Except for preservation of the Southwest Chief, proponents of the Raton Pass route for passenger traffic haven't yet shown it as a desirable or preferable alternative to other modes. Interstate 25 isn't stuffed with the likes of Megabus carrying folks between Denver, Albuquerque and El Paso. I don't even think The Hound serves this market. DEN-ELP nonstop flights are almost nonexistent. I don't know what to say about the proposal to reroute the SWC through Pueblo or Denver except as a possible abuse of recreational weed.
The probability of significant growth in north-south freight markets has not been shown. If the Mexican fantasy railroad to the El Paso area gets built, UP already has well built CTC routes to the west, northeast and east ready to go. BNSF has but single track dark territory to Belen - a possible export coal route?
I have to 'ride' with diningcar's outlook ....
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Well, I have to say that at present the naysayers have it. The fact that the EIS process is not as burdensome as I thought it might be for adding additional tracks is important.
To CS Hegewisch's point, the way I was thinking is that, due to increasing volumes, BNSF begins to triple track where feasible west from Cajon. When they get to Dalies, they have a choice- press on, at least to Amarillo I suppose, or recognise that they already have a third main all the way to Newton, plenty of spare capacity across CO and KS, for the most part fast and straight, albeit with an inconvenient hill. They might then think 'shoulda taken that left turn in Albuquerque'.
Another scenario is that, if congestion increases, differential train speeds reduce capacity. Everything slows down, can't run premium fast stuff (See GN at present). Building 3 tracks will take time and cost a phenomenal amount of money over that distance, so, to relieve the squeeze in some places, you run, say, faster stuff via Raton. (I have a favourite pic of a bunch of GEs led by C30-7 8120 at the top of Raton Pass with a shortish piggyback in 1981).
In this general vein, I understand that the hilly NYS&W is presently being used as a safety valve by capacity strapped CSX. Why, if things get real bad they could even bring the PRR from Crestline back in play!
There. I've almost convinced myself it might happen.
Homestake Pass next, but never I think Tennessee Pass, and certainly not the Milwaukee, which is a shame because the Olympian Hiawatha is on my to do list.
Good points. And now BNSF is working on ten miles of triple-tracking the line east of Belen for better flow into and out of the fueling pads. That said, the northern route has been used for emergencies including after the head-on a couple of years ago on the "new line" through Amarillo.
UChicago, do you have any info that the Raton line was used following the accident at Panhanle, TX? I am not aware that it was and I think UP detours were used at that time.
+1 to DC's comment.
They can't round up enough qualified pilots and crews...and get them back to the territory when they have planned moves. And with an unplanned emergency?
With only Amtrak using the Raton Pass line - it MAY be to the point that the ONLY qualified crews on the line are Amtrak's. If such is the case, then Amtrak would have to train and qualify BNSF crews to operate on this segment of BNSF track.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD With only Amtrak using the Raton Pass line - it MAY be to the point that the ONLY qualified crews on the line are Amtrak's. If such is the case, then Amtrak would have to train and qualify BNSF crews to operate on this segment of BNSF track.
Johnny
Another scenereo for return of freight traffic to Raton Pass: Electrification. I some predictions come true, that natural gas replaces petroleum as the main energy source, then possibly the cost of electric power will be low enough compared to othe rsources that electrication of the main transcontinental railroads will make economic sense. Once that occurs, the cost of etra power to tackle 3% grades may not prevent alternate use of an electrified Raton as a relief line. This may just be wishful thinking, but it is a possibility. Requuired are both the change in energy economics and the masive increase in traffic.
I believe the answer is - BNSF does not have any plans to operate their trains over this line. When detours are necessary they use UP tracks and, conversly, UP uses detours on BNSF when they have the need.
Perhaps occasionally a work train is necessary like for the washouts a few years ago; and I believe Amtrak crews who are qualified for this line are hired for this short, slow speed operation.
There should be enough old heads previously qualified that would need only a trip or two to requalify ?
blue streak 1, It appears BNSF does not wish to use this line. They have sold it between the east switch at Lamy to Albuq. to the State of NM. They do not wish to assume the cost of maintaining the RR to the standards required for freight operations and with the detours available in the RARE NEED situations they seem to be handling their business well on the double track, CTC , Transcon.
blue streak 1There should be enough old heads previously qualified that would need only a trip or two to requalify ?
I have my doubts on how many 'old heads' are still around. With RR Retirement being age 55 with 30 years service, many of those hired from 1970 on are well within the retirement parameters. I may be wrong but I don't think BNSF has used the Raton Pass line for it's own business for a decade or more, if that timeline is anywhere near correct there are very few people still working that ever ran the line.
diningcar blue streak 1, It appears BNSF does not wish to use this line. They have sold it between the east switch at Lamy to Albuq. to the State of NM. They do not wish to assume the cost of maintaining the RR to the standards required for freight operations and with the detours available in the RARE NEED situations they seem to be handling their business well on the double track, CTC , Transcon.
I wonder how that might change with the recent announcement of a federal transportation grant to lay welded rail and do tie replacement on the line to support Amtrak operations?
With the line in good shape it might be more attractive to BNSF for detours and occasional overflow trafficl.
(Much of it is already welded rail, especially on the hills with significant stretches of 132# jointed) The fun with the line starts when you put heavy freight trains in sidings with lightweight rail and a dearth of anchors.
Spent too many summers with a rail profile gage (think etch-a-sketch for rail engineers) up on Raton & Glorietta. I have my doubts on how effectively used the $$$ will be used when administered by State DOT's (clueless bus people)
3.5% grades tight clearences that can not fit double stack trains and a lack of qualified crews to run over it. There is no way Raton ever comes back from the dead.
At least it won’t be long before a certain Big-Barreled Baldwin gets a chance to stretch its legs on at least a portion of the Raton Pass Route.
kgbw49 At least it won’t be long before a certain Big-Barreled Baldwin gets a chance to stretch its legs on at least a portion of the Raton Pass Route.
Please elaborate for this confused reader.
ATSF 2926 - the Baldwin-built 4-8-4 Northern being restored in Albuquerque - should be able to utilize the Raton Pass line for running excursions.
ATSF 2926 has 80 inch drivers and a boiler with 300 lbs psi steam pressure. It is a member of the heaviest class of 4-8-4 Northerns ever built. It was equally at home on passenger and freight trains and could lope along at 90 mph.
The “big-barreled” moniker is a reference to its large boiler diameter.
https://www.newmexico.org/listing/new-mexico-steam-locomotive-%26-railroad-historical-society/2162/
http://steamtrainpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/091315_1411_AnotherLarg1.jpg
http://img.kansasmemory.org/thumb500/00207918.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fKi7BBEwLAI/TyHKr_qhGlI/AAAAAAAAAA0/5l6DKhsn630/s1600/2-Kistler+photo--2926+in+San+Diego.jpg
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/180072.jpg
And here is a classmate of 2926 on freight...
https://assets.train-simulator.com/app/uploads/article-images/3d2cf976-87ab-4a77-b15c-cb0bb536f471.jpg?width=640
ATSF 2926 is definitely a Big-Barreled Baldwin! Plus it is just fun to say it!
kgbw49 ATSF 2926 - the Baldwin-built 4-8-4 Northern being restored in Albuquerque - should be able to utilize the Raton Pass line for running excursions. ATSF 2926 has 80 inch drivers and a boiler with 300 lbs psi steam pressure. It is a member of the heaviest class of 4-8-4 Northerns ever built. It was equally at home on passenger and freight trains and could lope along at 90 mph. The “big-barreled” moniker is a reference to its large boiler diameter. https://www.newmexico.org/listing/new-mexico-steam-locomotive-%26-railroad-historical-society/2162/
Ah. That would be great to see. The only operating Santa Fe Steam I ever got to see was when the PRR leased some big beautiful 2-10-4's for use hauling coal from Columbus OH to Sandusky OH. back in the late fifties. Watched two accelerate their train after being stopped a Worthington. Great show.
Ah1That would be great to see. The only operating Santa Fe Steam I ever got to see was when the PRR leased some big beautiful 2-10-4's for use hauling coal from Columbus OH to Sandusky OH. back in the late fifties. Watched two accelerate their train after being stopped a Worthington. Great show. Found this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zOCNNw6t0
Mark Meyer
I rode this route with SW Chief and people in Raton and the Philmont Ranch boy scouts want to keep the Chief running on that route. Hope it works, as it is a scenic line.
The fate of the Raton Pass line is remarkably similar to that of the ex-PRR main through Fort Wayne in the 1980's and 1990's. Conrail routed through traffic onto other mains and the line became a glorified branch serving Amtrak and a handful of local freights. Amtrak eventually discontinued its service and the line is now the Chicago, Fort Wayne & Eastern.
It is interesting to see your post from 8 years ago given what PSR has done in the intervening years. Rather than double track by 2035, it seems railroads will be lucky to retain the traffic they have now after the recent meltdowns. We've also seen their strategy to manage traffic under PSR - pick and choose what you want and dump the rest.
No kidding.
Where is the precision?
Where is the schedule?
Where is the railroading?
A couple of more accurate wording for PSR could include but would not be limited to:
Poor Service Railroading
Pathetic Shortage of Railroaders
Pathetic Shortage of Real assets (locomotives and track capacity)
kgbw49 No kidding. Where is the precision? Where is the schedule? Where is the railroading? A couple of more accurate wording for PSR could include but would not be limited to: Poor Service Railroading Pathetic Shortage of Railroaders Pathetic Shortage of Real assets (locomotives and track capacity)
And now the govt. is telling UP to get the tardy grain trains to the chickens at Foster Farms.
Gramp kgbw49 No kidding. Where is the precision? Where is the schedule? Where is the railroading? A couple of more accurate wording for PSR could include but would not be limited to: Poor Service Railroading Pathetic Shortage of Railroaders Pathetic Shortage of Real assets (locomotives and track capacity) And now the govt. is telling UP to get the tardy grain trains to the chickens at Foster Farms.
I rely on Foster Farms for the Corn dogs, not their chickens.
kgbw49 No kidding. Where is the precision? Where is the schedule? Where is the railroading?
Theoretically, the ideal railroad has no track, no customers, and no trains. All those things are cost centres. Without them there would be no costs to allocate and the accountants could lay off everyone except themselves. Then they could just sit there and watch the company's profits roll in all day long.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude kgbw49 No kidding. Where is the precision? Where is the schedule? Where is the railroading? Theoretically, the ideal railroad has no track, no customers, and no trains. All those things are cost centres. Without them there would be no costs to allocate and the accountants could lay off everyone except themselves. Then they could just sit there and watch the company's profits roll in all day long.
Actually, that's sort of been done in another industry. In Montreal back in the 1980s there was a commercial carpet cleaning service that was raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in sales. Only, they didn't do carpet cleaning or anything else other than send out invoices for services not rendered. They started out legitimately enough.. but the owners soon noticed that wayward invoices for small amounts got paid anyway, and it wasn't a stretch from there to dispense with carpet cleaning altogether and simply send bills out... if they got paid great.. if not.. then that was ok too as no costs were incurred. Occasionally someone complained... "we didn't order or receive any carpet cleaning".. in which case the firm simply apologized for the "billing error". Eventually, after about a year or so.. they got greedy.. they nolonger let unpaid invoices go.. instead they followed up with threats of collection, and that's what finally did them in. So getting rid of everything except the accounting.. its been done!
"PSR disease" doesn't seem to be limited to the railroads. The CEO of Southwest Airlines from 2004(?) till a year ago was very focused on cost containment to the point of not updating the pilot scheduling software. Not sure how long it will take Southwest to win the trust of its customers.
One good thing from last weeks fiasco was that my older son was home for three more days than he was originally scheduled to be home.
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