schlimmSome people on here seem to be trying to find a cause, any cause, other than human error. Even if the windshield were struck by a rock, how would that explain or excuse the engineer's acceleration of the train from 70 to 106 before he then decided to apply the emergency brakes?
Agreed. I have to believe that rocks on the windshield are fairly common - maybe not every day, but often enough. Don't some of those NEC locomotives have grates over the windshields?
Most chemicals that might have been thrown on the locomotive would leave a residue. I'm sure that's been considered and dealt with.
I'm satisfied to wait for something from NTSB.
In the meantime, we have an engineer who, for reasons unknown (and he's not offering any), was running well over the speed limit, even without the 50 MPH curve. Pending the ruling out of any medical problems, it's pretty much on him.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
To clarify: the theory is that the engineer opened the throttle to accelerate the train, and a projectile compromised the windshield. The engineer hit the floor with the throttle still open, allowing the train to reach 106 MPH before he returned to his seat and applied the emergency brakes.
I am skeptical of this theory, and agree that it is best to wait for the NTSB report.
NorthWest To clarify: the theory is that the engineer opened the throttle to accelerate the train, and a projectile compromised the windshield. The engineer hit the floor with the throttle still open, allowing the train to reach 106 MPH before he returned to his seat and applied the emergency brakes. I am skeptical of this theory, and agree that it is best to wait for the NTSB report.
And miss all the fun of conjecturing based on hearsay?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
From the AP wire via MSN.COM:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-mystery-in-train-crash-was-it-hit-by-a-flying-object/ar-BBjO7VM
"The Amtrak train that derailed along the nation's busiest tracks may have been struck by an object in the moments before it crashed, investigators said Friday, raising new questions about the deadly accident."
There is more to come in the days ahead, leading up to the NTSB report. What I have found very troubling is the quick, snap judgement of the media and some politicians. Example, CNN day 1 was all over the poor shape of the rails since the rail industry was declining and not one made "heavy rail" any more. Next day it is a party in congress fault for cutting Amtrak budgets over the last 40 years. The hoot was the call for privatization of rail travel. Additional to calling out the other "Amtrak" accident at this location back in 1943 in which 79 lives were lost (due to a hotbox.) The point being is this quick to blame attitude that has surfaced in the last two years.
My own speculation to my spouse (a CNN junkie) this could have been an unknown software defect (have 30+ years in the IT field) or a mechanical defect. As facts come in, the better the information fits together.
For all reading here, remember the 8 families that will forever wait on their love ones to arrive. As Tree68 stated, lets wait for the NTSB to do their job before passing any judgement.
@9:05pm @N. Philadelphia - Amtrak Acela southbound #2173 struck by a large projectile that struck and shattered a window on a passenger car.
@9:10pm @N. Philadelphia - Septa nortbound #769 struck by a projectile that shattered the engineers window and left the engineer covered in glass.
@9:28pm Frankfort Juntion - Amtrak northbound Reginal #188 derails.
A crew member on #188 has reported to the NTSB radio traffic between the engineers of Amtrak #188 and Septa #769 just before the derailment that both trains were hit by projectiles in the N Philadelphia area. The NTSB has called in the FBI to investigate all three incidents.
CC
(playing devils advocate here)
23 17 46 11
seppburgh2 For all reading here, remember the 8 families that will forever wait on their love ones to arrive. As Tree68 stated, lets wait for the NTSB to do their job before passing any judgement.
The media culture today is 'Guilty until the media is proven wrong'.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BTW... We only know that Amtrak #188 had an emergency braking application directly before it derailed. I haven't seen or read anything on how #188 went into emergency. Was it the engineer? Or, was it a penalty brake application for no response to the controls and / or alerter?
Chris30 BTW... We only know that Amtrak #188 had an emergency braking application directly before it derailed. I haven't seen or read anything on how #188 went into emergency. Was it the engineer? Or, was it a penalty brake application for no response to the controls and / or alerter? CC
Penalty brake is full service, not emergency.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BaltACD oltmannd MikeF90 Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic .... There has been mention here and on The Other forum about 'projectiles' possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact 'craters' from small diameter, roundish objects. http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be 'distracting'. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen. In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side. Looks to me like the locomotive grazed the cat pole. Also, look at all the mud on the front. It plowed the balast and ran into the debris field it created. Gunshots? Throwing rocks at trains has a LOONG tradition on the NEC. Why to you think Metroliners and Amfleet have such narrow windows? Anyone else remember when rock shields on the locomotives were the norm? When you 'blow up' the picture to it's maximum resolution there appears to be 3 impacts to the engineer's side of the windshield that don't appear to be related to crash damage. There are also 2 impacts to the firemans side windshield that also appear to be from rocks or something similar. There is no doubt in my mind that the engine was 'rocked' somewhere - the results of the NTSB investigation will show if that was a contributing factor in the derailment.
oltmannd MikeF90 Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic .... There has been mention here and on The Other forum about 'projectiles' possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact 'craters' from small diameter, roundish objects. http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be 'distracting'. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen. In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side. Looks to me like the locomotive grazed the cat pole. Also, look at all the mud on the front. It plowed the balast and ran into the debris field it created. Gunshots? Throwing rocks at trains has a LOONG tradition on the NEC. Why to you think Metroliners and Amfleet have such narrow windows? Anyone else remember when rock shields on the locomotives were the norm?
MikeF90 Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic .... There has been mention here and on The Other forum about 'projectiles' possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact 'craters' from small diameter, roundish objects. http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be 'distracting'. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen. In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side.
Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic ....
There has been mention here and on The Other forum about 'projectiles' possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact 'craters' from small diameter, roundish objects.
http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg
The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be 'distracting'. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen.
In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side.
Looks to me like the locomotive grazed the cat pole. Also, look at all the mud on the front. It plowed the balast and ran into the debris field it created.
Gunshots? Throwing rocks at trains has a LOONG tradition on the NEC. Why to you think Metroliners and Amfleet have such narrow windows? Anyone else remember when rock shields on the locomotives were the norm?
When you 'blow up' the picture to it's maximum resolution there appears to be 3 impacts to the engineer's side of the windshield that don't appear to be related to crash damage. There are also 2 impacts to the firemans side windshield that also appear to be from rocks or something similar. There is no doubt in my mind that the engine was 'rocked' somewhere - the results of the NTSB investigation will show if that was a contributing factor in the derailment.
I think those rock impacts were balast churned up during the derailment. They go with the mud splotches on the windshield.
Not saying the train might not have been "rocked", especially considering the SEPTA train, just that it can be explained by the derailment.
No fireman?
Gentlemen, recently retired and long out of touch with rules changes but aware of the trend toward single operators in the cab (on short lines for a whole train), along such a busy corridor and with passengers not freight behind the locomotive, was there no second man in the left hand seat? On several trips west, SW Chief, Texas Eagle, Sunset Ltd., at crew change stops I always saw two men getting out of the cab, replaced by a fresh two man crew. And I assume there is still a dead man's pedal in each locomotive? If I recall correctly, even the Chicago-Milwaukee runs have two men up front, no?
Mr Sumwalt specifically said that it was an Engineer induced Emergency Brake application.
I thought those impacts on the windshield might be rocks as well BUT THEN, they all have consistent rings around them and are the same size. Meaning the rocks striking the windshield would likely be the same shape and size and traveling at relatively the same speed upon impact. They do look like bullet holes to me. Additionally, shouldn't the windshield be safety glass and able to take a rock impact without damage up to a specific size?
Last but not least, I thought some of the ABB AEM7's had steel grates over the windshield, why are they absent on this locomotive, if is cleared for high speed service?
Anyone heard anything about the condition of the locomotive? While perhaps a bit premature just a few days after the derailment, I'm assuming despite its solid looking shape, that its future is anything but assured with how they build contemporary passenger locomotives to absorb the energy during an incident to protect the crew.
NJTransit had to write off a nearly new locomotive a year ago after a truck collision, despite the only damage evident from the exterior to the average person being some cosmetic nose damage that in past years would quicky be rectified.
CMStPnPI thought those impacts on the windshield might be rocks as well BUT THEN, they all have consistent rings around them and are the same size.
they asked the FBI to investigate the impacts. A conductor said she overheard the engineer reporting the impacts before the derailment.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32757113
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
CMStPnPLast but not least, I thought some of the ABB AEM7's had steel grates over the windshield, why are they absent on this locomotive, if is cleared for high speed service?
I thought the 'ghetto bars' were long gone from Amtrak locomotives (replaced by a combination of better 'armored' glass and frames in the windshields, and better security on bridges and overlooks). They are a very poor solution on high-speed trains: severe turbulence and air resistance, and birds get jammed in the spaces and then start to decompose because no one wants to deal with them...
Apparently part of the problem was that clever folks would tie rocks or bricks to a rope "just the right length", hang it down there, and then presumably move to an innocent-seeming location to watch the ensuing "fun". The right solution to this wasn't cheap grilles over the windshields, it was better security and grates/fences on the bridges. Of course, getting the states and municipalities involved to foot the bill for that was a lot more involved than a few bits of ironmongery...
I'm sure that somewhere there is a Web-accessible spec for how strong the ACS-64 windshield is, and what sort of tests the design had to pass. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when the windshields have to be made like the teller glass at Federal Credit Unions or the ports in a DSRV ... which may be the next step if it turns out a projectile weapon was used in this incident.
A couple hours after the accident, on another railroad forum, someone posted a tweet by a guy with a screen shot he took from the Amtrak Tracker website (which allows people to track the progress of their train). It posted the train's speed limit at 106mph as it entered the curve, but I didn't believe it (nor did anyone else at the time), as I have seen hundreds of trains go through that curve and no train was anywhere close to that speed to even be doing that by accident.
Daily Beast article on possible fatigue of engineer.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/15/amtrak-engineer-was-frazzled-by-prior-route.html
As for why the system did not alert the engineer or induce a penalty braking application west of SHORE (as the engineer was speeding there too, apparently it can take up to 60 seconds before penalty applications are made. At 70mph, it could take 25-35 secs before the alerter in the cab goes off, then 10 seconds of a visual alarm, followed by 10 seconds of an audible alarm, and then after that the alarm relay is reset and penalty braking applications are made.
So, the windshield could have been shot at, causing the engineer to hit the deck. 50-60 secs later, the alerter goes off, rousing Mr. Bostian to the controls where he applies the brakes, but it is too late.
blue streak 1 Daily Beast article on possible fatigue of engineer. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/15/amtrak-engineer-was-frazzled-by-prior-route.html
If the engineer was 'frazzled' by having to rely on wayside signals account cab signal failure - I guess every other engineer in the country that operates without cab signals is equally 'frazzled' all the time.
One thing to remember about PTC - it will fail and trains will still have to be moved, unless one wants (or gets required) to shut down an entire railroad segment and all it's trains account the failure of one.
There are reports on the news today about there having been a radio exchange between the Amtrak, a commuter train and the dispatcher regarding the commuter having been hit by a rock (or shot) in the same area shortly before the wreck. Where is the tape of that conversation? Does the "black box" on the engine record cab audio? Is everything that is said on the channel recorded at the dispatching center?
Dakguy201 There are reports on the news today about there having been a radio exchange between the Amtrak, a commuter train and the dispatcher regarding the commuter having been hit by a rock (or shot) in the same area shortly before the wreck. Where is the tape of that conversation? Does the "black box" on the engine record cab audio? Is everything that is said on the channel recorded at the dispatching center?
The commuter train engineer, even if shot at or rocked, continued to operate his train safely. Mr. Bastien may have had a rock hit his windshield, but it was apparently well after the time he started accelerating to 106, and then in the last seconds, applied emergency brakes, far too late.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Have fun with your trains
schlimm Dakguy201 There are reports on the news today about there having been a radio exchange between the Amtrak, a commuter train and the dispatcher regarding the commuter having been hit by a rock (or shot) in the same area shortly before the wreck. Where is the tape of that conversation? Does the "black box" on the engine record cab audio? Is everything that is said on the channel recorded at the dispatching center? The commuter train engineer, even if shot at or rocked, continued to operate his train safely. Mr. Bastien may have had a rock hit his windshield, but it was apparently well after the time he started accelerating to 106, and then in the last seconds, applied emergency brakes, far too late.
It appears the window strike precipitated the acceleration of train 188, perhaps caused it. They already know that 65 seconds prior to the derailment the train was still obeying the limit @ 70mph. 65 seconds of travel distance puts the train roughly where the other strikes reportedly happened. In addition, the projectile may very well have been bullets rather than rocks. And unlike the SEPTA engineer, Bostian may have been aware that his train could be hit moments before it did. So, someone says you may be shot at, which undoubtedly could raise anxiety, and then moments later bullet holes are on your windshield. How might you react? How long would it take you to recover?
oltmannd daveklepper KP. If I were in the USA right now, I would call my nearest FBI office with the suggestion that the scrape the exterior of the locomotive to see if there is chemical residue from the spray. There should be. The terrorists' plot was this. They expected that the SEPTA train would stop with the cab windshield shattered. Then the spray wouldl prevent the engineer from stoppinig the following train, which would plow into the stopped SEPTA train. But the engineer of the SEPTA train did not stop until the next station where passengers could detrain. He avoided a possibly much greater tragedy. KP, please call the FBI with your idea and experience. ...because everyone knows terrorists don't know about cab signal with train stop.
daveklepper KP. If I were in the USA right now, I would call my nearest FBI office with the suggestion that the scrape the exterior of the locomotive to see if there is chemical residue from the spray. There should be. The terrorists' plot was this. They expected that the SEPTA train would stop with the cab windshield shattered. Then the spray wouldl prevent the engineer from stoppinig the following train, which would plow into the stopped SEPTA train. But the engineer of the SEPTA train did not stop until the next station where passengers could detrain. He avoided a possibly much greater tragedy. KP, please call the FBI with your idea and experience.
KP. If I were in the USA right now, I would call my nearest FBI office with the suggestion that the scrape the exterior of the locomotive to see if there is chemical residue from the spray. There should be.
The terrorists' plot was this. They expected that the SEPTA train would stop with the cab windshield shattered. Then the spray wouldl prevent the engineer from stoppinig the following train, which would plow into the stopped SEPTA train. But the engineer of the SEPTA train did not stop until the next station where passengers could detrain. He avoided a possibly much greater tragedy.
KP, please call the FBI with your idea and experience.
...because everyone knows terrorists don't know about cab signal with train stop.
- Paul North.
About 20 years ago I was driving and the truck in front of me caused a loose piece of asphalt (from the road) to fly up and towards me. It struck my windshield right at eye level. I was completely stunned by the event. This was a 6"-8" pieces and I watched it fly directly at me (I was going 50 - 60mph at the time). I instinctively ducked and was lucky to keep my vehicle under control.
Not saying that occured here, but I saw the projectile flying at me and had time to react / prepare (probably about a second). It shattered, but didnt break the windshield.
Probably the scariest moment driving.
Ed
CHANCE2195There are a series of small indentations to the left (facing) of Amtrak moniker in the blue area. Automatic weapon?
I blew up the picture posted previously, but don't see anything that looks like a track of impacts from automatic fire. Can you find the image that you're using and post it here?
On the other hand: If those windshield bullseyes are from plowed-up ballast, where are the impacts lower down on the nose from that cause? Or on the remaining clear lens over the lower lights? I believe it takes a lot of impact energy to create that tight pattern of cracks in a circle or oval, and while it's possible the small hole I see at the center of each one is a consequence of a hard 'corner' on a rock, I have to wonder whether there is a corresponding penetration in the back portion or wall of the cab for each of these, particularly the one on the fireman's side.
Something that may deserve further attention is the reported series of sharp 'toots', said to be just before the sound of collision. If I understand the timing correctly, the supposed 'strikes' (if they were the cause of the acceleration from 70 to over 100) would have occurred quite a few seconds back, so Mr. Bostian was not blowing the horn as an announcement of the strike or to call attention to the fact that he had just been 'shot at' or rocked. I have to wonder if he was actually blowing the horn after the locomotive derailed, to get the attention of anyone in the path. I believe the event recorder will have captured the horn timing together with the other incident data ... but didn't someone here already mention that the event recorder cut off before the locomotive came to rest? Seems a bit peculiar if the LED headlights continued to draw power so long afterward...
jslader_sr schlimm Dakguy201 There are reports on the news today about there having been a radio exchange between the Amtrak, a commuter train and the dispatcher regarding the commuter having been hit by a rock (or shot) in the same area shortly before the wreck. Where is the tape of that conversation? Does the "black box" on the engine record cab audio? Is everything that is said on the channel recorded at the dispatching center? The commuter train engineer, even if shot at or rocked, continued to operate his train safely. Mr. Bastien may have had a rock hit his windshield, but it was apparently well after the time he started accelerating to 106, and then in the last seconds, applied emergency brakes, far too late. The commuter engineer made an emergency stop at a station a short time after the incident. It appears the window strike precipitated the acceleration of train 188, perhaps caused it. They already know that 65 seconds prior to the derailment the train was still obeying the limit @ 70mph. 65 seconds of travel distance puts the train roughly where the other strikes reportedly happened. In addition, the projectile may very well have been bullets rather than rocks. And unlike the SEPTA engineer, Bostian may have been aware that his train could be hit moments before it did. So, someone says you may be shot at, which undoubtedly could raise anxiety, and then moments later bullet holes are on your windshield. How might you react? How long would it take you to recover?
The commuter engineer made an emergency stop at a station a short time after the incident.
"operate safely" = APPLY BRAKES (emergency, in the case of the commuter engineer). Meanwhile, the Amtrak engineer's reaction was to accelerate? If he ducked, which would be instinctive, why would he accelerate? Unlike the examples of a car driver, he doesn't need to steer. Likely ducking would remove his hand from the control, not engage it to accelerate. Let's see what the NTSB report finds, but these attempts to find gunshot holes as the cause of acceleration seem like a red herring.
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