US Air Force called him in as a consultant during the development of the A-10? Interesting, huh? I guess if you're looking to bust tanks you might as well talk to the guy who's busted more than anyone else has, or ever will.
And Mike, during the week of the EAA Airventure Oshkosh Airport is the busiest airport in the world!
I looked at the EAA live camera link. Oh my dear God. A DeHavilland "Mosquito," Douglas Skyraiders, a MiG-17, an F4U "Corsair," a gaggle of T-28's, I remember those from Quantico in the 70's. I'm turning green with envy! And all the others, what beautiful machines!
If one of the cameras pans over a World War One assortment that'll be it, Lady Firestorm will come home and find me passed out on the floor!
PS: Just took another look and saw a Bleriot! That's it, I'm done!
For now.
Flintlock76And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services.
I spent many a day out at the range with the previous generation of fighter-bombers testing the new fangled laser guided weapons. The 'gold standard' for weapons carriage seemed to be about 16K lbs max for a 'dumb bomb' load - the A-10, A-7 (in my day, ANG) and F-16 all could. Both pop-up and shallow angle dive releases were typically used.
The latest guided weapons have more guidance options and hopefully are more effective in inclement weather.
BTW major warbird sightings are to be had at the EAA Airventure now underway. Several live cameras are to be seen on YT; the level of air traffic handled by the controllers is astonishing.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Flintlock76 Those Stuka sirens were automatically engaged when the dive brakes were deployed. The problem was, sometimes the clutch malfunctioned after the dive and the Stuka pilot would have to put up with the damn thing all the way home. As Charlie said, later models didn't have the sirens. In fact, the sirens wound up being removed on the planes already out there. Not worth the trouble. And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services. Same with torpedo bombing, that ended with WW2 as well. It hasn't been missed.
Those Stuka sirens were automatically engaged when the dive brakes were deployed. The problem was, sometimes the clutch malfunctioned after the dive and the Stuka pilot would have to put up with the damn thing all the way home.
As Charlie said, later models didn't have the sirens. In fact, the sirens wound up being removed on the planes already out there. Not worth the trouble.
And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services. Same with torpedo bombing, that ended with WW2 as well. It hasn't been missed.
Stukas got a 2nd life on the Eastern Front as low level, anti-tank, anti-vehicle weapons, no longer dive bombing. Most were armed with 20-40mm (or even larger) anti-tank cannons firing AP shells. Some carried rockets, some anti-personnel bombs In this role they were lethal. Hans Ulrich Rudel was the most proficient, destroying 519 tanks, one battleship and one cruiser and numerous soft vehicles. He remained an unreconstructed Nazi the rest of his life until death in 1982.
Flintlock76 And the dive-bombing concept was a casualty of WW2 itself at any rate. No-one's done it since, at least not to my knowledge, certainly not any of the American services. Same with torpedo bombing, that ended with WW2 as well. It hasn't been missed.
The advantage of dive bombing was that the bomb could be very accurately placed (including moving targets) with good pilots capable of hitting within 50' of the aiming point. "Smart bombs" do an even better job and don't require the plane to be an easy target.
The last combat use for an aerial torpedo was in the Korean war, a reprise of the Dam Busters raid on a smaller scale. OTOH, and aerial homing torpedo would be a good ASW weapon.
About as close an anyone probably comes is the "pop-up' technique used by A-10's. They fly nap-of-the-earth until just before reaching their target, then pop up and dive in to drop their bomb. At least, that's how they did it when I was the "Hawg Smoke" competition some years back. They certainly don't come in from 15,000 feet...
I suspect missiles (like the Exocet) have probably replaced WWII-style torpedo attacks, not to mention dive bombing.
When I was a kid watching the old war movies with the screaming dive bombers I assummed the sound was the engines in the dive.
It was not until I was older and heard of the sirens that I understood what the sound really was.
So I then researched why they were installed. The same reason why bombs had the whistle on them... originally it was considered proper "gentlemanly" warfare to warn people that they were under attack (i.e.: about to die).
It was later decided that it was of value as a terror weapon... scare the people to death before you blew them away.
When it was found that a complete surprise attack was more effective as a terror weapon, (people are more afraid of the unknown) they were no longer installed.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
tree68 charlie hebdo They were propeller-driven. But the drag cost about 15 mph on an already slow plane. I saw that when I looked them up to see just how they did work. I knew they used some sort of siren, but the how was something I wasn't aware of. Interesting that they took that much speed off...
charlie hebdo They were propeller-driven. But the drag cost about 15 mph on an already slow plane.
They were propeller-driven. But the drag cost about 15 mph on an already slow plane.
I saw that when I looked them up to see just how they did work. I knew they used some sort of siren, but the how was something I wasn't aware of.
Interesting that they took that much speed off...
That's why the sirens were eliminated on later models of the Ju 87, such as the G and some D series.
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