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America's railroads: The "poster boy" for graffiti vandalism.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, July 25, 2014 4:40 PM

jimnorton
I am going to take the same stance of: "graffiti covered cars carry freight just as well as non graffiti cars" when it comes to my lawn. And that is there is no financial return for me to keep it mowed and manicured. My yard still contains my house whether its knee high or freshly cut. So why bother? The reason I mow my yard is for the good of the community. The railroads should have the same respect for the communities they serve as I do for the community I live in. If someone throws trash in my yard I pick it up. One has to wonder how much graffiti vandalism has been inspired by graffiti covered freight cars touring the nation over the last decade? It is irresponsible for America's railroads to promote images of crime and decay. Plain and simple.

Most incorporated areas have some form of laws concerning grass cutting. I have received warnings from my city when my mower was in the shop and 'excellent growing conditions' existed for about 3 weeks.  Grass cutting and graffiti are apples & kumquats. 

There may also be laws about graffiti on permanent structures, or there may not.  If there aren't, there is no obligation to eliminate the graffiti.

Individuals and corporations operate in their own best interests within the letter of the law.

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, July 25, 2014 7:06 PM

jimnorton
I am going to take the same stance of: "graffiti covered cars carry freight just as well as non graffiti cars" when it comes to my lawn. And that is there is no financial return for me to keep it mowed and manicured. My yard still contains my house whether its knee high or freshly cut. So why bother? The reason I mow my yard is for the good of the community. The railroads should have the same respect for the communities they serve as I do for the community I live in. If someone throws trash in my yard I pick it up. One has to wonder how much graffiti vandalism has been inspired by graffiti covered freight cars touring the nation over the last decade? It is irresponsible for America's railroads to promote images of crime and decay. Plain and simple.

Unless your lawn is at the point of housing small game and large rodents, there really isn't any "community good" in a short-cut lawn. 

Just an excuse for little fiefdoms to exercise their limited power.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, July 25, 2014 8:30 PM

jimnorton
I am going to take the same stance of: "graffiti covered cars carry freight just as well as non graffiti cars" when it comes to my lawn. And that is there is no financial return for me to keep it mowed and manicured. My yard still contains my house whether its knee high or freshly cut. So why bother? The reason I mow my yard is for the good of the community.

Tell you what - we'll plant a lawn for you on a flat car.  We'll expect you to keep it mowed and weeded.  While we send it hither and yon.

One of the most heavily graffitied fleets is the perishables - the "salad shooter."  Nice white cars begging to be used as canvasses.  Can't blame the railroads for not keeping them painted nice and clean because the railroads don't own them.


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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, July 25, 2014 8:51 PM

zugmann
  Unless your lawn is at the point of housing small game and large rodents, there really isn't any "community good" in a short-cut lawn. . . . [snipped - PDN]

 Mischief  Heck, housing small game and large rodents is about the only usefulness I have for any kind of lawn (other than the exercise of walking back and forth once or twice a month or so to mow it, for no real useful purpose that I can discern.  Whistling  See: http://www.prairienursery.com/store/no-mow-lawn ).  All around is 2+ acres of woods and higher brush and other plants ("They're all green to me !"), so it doesn't stand out - er, up - too much.   

- Paul North.      

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 25, 2014 9:02 PM

With the climate down here, once a week mowing is cutting it close..Stick out tongue

Seriously, if they would let me keep a goat, or maybe a few sheep, the problem would be solved,

And you get to barbecue in the end!

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Posted by SALfan on Friday, July 25, 2014 10:04 PM
Ed B. - I feel your pain. Plentiful rain, when it happens, threatens to work me to death. At least the grass doesn'tbite, sting or suck blood like the bajillions of insects the climate here helps produce.
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Posted by Ulrich on Friday, July 25, 2014 11:56 PM
Who cares about community good... I just like a nice home and nice well kept property for my own enjoyment.
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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 26, 2014 4:32 AM

edblysard
Seriously, if they would let me keep a goat, or maybe a few sheep, the problem would be solved,

I don't think they'd trust a railroader with sheeps or goats.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by ccltrains on Saturday, July 26, 2014 6:54 AM

Ulrich I bought a house in a nice area because I like a nice looking neighborhood.  We have zoning and HOA to prevent some slime moving in and trashing his house/yard with abandoned cars etc in the yard. This makes an eye sore and lowers the value of all of the properties in the neighborhood.

Yes the graffiti on rail cars is unsightly but it is almost impossible to prevent except for employing a couple million railway police.  We could keep the trains in constant motion so the "canvass" is not accessible.  Unless we double track every line so there are no stops to pass another train (will not ever happen) and have high speed loading/unloading (impossible) the cars will continue to be "canvasses".

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:10 AM

ccltrains
[snipped - PDN] . . . We could keep the trains in constant motion so the "canvass" is not accessible.  Unless we double track every line so there are no stops to pass another train (will not ever happen) and have high speed loading/unloading (impossible) the cars will continue to be "canvasses".

  Those are the solutions to this and a lot of other problems - "Keep 'em moving !".  Multiple track and non-stop meets /passes are becoming more common as the traffic volume increases (though not universal, I concede).  Intermodal and bulk train terminals are almost all fenced-in and patrolled by security/ railroad police - mainly for theft prevention, but also for anti-terrorist, trespassers (which includes 'taggers', etc.) - so that portion of the problem can also be controlled.

Those that are caught ought to be sentenced to a few months of scraping it off and repainting the cars in a hot summer sun.  Just chain 'em to the car !

Do other countries have this problem ?  Canada (excluding interchange cars from the US, of course ?)  Mexico ? (ditto)  Japan ?  European ones ?  ( Mischief Too cold in Russia for the paint to work most of the time, I suppose)  China ?  Etc.

- Paul North. 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, July 26, 2014 10:19 AM

.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by NorthWest on Saturday, July 26, 2014 12:28 PM

Canada and Mexico seem to have the same problem. In my experience in Europe, Swiss trains were sparklingly clean, Italian trains were covered in graffiti (even passenger cars) and the French trains were sort of in the middle.

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Posted by edblysard on Saturday, July 26, 2014 7:23 PM

zugmann

edblysard
Seriously, if they would let me keep a goat, or maybe a few sheep, the problem would be solved,

I don't think they'd trust a railroader with sheeps or goats.

Well yeah, there is that…..

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Posted by jimnorton on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:22 PM

Lets back way up......The point is NOT that the railroads should be graffiti free.  The point here is the railroads should do something, anything to combat this blight.  We see nothing meaningful.

All of us, given an hour, could find numerous freight cars covered in graffiti.  And, given a source of paint we could paint out a portion of these graffiti tags.  Thats "buffing" and its an insult and discouragement to the "artist.".  The cars do not have to be taken out of service to be buffed.  After all, they weren't taken out of service to covered end to end in graffiti.  This could be done in yards across the nation.  Rig up a vehicle with a paint compressor and the railroads could easily send a much needed message.

The public still perceives the railroads as a dying industry and that "everything moves by truck."  Take that image and plaster it with graffiti and the perception is enforced.   It's the "public be damned" all over again.

Jim Norton

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Posted by jimnorton on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:29 PM

Definition:  "Buffing" is to partially paint over a graffiti tag.  Unlike repainting the freight car, buffing does not offer a "fresh canvas."  By destroying part of the graffiti tag the work is defaced.  And that, destroys much tagger ego.

There lies the method to combat graffiti vandalism on the nation's rails.  Not repaints. 

Jim Norton

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Posted by dehusman on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:39 PM

jimnorton

The cars do not have to be taken out of service to be buffed.  After all, they weren't taken out of service to covered end to end in graffiti.  This could be done in yards across the nation.  Rig up a vehicle with a paint compressor and the railroads could easily send a much needed message.

 
Taggers don't have to comply with OSHA and FRA safety regulations.
Tagggers don't have to comply with railroad environmental regulations regarding paint vapors.
 
Why would railroads want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars painting over graffiti only to have it re-tagged the next time the car was spotted at industry or set out in a track?
 
"Buffing" only works if the taggers know their work has been buffed.  That works well for a stationary object, but for a car they will never see again, they will never know or care.  I'm sure taggers don't keep records on which car numbers they paint.  They tag a car, the railroad repaints it, spots it at industry, the taggers don't know whether its a repainted car or just a new car.  They are sure its a blank canvas for them.

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Posted by jimnorton on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:47 PM

There is also a term called "benching."  That is where admirers of graffiti gather to watch the "art work" of a passing train.  There are internet sites devoted to freight car graffiti as well.  If these tags were suddenly being buffed I assure you the word would be out.  These taggers photograph their work.  Before it ended, they could even trace the routing of their work via the host railroad's web site!

As far as the EPA.  I can go out and paint an entire house or building but can't paint two or three panels on a boxcar?   That's a story for another day|! 

Jim Norton

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:50 PM

Graffiti vandals have been "buffing" each others' works for years.  Doesn't seem to have made much difference.

And who is going to pay for these trucks, paints, labor, etc? 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by jimnorton on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:51 PM

 
"Why would railroads want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars painting over graffiti only to have it re-tagged the next time the car was spotted at industry or set out in a track?"
Once again.................Buffing does not paint over graffiti "only to have it re-tagged the next time the car was spotted...."   It is much more difficult to cover portions of left over graffiti in lieu of a freshly painted surface. 

Jim Norton

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:52 PM

jimnorton

  It is much more difficult to cover portions of left over graffiti in lieu of a freshly painted surface. 

I've seen plenty of stuff out there covering previous stuff.  Just takes more paint.

I don't like all this crap on the cars, either.  But then again, is it worth spending millions of dollars on? 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by jimnorton on Monday, July 28, 2014 2:13 PM

I don't know where the idea that preventive measures would cost millions of dollars comes from.

Give me four cans of .99 cent brown primer spray paint from Wal Mart  and I can "buff" 40 square feet of graffiti on a typical boxcar.

That equates to $3.96 per boxcar.  With 70,000 North American Boxcars that equals $277,000.00. 

Or $39,600.00 worth of paint per Class One to buff ever boxcar!   Big Smile

Jim Norton

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, July 28, 2014 2:18 PM

jimnorton

I don't know where the idea that preventive measures would cost millions of dollars comes from.

Give me four cans of .99 cent brown primer spray paint from Wal Mart  and I can "buff" 40 square feet of graffiti on a typical boxcar.

That equates to $3.96 per boxcar.  With 70,000 North American Boxcars that equals $277,000.00. 

Or $39,600.00 worth of paint per Class One to buff ever boxcar!   Big Smile

You work for free?  Most RRers don't.

And "buffing" would make the boxcars look even worse.  Is vandalizing the vandals' vandalism really any different than the vandals' initial vandalism? Crap sprayed on a car is crap sprayed on a car.

If the gang tags that get sprayed on the more "creative"  "art"work don't stop the "artists", then I doubt "buffing" will make much difference.

I'm out of quotation marks.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by dehusman on Monday, July 28, 2014 3:57 PM

jimnorton

Give me four cans of .99 cent brown primer spray paint from Wal Mart  and I can "buff" 40 square feet of graffiti on a typical boxcar.

That equates to $3.96 per boxcar.  With 70,000 North American Boxcars that equals $277,000.00. 

Or $39,600.00 worth of paint per Class One to buff ever boxcar!   Big Smile

 
The original premise was that the graffitti was a "blight" on the image of the railroads.
 
The proposed solution is to paint one or two panels on one side of a boxcar brown. 
 
How does painting a patch 4 ft high and 10 ft long brown on one side of a 50-60 ft long boxcar tagged 5-6 ft high along the full length reduce the car from being a "blight"?  You still have 350-600 sq ft of boxcar side that's tagged (more if you consider the patch a poorly done tag). 

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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 9:29 AM

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 1:07 PM

dehusman
How does painting a patch 4 ft high and 10 ft long brown on one side of a 50-60 ft long boxcar tagged 5-6 ft high along the full length reduce the car from being a "blight"?  You still have 350-600 sq ft of boxcar side that's tagged (more if you consider the patch a poorly done tag). 

Even moreso if one considers the autorack I saw once which had the entire side tagged by one "artiste" (or group, as it were), end-to-end, top-to-bottom.  It certainly represented a lot of shoplifting of matching paint...

I'm sure there are more like it.

And, as I mentioned earlier, there's a reason the taggers have generally learned to leave the reporting marks, etc, intact.

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Posted by MarknLisa on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 3:46 PM

You'd think our chemists could come up with a spray paint resistant coating.  The spray could bead up and roll away like water on a Rain-X'ed windshield.

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Posted by Kyle on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 6:28 AM

In some states I believe it is legal to shoot trespassers if you first fire a warning shot.  So, give a few crews a rifle and if they see someone vandilizing property, then they fire a warning shot, and if the person doesn't stop defacing property, shoot them. A few stories on the news, and graffiti on railroads will almost stop. If the police get mad at the RR, then you can say you are worried that these people are terrorist, and you are worried about them blowing up a train. General trespassers will be given a warning to get off RR property.  Also, give crews spray cans of common colors, and when they are checking the train, they can cover some of the graffiti.  If crews did this every week, there would be almost no graffiti.  Problem solved!!!

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Posted by gardendance on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:02 AM

Kyle, could you please list the states in which you believe this is true, and if possible link to supporting documentation?

I'm pretty sure it's illegal in all states to use deadly force to protect property. Trespassing with clear threat to people, in which I believe it is legal to thwart with deadly force, is not the same as trespassing in general and property damage in particular.

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Posted by Kyle on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:27 AM

gardendance

Kyle, could you please list the states in which you believe this is true, and if possible link to supporting documentation?

I'm pretty sure it's illegal in all states to use deadly force to protect property. Trespassing with clear threat to people, in which I believe it is legal to thwart with deadly force, is not the same as trespassing in general and property damage in particular.

I am pretty sure the point that people messing with rolling stock could cause a massive derailment of a train, especially an oil train.  Imagine if a bomb was attached to a tank car and then blown up when the train was in the middle of a highly populated area traveling at a decent speed.  If terrorist planted several bombs on oil trains to explode on major cities at the same time, the results would be horrific.  It would also send the railroads into chaos.  Already, traffic is backed up.  Several huge derailments would make that worse.  If a terrorist blows up the bomb when the train is on a bridge, that route would be closed for months or years.  Or worse, an chemical train being blown up in a populated area could kill and injure hundreds, and contaminate water.  Is that not enough of a reason to keep people from tampering with rolling stock.  Or are we going to just sit around and wait, saying that's not going to happen, and have another 9/11?  This is a major security problem, and it needs to be fixed.  If the Railroads were smart they would reach out to the public and tell people to report suspicious activity, Railfans could "patrol" the right of ways and report anything suspicious which would cover more area than just the RR police cover, it would be like adding a bunch of guards.  No one can completely protect the RR infrastructure and rolling stock, but you can minimumize risk.

This plan would also help top graffiti as an added bonus.

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:13 AM

Kyle
 This is a major security problem, and it needs to be fixed.  If the Railroads were smart they would reach out to the public and tell people to report suspicious activity, Railfans could "patrol" the right of ways and report anything suspicious which would cover more area than just the RR police cover, it would be like adding a bunch of guards.  No one can completely protect the RR infrastructure and rolling stock, but you can minimumize risk.

But how could we trust the railfans?  They could be a security risk.  Better stop people from railfanning, too.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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