I have received clarification from my source that there is only one section of ACSES south of New York City. That section is in New Jersey where the Acela is allowed 135mph. All the rest of the NEC south of NYC is covered by a somewhat enhanced version of the Cab Signal system developed by Union Switch & Signal for the Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1920s. The system modulates a 100Hz carrier signal that is picked up by the Cab Signal equipment on board the locomotive or EMU. This gives 4 possible aspects, Restricting (20mph via unmodulated carrier signal), Approach (30 mph w/carrier signal pulsing at 75 pulses per minute), Approach Medium (45 mph w/ carrier signal pulsing at 120 ppm), and Clear (125 mph w/ 180 ppm).
The enhanced system added a second carrier signal at a base frequency of 250 Hz. The locomotive considers the signal being received on both carriers giving additional aspects, the most important of which is a pulsing of 120 ppm on both carriers giving a signal indication to the Engineer of Cab Speed (80 mph). If this Cab Signal coding had been applied between 30th Street and Shore Interlocking the train would have been going much slower and possibly not derailed, though passengers would have been thrown around some.
The locomotive was equipped to work with both the legacy Cab Signal equipment and the newer ACSES.
BaltACD I read in one of the news articles identifying the engineeer that he was from Boston.
I read in one of the news articles identifying the engineeer that he was from Boston.
beaulieu I have received clarification from my source that there is only one section of ACSES south of New York City. That section is in New Jersey where the Acela is allowed 135mph. All the rest of the NEC south of NYC is covered by a somewhat enhanced version of the Cab Signal system developed by Union Switch & Signal for the Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1920s. The system modulates a 100Hz carrier signal that is picked up by the Cab Signal equipment on board the locomotive or EMU. This gives 4 possible aspects, Restricting (20mph via unmodulated carrier signal), Approach (30 mph w/carrier signal pulsing at 75 pulses per minute), Approach Medium (45 mph w/ carrier signal pulsing at 120 ppm), and Clear (125 mph w/ 180 ppm). The enhanced system added a second carrier signal at a base frequency of 250 Hz. The locomotive considers the signal being received on both carriers giving additional aspects, the most important of which is a pulsing of 120 ppm on both carriers giving a signal indication to the Engineer of Cab Speed (80 mph). If this Cab Signal coding had been applied between 30th Street and Shore Interlocking the train would have been going much slower and possibly not derailed, though passengers would have been thrown around some. The locomotive was equipped to work with both the legacy Cab Signal equipment and the newer ACSES.
map of ACSES
http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/05/13/us/investigating-the-philadelphia-amtrak-train-crash-1431540334803/investigating-the-philadelphia-amtrak-train-crash-1431540334803-master495-v7.png
The 80 mph cab signal indication is used for diverging on high speed Xovers. The cab signal system governs only route and block occupancy based speeds. Permanent curve and other civil speed restrictions are transponder based. Work zone speeds are radio based (Amtrak is installing PTC radios along it's ROW).
NS and Conrail are hoping the PTC radios will allow for I-ETMS interoperability on the NEC rather than have to install full ACSES on a captive fleet of locomotives.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
narig01Could the 1st car have been crushed by the locomotive?
from looking at the pictures of the wreck, the first car took out a cat pole. The locomotive looks like it scraped along the LH side of the pole but the first car caught it solid. That collision twisted the car 180 longitudinally and bent it in half.
The one vestibule looks crushed on the RH side and there is a dent on the roof. Perhaps the cat pole caught the vesibule and the rear of the car launched upward such that the cat pole crushed the roof and allowed momentum from the rear of the car to the LH side of the cat pole to twist and bend the car, ripping the side from the floor.
I don't think I've ever seen a wreck picture with damage like that. The rest of the train looks like it skidded to the left of where the pole was.
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/2pdhHoUcQDLmGV_VKVybVw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTcwMDtpbD1wbGFuZTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz0xMDgw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/a0495b726aa25e15760f6a7067005c22.jpg
You can see the remnant of the cat pole laying against car #2
Bob Schuknecht BaltACD I read in one of the news articles identifying the engineeer that he was from Boston. It was reported on at least one TV network that the engineer was from Brooklyn.
It was reported on at least one TV network that the engineer was from Brooklyn.
I also read at least one article, one which identified him, that said he was from New York city, although I can't swear that it said Brooklyn. Perhaps you read his name, Bostian, and thought it said he was from Boston.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/14/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/
"The train's engineer was identified to CNN as 32-year-old Brandon Bostian of New York."
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
I misconstrued his name for his residence.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
beaulieu MrLynn Just heard a CNN interview with an NSTB board member, who said that the area of the crash was not protected by PCS/ACSES. He was not as specific as beaulieu is, nor did he say where else on the NEC PCS has not been implemented. He did say that PCS would have prevented this overspeed disaster (and the one at Spuyten Duyvil in NY). Makes me wonder about Amtrak's one-person-in-the-cab policy where PCS has not been installed. PCS is what? The NEC south of NYC is protected by a legacy PRR Cab Signal system, usually refered to as CSS(Cab Signal System). The Cab Signals have a limited number of aspects and only require the acknowledgement by the Engineer, rather than enforcing the speed restriction. Therefore they do not meet the requirements of the PTC mandate. With speeds north of NYC on the newly electrified trackage being as high as 150 mph, Amtrak choose Alstom Signaling's ACSES II system for that trackage. Alstom's ACSES system meets the requirement for PTC(Positive Train Control) and it was offered to the freight railroads. The freight railroads rejected the system as too expensive and with features that they did not need. The freight railroad's choice was Wabtec's V-ETMS system, which offered a lower price, and Wabtec agreed to license production of the various pieces of hardware to all of the other signalling system companies, which Alstom was reluctant to do. Alstom ACSES II
MrLynn Just heard a CNN interview with an NSTB board member, who said that the area of the crash was not protected by PCS/ACSES. He was not as specific as beaulieu is, nor did he say where else on the NEC PCS has not been implemented. He did say that PCS would have prevented this overspeed disaster (and the one at Spuyten Duyvil in NY). Makes me wonder about Amtrak's one-person-in-the-cab policy where PCS has not been installed.
Just heard a CNN interview with an NSTB board member, who said that the area of the crash was not protected by PCS/ACSES. He was not as specific as beaulieu is, nor did he say where else on the NEC PCS has not been implemented. He did say that PCS would have prevented this overspeed disaster (and the one at Spuyten Duyvil in NY).
Makes me wonder about Amtrak's one-person-in-the-cab policy where PCS has not been installed.
PCS is what? The NEC south of NYC is protected by a legacy PRR Cab Signal system, usually refered to as CSS(Cab Signal System). The Cab Signals have a limited number of aspects and only require the acknowledgement by the Engineer, rather than enforcing the speed restriction. Therefore they do not meet the requirements of the PTC mandate. With speeds north of NYC on the newly electrified trackage being as high as 150 mph, Amtrak choose Alstom Signaling's ACSES II system for that trackage. Alstom's ACSES system meets the requirement for PTC(Positive Train Control) and it was offered to the freight railroads. The freight railroads rejected the system as too expensive and with features that they did not need. The freight railroad's choice was Wabtec's V-ETMS system, which offered a lower price, and Wabtec agreed to license production of the various pieces of hardware to all of the other signalling system companies, which Alstom was reluctant to do.
Alstom ACSES II
Oops! Meant to type 'PTC' and instead typed 'PCS'. Old brains do strange things. Thanks for the correction.
/Mr Lynn
Where he's from makes no difference. For some reason the media waste ink and bandwidth on reporting stuff that is totally irrelevent i.e. where he's from, where he went to school, sexual orientation etc. Maybe they're attempting to establish that the train crashed because the engineer is a college educated gay man from Brooklyn.
dakotafred schlimm http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/amtrak-train-derails-crash-philadelphia.html 1. The NTSB confirms the train was going 106 mph, first in the 70/80 mph straight stretch leading to the 50 mph curve. 2. PTC in some form, if in place there, could have prevented the accident or mitigated it greatly. 3. Had the engineer been doing his job correctly, the accident could have been prevented. Whoops, that third point is a leap, precluding a mechanical failure. I will say, network news has just reported that the engineer "can't remember" the accident -- but has retained enough sentience to hire a lawyer. I will also say that humans are allowed to have accidents. They have job failures every day, and occasionally these are going to have tragic results. Their mechanical systems will also have the occasional tragic result. PTC might well have prevented this accident -- and will surely cause others.
schlimm http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/amtrak-train-derails-crash-philadelphia.html 1. The NTSB confirms the train was going 106 mph, first in the 70/80 mph straight stretch leading to the 50 mph curve. 2. PTC in some form, if in place there, could have prevented the accident or mitigated it greatly. 3. Had the engineer been doing his job correctly, the accident could have been prevented.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/amtrak-train-derails-crash-philadelphia.html
1. The NTSB confirms the train was going 106 mph, first in the 70/80 mph straight stretch leading to the 50 mph curve.
2. PTC in some form, if in place there, could have prevented the accident or mitigated it greatly.
3. Had the engineer been doing his job correctly, the accident could have been prevented.
Whoops, that third point is a leap, precluding a mechanical failure.
I will say, network news has just reported that the engineer "can't remember" the accident -- but has retained enough sentience to hire a lawyer.
I will also say that humans are allowed to have accidents. They have job failures every day, and occasionally these are going to have tragic results. Their mechanical systems will also have the occasional tragic result. PTC might well have prevented this accident -- and will surely cause others.
Well sure, it is possible the derailment could have been caused by faulty track or brakes, but it seems far more probable, given the 106 mph speed of train, that it was caused by human error, the engineer, whose name and where he is from being quite irrelevant. Yes, humans make errors. But when those errors lead to deaths and injuries, there must also be serious consequences, even if he is a railroad engineer.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Washington post editorial on more dollars for Amtrak and other transportation infrastructure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-steps-we-need-to-take-to-prevent-the-next-tragedy/2015/05/13/beaa84a0-f9af-11e4-a13c-193b1241d51a_story.html?hpid=z8
An examination of the Amtrak March performance report table 4.6 shows tha Amtrak has just put $6.0M+ into ACSES this year where as $15M was planned thru March. However table also shows $24M now planned thru end of year and $31M is budget. Appears that Amtrak is having to save all the pennies possible to meet its meager funding.
"According to NTSB Member Robert Sumwalt... noted that the ACSES system was not in use on that part of the corridor. He said had a PTC system been in use at the time of last night’s incident it might have prevented the wreck. "
from Trains Newswire
Some cant deficiency calculation:
4 degee curve with 5" superelevation, 50 mph = 2" cant def.
4 degee curve with 5" superelevation, 106 mph = 26" cant def.
4 degee curve with 5" superelevation, with 8" cant def. = 68 mph
(Japan runs HSR trains up to 8" cant def.)
oltmannd "According to NTSB Member Robert Sumwalt... noted that the ACSES system was not in use on that part of the corridor. He said had a PTC system been in use at the time of last night’s incident it might have prevented the wreck. " from Trains Newswire
The stretch of track where the train derailed was not equipped with an automated speed control system, Sumwalt said, adding that “had such a system been installed in this section of track, this accident would not have occurred.”
[from The Daily Beast]
Big difference.
Also, the crash came close to hitting a "Conrail" (sic!!) oil train. Later, the article mentions CSX oil tank cars.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/13/derailed-amtrak-cars-nearly-hit-bomb-train.html?source=TDB&via=FB_Page
The story I read says he remembers nothing after accelerating from 30th Street, including not remembering dumping the air.
blue streak 1 Washington post editorial on more dollars for Amtrak and other transportation infrastructure. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-steps-we-need-to-take-to-prevent-the-next-tragedy/2015/05/13/beaa84a0-f9af-11e4-a13c-193b1241d51a_story.html?hpid=z8 An examination of the Amtrak March performance report table 4.6 shows tha Amtrak has not put but $6.0M+ into ACSES this year where as $15M planned thru March. However table also shows $24M thru end of year and $31M on budget. Appears that Amtrak is having to save all the pennies possible to meet its meager funding.
An examination of the Amtrak March performance report table 4.6 shows tha Amtrak has not put but $6.0M+ into ACSES this year where as $15M planned thru March. However table also shows $24M thru end of year and $31M on budget. Appears that Amtrak is having to save all the pennies possible to meet its meager funding.
What was the PRR's "reasonable alternative route"? As far as I know, there was none between Philadelphia and New York City, though there were alternative routes between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. The writer of the editorial gives the impression that he/she has little knowledge of the area other than that Amtrak has a line through it and freight roads do have track that connects the two cities and is unaware that the other roads use motive power other than electric, and such power would have to provide electricity to the passenger cars.
I will not comment on the castigation of Amtrak because it has not fully equipped the corridor with the safety devices that might have prevented the wreck, except to say that the writer should know that Amtrak does not have unlimited funds.
Johnny
With respect to Dave's comment...
Makes me wonder about undiagnosed epilepsy. This would be consistent with not remembering anything after leavng 30th Street and apparently not manipulating th throttle after setting it to accelerate from the station.
Please keep in mind that the above is one possible explanation out of many.
- Erik
Euclid It is interesting that there are actually two speed violations here. One was heading into a curve with a 50 mph speed limit while traveling at over 100 mph. But as I understand it, the speed limit prior to the curve was 80 mph. So apparently, the engineer was exceeding the speed limit prior to entering the curve. I suppose they will be able to find a complete record of the train speed and learn where the train was when it first exceeded the speed limit. They say that the engineer cannot remember anything after he dumped the air. I would like to know what he can remember from before he dumped the air. It would take some time to accelerate from 80 mph to 106 mph. Failing to slow for a restricted curve due to forgetting about the curve, falling asleep, or distraction is a likely error, but this seems more complex than just failing to recognize the curve.
Especially when one considers that 30th Street, his last stop, was slightly over 3 miles away from the derailment site and with his speed it would have been less than 3 minutes from releasing the brakes and proceeding from 30th Street.
Every single and possible explanation for why the engineer was speeding and potentially caused this tragedy must be explored and eliminated until a final undeniable cause is found...and if he was to blame with no extenuating circumstances (such as the one mentioned earlier of undiagnosed epilepsy) then he should fry!
I think I remember seeing something about the way the brain stores events that may apply here. The brain works with short-term memory and takes some time to process and store data into long-term memory. I don't remember if this takes seconds or minutes, but in the case of a traumatic event the process is interrupted, and events for a brief period before the incident never get stored and can't be remembered.
(This is in response to Dave Klepper's post.) (edit)
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Death toll now at 8:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/14/amtrak-crash-focuses-on-engineer-who-says-cant-remember-what-happened/
He worked in the Midwest before moving to New York, and was promoted to engineer in 2010.
"He told me he liked Amtrak," a neighbor in his Forest Hills building, Moresh Koya, told the Daily News. "He was happy working there, nothing negative. He was happy with his job."
Euclid They say that the engineer cannot remember anything after he dumped the air. I would like to know what he can remember from before he dumped the air. It would take some time to accelerate from 80 mph to 106 mph. Failing to slow for a restricted curve due to forgetting about the curve, falling asleep, or distraction is a likely error, but this seems more complex than just failing to recognize the curve.
What if the engineer just fell asleep? How would that shape the blame?
Deggesty What was the PRR's "reasonable alternative route"? As far as I know, there was none between Philadelphia and New York City
What was the PRR's "reasonable alternative route"? As far as I know, there was none between Philadelphia and New York City
The Trenton Cutoff, Morrisville-Ft Washington, then Whitemarsh Branch to near Allen Lane station, then Chestnut Hill West to North Philly. I had heard that's the double tracked electrified detour they used for World War II's Congressional Limited wreck.
BaltACD Especially when one considers that 30th Street, his last stop, was slightly over 3 miles away from the derailment site and with his speed it would have been less than 3 minutes from releasing the brakes and proceeding from 30th Street.
OH - OH. Just to complicate this investigation more shots at trains have now been acknowledged. Partial cover up from local media and police ?
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_SEPTA_train_hit_by_projectile_before_Amtrak_crash.html
1.With a complex partial type seizure disorder, the sufferer could be unaware of his/her condition for months (or more) and that could be responsible for retrograde amnesia, especially if the temporal lobes are involved.
2. Head trauma, particularly affecting the temporal lobes, could have caused him to forget everything in the short period before the crash (retrograde). However, anterograde (after the trauma) amnesia is usually, though not always, seen as well. Spontaneous recovery is usual.
Another article about projectiles aimed at trains. Cat's out of bag and PHL mayor is going to have to do major damage control.
From an Amtrak ETT: 8.3 miles from 30th Steet to Frankford Jct.
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