Not trying to start a conspiracy theory but there are four roads that bridge the tracks between the North Philly SEPTA station and the scene of the wreck. There are areas on those bridges where someone could throw rocks or shoot at the train.
That said, I'm waiting to hear what the FBI has to say about the broken windshields.
Norm
It seems to me that if you plow up ballast at 106 mph, the ballast rocks are going to be moving about 106 mph in the same direction as the train. So I don't see how the train impacts the airborne ballast with enough force to cause much damage.
[eliminated wacky duplicate post]
WSJ dsyd Amtrak is to immedialy install signal indications for any reductions of 20 MPH before restarting service. Maybe reason not starting service until Tuesday ?
This is same order that MNRR got after its wreck. Why was Amtrak not so ordered as well ? FRA incompetence ?
Clearly, Engine 601 was in a scenerio of being the irresitable force striking immovable objects. That it stopped in what appears to be a short distance and stay upright (my supposition) is amazing. I have a number of questions that perhaps someone can address.
1. Throttle. Feeds electical lines that can be connected to other locomotives to either control them or vise versa. My understanding id that there is a selector switch that put a locomotive in "Master" or "Slave" operation. So I would assume that 601 was in "Master" operation. Then the throttle connects to a processor that actuates relays or other modules that control the electrical propulsion system which I have never read about there being a failure similar to a stuck accelerator (Audi) event. Railroad safety has always been tought to me as "fail-safe" so any thoughts there?
2. Ergonomic. Does the engineer push the throttle forward to accelerate or pull the throttle back to accelerate. Could a reflecive move have caused an erronious operation of the throttle? Any thoughts there?
Unrelated to this event but recalled because of it, when the D&H was running their PA-4's on Amtrak's Adirondack, I experienced a sensation I had never had before or since. It was south of Albany in the 90 mph section of the NYC line and the train was mking track speed. The coach I was in as we went around some curves felt like something was jolting it from the side. My analogy was a croquet ball being hit with a mallet, like something trying to force the car to turn. This was not a repetitive blow but it did recur multiple times. My mind kept thinking the wheels were trying to climb the rail but the sensation was of a force a from the side of the train, not a vertical force. Any thoughts.
Here or on the thread I started I proposed that the engineer's mind was fogged because of a spray due to a terrorist attack.
Thinking it over, it couldl have just as easily resulted from a slow leak of a gas main, detected before an explosion, but still affecting thought processes, or perhaps a local chemical factory had a problem and the gas cloud was released.
Excerpt from NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/us/projectile-problem-goes-beyond-amtrak-train-and-philadelphia.html
In 1905, a three-pound iron plumb bob hit a train carrying President Theodore Roosevelt in the stretch where Amtrak 188 apparently was hit, and “crashed through the stained-glass transom,” according to a New York Times article from the time. Railway officials at the time said stones often hit the train in the area, sometimes injuring passengers…
Karl Edler, a retired engineer who drove the line hundreds of times, said an impact could help explain the wreck. When a train pulls out of the North Philadelphia station, the engineer usually twists the throttle “up to notch eight, which is engineer-speak for wide open” he said.
It is about three miles to the curve where Amtrak 188 derailed.
“Usually you just leave the throttle open until you get up to 80 miles per hour, then put on the brake for the curve,” he said. “Seems reasonable that something happened right about that time he would have started slowing down that kept him from taking the throttle off. He was startled by the impact or whatever. And by the time he realized it, it was too late.”
... or perhaps it was a particle beam weapon from a Chinese satelite.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet ... or perhaps it was a particle beam weapon from a Chinese satelite.
...or an indigestible bit of dinner.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
wanswheel Excerpt from NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/us/projectile-problem-goes-beyond-amtrak-train-and-philadelphia.html . . . Karl Edler, a retired engineer who drove the line hundreds of times, said an impact could help explain the wreck. When a train pulls out of the North Philadelphia station, the engineer usually twists the throttle “up to notch eight, which is engineer-speak for wide open” he said. It is about three miles to the curve where Amtrak 188 derailed. “Usually you just leave the throttle open until you get up to 80 miles per hour, then put on the brake for the curve,” he said. “Seems reasonable that something happened right about that time he would have started slowing down that kept him from taking the throttle off. He was startled by the impact or whatever. And by the time he realized it, it was too late.”
. . . Karl Edler, a retired engineer who drove the line hundreds of times, said an impact could help explain the wreck. When a train pulls out of the North Philadelphia station, the engineer usually twists the throttle “up to notch eight, which is engineer-speak for wide open” he said.
This is starting to look like a plausible explanation of what happened.
/Mr Lynn
Here is an apperantly a well written outline of how persons behaved right after the wreck. An interesting item was Temple University had a student emergency response group that helped as well.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/The_wreck_of_Train_No_188.html
A number of years ago, I was sitting next to a window seat in a vehicle, and a private car drove into the side of the vehicle. It was not at a grade crossing, but it was the kind of accident where a car does drive directly into the side of a train at a grade crossing. The impact was just about where I was sitting, but it was not a low-floor vehicle, and the bottom of my seat was above the hood of the car. I blacked out completely, awoke to find the side panel below the window bent inward and touching my knee which I found had no more then a redish bruise-mark but no blood. Shatterred glass was all over the place, including on my cloths, but not on any exposed skin area, face, etc. I think I was out for a minute or less, because the driver was just getting up, pushed open the front door, and people began filing out. I wasn't really injured, turned down the offer of an ambulance ride to a hospital for check-up, but still I had blacked out immediately on the impact.
I also recall a summer-camp incident, at a very remote outpost we called "Phantom" reached by a hiking trail, about two miles from any road accessable by a wheeled vehicle, and long before the days of cell phones. I was 17, just between high-school and 1st year MIT. We were sitting around a campfire, dressed in shorts, in a large very open tent. Spagetti was cooking in a pot over the fire. The camper who was the cook decided the spagetti was ready, and as he lifted the pot off the fire, the handle broke, and the boiling spagetti covered my bare lower legs. The pain was so intense that I not only blacked out but my head hit the roof of the tent as a jumped up. I did not come to until I was lying on my back on one of the canvass cots in use as a stretcher, going down the trail. I learned the counselor with us probably saved my legs, and I did make a complete, if painful for a while, recovery, by opening the large butter jar packed in ice, using the butter to wipe off the spagetti and cool my legs at the same time. The recovery involved about five days in the infirmary and a week on crutches.
And I still eat spagetti. Italian food in general. We seem to have it every third day at the Yeshiva.
blue streak 1 WSJ dsyd Amtrak is to immedialy install signal indications for any reductions of 20 MPH before restarting service. Maybe reason not starting service until Tuesday ? This is same order that MNRR got after its wreck. Why was Amtrak not so ordered as well ? FRA incompetence ? when did Amtrac take 2nd man out of cab FUSE-
when did Amtrac take 2nd man out of cab
FUSE-
Do Amtrak electrics have deadman's control or just alerters? I thought they had deadman's control, meaning either positive pressure on the throttle and/or foot pedal to prevent a full service application.
If just alerters, then certainly sleep means no memory while asleep. And instinctive reactions are possible while at sleep.
Edited post superseded by newer info.
Have they determined yet that he was not affected by alcohol or drugs?
I can't speak to how Amtrak has configured their radio communications, and the recording of same.
On my carrier, whatever channel the Dispatcher logs into is recorded for the duration that the Dispatcher is logged into it. Dispatcher consoles are configured to access the road channel and the dispatchers channel for their territories.
Train crews must monitor the Road Channel. When crews tone in the Dispatcher, they tone in on the Dispatcher's channel. When the Dispatcher initiates at call to a train or other on track personnel, the call is made to the Road Channel, if the conversation will be involved the contacted party will be instructed to come to the Dispatchers channel, so a not to get walked over by all the other required communications that take place on the Road Channel.
Additionally there are designated Yard and MofW radio channels so that those communications don't get walked over on the Road channel. The Dispatcher does not have access to these channels.
On my carrier trains are to announce observed signal indications, scheduled passenger station stops, requests to enter MofW work zones and inspections of passing trains over the road channel. Additionally, with passenger trains the engineer will communicate the all these to the on board Conductor. Defect Detectors announce their presence as well as a defect report for each passing train. On a high volume, multiple track territory the radio traffic on the Road channel can become very congested.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Of course this could be more of the terrorist type activity that has been happening since 9/11. A thinking (evil) terrorist would attack us in ways we have not been attacked before or expect.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
dlund Have they determined yet that he was not affected by alcohol or drugs?
EuclidWith that in mind, I am greatly surprised that Robert Sumwalt said he wants to downplay the theory that the train was struck by gunfire. Why on earth would he publically announce anything that tends to downplay that theory before it is fully investigated by the FBI and others? Why would he even personally jump to the conclusion that nothing struck the train? To me, it sounds like he is downplaying this for some other reason besides the findings of the investigation, because the investigation is far from finished. Your answer from your own post is right in front of your eyes, in red, directly below: Robert Sumwalt said on CBS's "I've seen the fracture pattern; it looks like something about the size of a grapefruit, if you will, and it did not even penetrate the entire windshield," Sumwalt said.
Your answer from your own post is right in front of your eyes, in red, directly below:
Robert Sumwalt said on CBS's "I've seen the fracture pattern; it looks like something about the size of a grapefruit, if you will, and it did not even penetrate the entire windshield," Sumwalt said.
Boyd Of course this could be more of the terrorist type activity that has been happening since 9/11. A thinking (evil) terrorist would attack us in ways we have not been attacked before or expect.
Mr. Sumwalt's reluctance to divulge certain details is a basic principal of investigation. If you want to catch a bad guy, don't spook him. That may be the reason he won't share at this time.
That said, I'm still (impatiently) awaiting the results from the FBI.
narig01 dlund Have they determined yet that he was not affected by alcohol or drugs? A urine was collected at the hospital where Mr Bostian was treated for his injuries. The tested sample was free of any evidence of drugs or alcohol.
A urine was collected at the hospital where Mr Bostian was treated for his injuries. The tested sample was free of any evidence of drugs or alcohol.
narig01, thank you for the response. I had assumed that was checked immediately but I was not sure.
Thanks!
Norm48327 Mr. Sumwalt's reluctance to divulge certain details is a basic principal of investigation. If you want to catch a bad guy, don't spook him. That may be the reason he won't share at this time. That said, I'm still (impatiently) awaiting the results from the FBI.
Yeah, seriously, first time I heard the "wait until Monday" line from the FBI.
Whats up with that?
Norm48327 Mr. Sumwalt's reluctance to divulge certain details is a basic principal of investigation. If you want to catch a bad guy, don't spook him. That may be the reason he won't share at this time.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.