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Raton Pass returns from the dead.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, January 5, 2023 7:43 AM

Erik_Mag
Southwest Airlines

I had the same thought when I heard some of the backstory of their meltdown.

That's what happens when people with no clue how a business operates try to run said business...

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Posted by MP173 on Thursday, January 5, 2023 4:16 PM

Southwest Airlines will be fine.

All companies have issues. Southwest has a certain amount of goodwill built up.  Plus, who else offers the service to points and frequency that they do?

That being said....fix the problem.

Ed

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Posted by MikeF90 on Thursday, January 5, 2023 4:45 PM

tree68
That's what happens when people with no clue how a business operates try to run said business...

Agree, and the new CEO seems to see the importance of upgrading their IT infrastructure. This is a HUGE project and will take several years, hopefully some good will remains after that.

Not mentioned here that another trigger of their meltdown was management arrogance toward critical front line personnel. The bad storm through their large Denver base resulted, indirectly, in more ramp personnel calling in sick. Management sent out a bulletin strongly suggesting they work sick and with even more overtime, doctors letter required, etc. As a result half the ramp guys quit and this cascaded to other locations.

The personnel replacement system crashed hard - too many transactions queued.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, January 9, 2023 2:04 AM

Coiuld a dinner train out of Albuquerque break even or better?

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, January 9, 2023 8:04 PM

daveklepper

Coiuld a dinnert train out of Albuquerque break even or better?

 

If we are still talking about Raton Pass, the start of the pass is 5 hours from ABQ.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 4:48 AM

Great.  A whole-day trip. Breakfast optional, lunch and dinner standard.  Leave at 8:30 Am, return at 8:30 PM.  Gourmet-quality, Kosher, Vegetarian, Salt-free, all options asvailable.  PA system used by tour-guide.

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Posted by OWTX on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 12:09 PM

BNSF: We've known since the 19th Century Glorieta and Raton are operational bottlenecks and money pits.

Railfans: More trains!

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Posted by azrail on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 3:06 PM

BNSF: We've known since the 19th Century Glorieta and Raton are operational bottlenecks and money pits.

Which is basically any RR that goes through mountains.

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Posted by SFbrkmn on Thursday, January 12, 2023 5:23 PM

As a BNSF trainman at Wellington, we do not want traffic moving over Raton (which it never well). That would mean less pool board slots for Wellks & Amarillo 

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Posted by Fred M Cain on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:43 AM

Dreyfusshudson

<SNIP>

With respect to clearances, I don't recall that many bridges between Albuquerque and Trinidad?- tunnel apart of course. Can't speak for La Junta to Kansas City- it's dark then! 

 
During a major traffic surge back in the '90s before the BNSF merger, I was under the distinct impression that AT&SF ran some double stack trains over the Trinidad line.
 
I recall seeing a picture in a magazine showing a double stack train on the line but cannot recall which magazine it was but quite possibly it was TRAINS.
 
If the double stack cars of today are a bit higher, then tracks could easily be lowered a bit in the tunnels and that'd be fine.
 
I have always suspected that, in addition to the steep grades and bad curves, the lack of CTC on the line helped doom it in the cabooseless train era.  There IS some CTC but only for some very short stretches.  BNSF just didn't think it was worth the money to upgrade the line when what they believe is a much better route is available.  Also, doesn't the State own much of the line in New Mexico, now?
 
I fully agree that the loss of the line would be a darn shame but I'm not sure how it can be saved long term.  For the few passengers that Amtrak carries over the line everyday, a major upgrade to the line does not strike me as a good long-term investment.
 
With these huge two-mile monsters that the freight roads are running today, running a 2½ mile long stack train over the line seems rather problematic at best.  But you never know.  As you said in your original post, things could change.  Maybe they'll discover lithium somewhere along the line in north-central New Mexico :)
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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:11 PM

(1) I was part of a crew that ran 8800 ft trains La Junta to Albuquerque during strikes in the 1980's using locotrol equipment. The surviving tunnel (newer and longer Tunnel 2) has a relay antenna along the crown and barely could accept double stacks .... Old wooden lined tunnel 1 could not even clear certain autoracks in the bad old days - got plugged more than once before they abandoned that tunnel)

(2) There are two (really three) bridges that will not allow stack trains.  (the bridge near Mora/Doolittle Canyon/Watrous just clears - even after the helicopter crashed into it) . The gusset plates foul the other two (especially the Canyoncito/ Apache Canyon bridge)....

All the old head qualified crews have just about all retired. Nobody BNSF still qualified to run that line. Plus there is the mess south of Las Vegas where the state of NM is not helping matters any. (no on-line business for 200+ miles does not help either)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:23 PM

MidlandMike

 

 
daveklepper

Coiuld a dinnert train out of Albuquerque break even or better?

 

 

 

If we are still talking about Raton Pass, the start of the pass is 5 hours from ABQ.

 

It would appear that Apache Canyon and Glorietta Hill need a little more love from the PR people fixated on Raton Pass.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Fred M Cain on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:23 PM

Well, all I can say is, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree, if given the chance, ride the train over the line while you still can because it might not be there tomorrow.

My wife and I rode out to Arizona on the Chief last year and it felt like a rail-oriented time machine.  Looking out the rear window, I kinda felt like I was looking back in time at my own childhood in the '60s.  What, with open-wire signal code lines, jointed rail and "searchlight" signals, it looked all the world like railroading in the '60s and early '70s.  There were even still a few semaphore blades left last year - not sure if they're still there or not.

So yeah, if you get the chance, ride the line.  If a miracle happens and the line does survive long-term afterall, 20 or 30 years from now it will almost certainly look much different.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 6:32 PM

I am hoping - against all odds - that 2926 will be able to pull an excursion or three over Raton Pass as an Amtrak extra.

It would be incredible to see The Biggest Northern That Ever Was stomp up and over the top to La Junta.

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Posted by RKFarms on Tuesday, October 31, 2023 7:08 PM

We just drove I-25 from ABQ to Springer yesterday, and there are still a few semaphores north of Glorieta. I am not sure quite where, pulling a trailer in traffic limits my ability to do any railroad surveying. There also a few searchlight signals in the same general area. 

After making two trips from the midwest to NW and SW corners of the lower 48 this year I have seen a lot of track go by my truck window. We took US 2 from the MN/ND line all the way to Everett WA, and the second trip followed old Rt 66 and the former Santa Fe line through NM and AZ. Another portion of that trip was I-8 and AZ 238, both of which follow the former SP main line. Shorter portions followed several former SF lines in OK and KS, and a bit of the SP/RI from Tucumcari to Santa Rosa, as well as short sections farther north. Sorry for making a short story long, but I do have an observational point to make, and that is, with the exception of the SW main lines, it looks like there is a huge investment in very lightly used rail lines. I realize that the infrastructure was paid for long ago, but maintenance, taxes, etc. would still be expensive for something that gets used maybe 10% of capacity. 

Is it economical to maintain this capacity?

Would it be more economical to pay a few more people to run shorter, more flexible trains, and look harder for business to fill them (even if it doesn't give as high a profit margin as current unit trains)?

All these are thoughts I have had while driving 10,000+ miles this summer, and I am only an observer with no expertise in these areas. I have a good internet connection here at the Emporia KS RV park, so I thought I would post this.

PR

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Posted by samfp1943 on Tuesday, October 31, 2023 9:18 PM

I hve not been over Raton in aprox 18 months(last was via DSW Chief0W0E) New to Albq.  On thiat trip there was equipment and rails and ties, staged atr the siding just Nof Glorieta.  Of course N of Albq the track was wellmantained (NM Roadrunner area (?). 

      Since Raton Pass is the 2x daily routing of the SWC, I am sure the mainenance is appopriate to the Class of track.  The ride AT THAT TIME W of Newton, Ks. to La Junta,Co. had all the dynamics of a carnival ride...(mostly bolted rail/track(?). 

 

 

 


 

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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 6:42 AM

Sam: Newton to La Junta had some of the last jointed rail laid on the Santa Fe (132#) in the late 1950's/ early 1960's. Some has been replaced in recent history, but most of it remains with end batter because of unpredictable tonnage and priority issues. Cropping and Holland welding in the field was discussed, but never happened. (there's only so much a roadmaster could do)

La Junta - Las Animas Jcn. went CWR because of coal trains on the Boise City Sub that appeared in the late 1970's. Between Las Animas Junction and Lamar the 1940's line change for John Martin Dam also created unexpected soils issues and ballast pockets that also complicated things.

There are production gangs out there right now in northern NM playing catch-up with tie and surface issues until the winter freeze hits. Qualified freight crews to run the trains on the old Santa Fe Northern Transcon are getting scattered, fewer and thinner in availability. The old northern transcon as an escape route gets less likely to be used the next time SFBrakie's bubbas screw up on the southern transcon. Should the need for premium dedicated high speed intermodal high speed service ever return, then the line might come back at some level. 

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Fred M Cain on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 8:37 AM

I really believe that I've posted this before but am inclined to do so again.

I could almost SWEAR that I once saw a picture years ago in TRAINS Magazine of a double-stack train on the Raton Pass line.  I'm thinking I saw such a photograph back in the early to mid '90s.

However, I have searched online and "Googled" and "Googled" but have never found any reference to such a photo or even any reference to such a subject matter.

Does anyone else recall this?  Perhaps I'm trying to remember something that I WANTED to see that in all reality just wasn't there.

But I'm certain of one thing.  There really was a time back either in the late '80s or in the '90s that the AT&SF reopened the line for through freight for however long that lasted.  I don't think it was more that a few trains per week.  But after the merger, BNSF just didn't want to do that anymore and spent all the funds they could beefing the south line through Amarillo,

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Posted by rdamon on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 10:29 AM

I see some old discussions about the tunnel being notched for Double Stacks but the clearance was close enough that containers still hit the sides so it was never used more than a few times.

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Posted by caldreamer on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 1:15 PM

Given todays political evironment vis a vis the US and China, I can not see the US giving money to Mexico to go to China.  What I could possibly see the US and the US and Mexican railroads as partners investing in Mexico in the form of rail ownership and partnerships with Mexican railroads.and ports. BNSF, UP and CNKCS already has infrastructure in Mexico and BNSF and UP connect directly with Mexican railroads.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 1:55 PM

caldreamer

Given todays political evironment vis a vis the US and China, I can not see the US giving money to Mexico to go to China.  What I could possibly see the US and the US and Mexican railroads as partners investing in Mexico in the form of rail ownership and partnerships with Mexican railroads.and ports. BNSF, UP and CNKCS already has infrastructure in Mexico and BNSF and UP connect directly with Mexican railroads.

 
?
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by caldreamer on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 9:17 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH:

If you do not understand what I posted, please reread slowly and carefully.  If you still do not understand please send me a private message and I will explain in detail.

 

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Posted by J. Bishop on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 9:22 PM

I think the question is what your post has to do with Raton Pass.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Wednesday, November 1, 2023 10:11 PM

??? Possibly, cross posted Threds????  

 

 


 

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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, November 2, 2023 8:14 AM

New Mexico vs. Old Mexico? :)

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, November 2, 2023 10:02 AM

I'm wondering why he injected politics into this thread.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Backshop on Thursday, November 2, 2023 10:28 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

I'm wondering why he injected politics into this thread.

 

It's not the first time...

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Posted by Backshop on Thursday, November 2, 2023 10:29 AM

caldreamer

CSSHEGEWISCH:

If you do not understand what I posted, please reread slowly and carefully.  If you still do not understand please send me a private message and I will explain in detail.

 

 

No one else understands it, either.  So why don't you just post it without any cuteness?  Or is this more "secret squirrel" stuff?

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Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, November 2, 2023 11:24 AM

rdamon

I see some old discussions about the tunnel being notched for Double Stacks but the clearance was close enough that containers still hit the sides so it was never used more than a few times. 

Spelczech's cousin Faktczech needs to ask where this came from? (the new tunnel has never been notched for any reason - plenty large already. The old wood-lined tunnel has been courderoyed/ sealed shut for almost 65 years.)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 2, 2023 12:23 PM

I believe the Super-C AT&SF high-speed freight train used the route more than once.  When lightly loaded, it was logical because the route is shorter.  And this was before double-stacks.

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