Village evacuated after Quebec train derailment

[BroadwayLion]

rcdrye

f the cars left Nantes without the locomotives then the locomotives had to have been cut off and moved to a track that wasn't in the way of the cars that got loose.  Google maps shows single track at Nantes itself witha siding just east of the town center.

Correct. So if a train was to be laid up there for the night, they would have parked the train in the siding, would have detached the locomotives and would ride them back to Nantes, and then tie them up at the west end of the siding near the motel where the were staying. Not that it looks like that there is much of a motel in Nantes, I'd rather tie up in Lac Megantic, but maybe the siding was not long enough for them there.

LOOKS like to LION that they detached the engines to get back to a motel, and did not set enough brakes on the oil drums.

ROAR

[Anonymous]

Joe McGonigle, Montreal, Maine & Atlantic's vice president of marketing, said that whatever the engineer did in regard to securing the train, he was not the last man to touch the train.

McGonigle said that people from the fire department and an employee from the railroad’s engineering department were summoned to extinguish a small fire on the locomotive sometime after the engineer had secured the train and gone to bed. 

It seems to me that a fire on the locomotive and people doing things in the course of extinguishing it pose lots of possibilities for inadvertently releasing the brakes. 

Just for example, a fire on the locomotive of a flammable train might be a reason to cut the locomotive off of the train.  I get the impression that the MM&A knows a lot more about what happened than they are telling us.

Their explanation sounds speculative, and yet one of their employees was at the scene when a fire was found and extinguished shortly before the train ran away.  Whey don't they ask that employee what happened? 

[rcdrye]

So far no one seems to have noticed that Nantes is WEST of Lac Megantic and New Brunswick (the train's destination) is EAST of there.   If the cars left Nantes without the locomotives then the locomotives had to have been cut off and moved to a track that wasn't in the way of the cars that got loose.  Google maps shows single track at Nantes itself witha siding just east of the town center.

Many buildings in the US Northeast and Eastern Canada have large propane tanks near them.  It's quite possible the derailed cars sheared off valves or pipes.

[eolafan]

Around here on BNSF when a dispatcher or yardmaster tells a road crew to "tie her down" it refers to the crew setting the air brakes, applying a certain number of car hand brakes behind the power (the exact number depends on the length of the train in number of cars), centering the reverser on "idle" and removing the reverser and locking the cab door(s).  If all/most of these same things were done on this train we're talking about then something is "amiss" for sure and makes me suspect foul play even more than before.  Time and investigation results should reveal the cause sooner or later.

[daveklepper]

A cut of freightcars, standing alone, will not hold air pressure in its brake cylinders forever.   Air leaks off gradually, and after about 2-1/2 hours, the brakes will start to release.  Sooner under some weather and humidity conditions.  That is why a standing cut of cars needs its handbrakes set.   The number of cars requiring handbrakes set out of the total in the cut depends on the grade situaiion.  With a severe grade, all cars need handbakes set.   On level ground, one in five.

[pkazmir]

Someone help me understand - how could shutting down the engine, or decoupling it, release the brakes on the tank cars? Wouldn't they all apply fully without any air pressure in the line?

Everything I've read about this makes no sense whatsoever.

[AgentKid]

Irving Oil has released a statement confirming they were to be the recipient of the oil at their Saint John, NB refinery.

http://irvingoil.com/newsroom/news_releases/declaration_sure_la_tragedies_de_lac_megantic/

Bruce

[Anonymous]

Maybe I should clarify that the fire I was referring to above (and the article refers to) was not the big fire where the tank cars piled up.  No, the fire mentioned above happened before the train ran away. 

So the engineer/conductor parked the train, set the brakes, and checked into a hotel for the night.  Next thing you know someone sees that his locomotive is on fire and they call the fire department and they show up along with another employee from the railroad’s engineering department.  Whatever they did about the fire on the locomotive, the train rolled away shortly afterward.    

[Murphy Siding]

....the Senator, while admitting no wrongdoing, could not explain his nakedness....

[Mookie]

blownout cylinder

mmmmmm...it all seems a little strange...mmmm

Then this is the perfect place for it!  

[blownout cylinder]

mmmmmm...it all seems a little strange...mmmm

[Anonymous]

Now this is a really strange and pregnant detail to emerge from the constantly stumbling explanation of what happened to this train.  After the engineer left his train for the night, the locomotive caught fire, and the fire department was called to deal with it.

 

    

QUOTE FROM THE LINK: 

Lauzon, the fire chief, said that firefighters in a nearby community were called to a locomotive blaze on the same train a few hours before the derailment. Lauzon said he could not provide additional details about that fire since it was in another jurisdiction. Nantes Fire Chief Patrick Lambert couldn't be immediately reached, but McGonigle confirmed the fire department showed up after the first engineer tied up and went to a local hotel and after someone reported a fire.

"We know that one of our employees from our engineering department showed up at the same time to assist the fire department. Exactly what they did is being investigated so the engineer wasn't the last man to touch that train, we know that, but we're not sure what happened," McGonigle said.

 

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/07/canadian_train_derailment_death_toll_climbs_to_5_in_lac-megantic_quebec_about_40.html

[BaltACD]

zugmann

If nothing else, boys and girls, I have a feeling the FRA will be paying special attention to handbrake rules and requirements.

The FRA has been paying attention to hand brake rule compliance for the past several years.  There have been several US incidents that were caused by improper hand brake application.

Personally a train on my territory stalled on a hill because of a engine failure.  Train stopped between swtiches of a siding.  The nearest engine was 20 miles behind the train.  Train was instructed to secure their train and cut the power off and return to the nearest available engine.  Crew reqested the signal behind the train be lined in case the train roilled back during their hand brake test - conductor reportedly tied on 25 hand brakes - when the air was released the train did in fact roll back down the hill, emergency application was made and after stopping additional hand brakes were applied - 45 which was 1/2 the train.  With the route to the nearest engine being blocked, a recrew brought power from the other end of the line.  Total delay 8 hours.

[Firelock76]

karldotcom

National Post

Here is the clearest picture I have seen of the crash site.  The "crowded bar" is purportedly the 5th bldg, or where the firefighters on the ground are in front of with two streams of water...

My God.  It looks like a German railyard in 1945 after the 8th Air Force got through with it.

[Ulrich]

I was visiting my mom's over the weekend and had cycled up to Champlain College in Lennoxville at around 8:00 am on Saturday morning. I usually cycle over the MM&A tracks after taking a bit of a break at the crossing, but on Saturday I say a guy in brown dress shorts and polo shirt walking along the track and taking pictures. At first I thought that maybe he was a nature buff, but he was taking pictures of the track. He would walk a few feet and then take pictures. I was going to ask him about it but decided not to. When I got back  home my mom told me about the accident.

[zugmann]

If nothing else, boys and girls, I have a feeling the FRA will be paying special attention to handbrake rules and requirements.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that information Bruce and karldotcom.  That makes a possible explanation much more plauible. 

[karldotcom]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/montreal/Railway+company+issues+statement/8625983/story.html

New Info:

While the governmental investigation of the accident's cause has largely prevented MMA from completing its own investigation, one fact that has emerged is the locomotive of the oil train parked at Nantes station was shut down subsequent to the departure of the engineer who had handled the train from Farnham, which may have resulted in the release of air brakes on the locomotive that was holding the train in place. As mentioned above, we don't have complete information concerning this incident, but will cooperate with government authorities as they continue their investigation.

[AgentKid]

Bucyrus

1)       Did the entire train run away; or did only part of it run away?  They make it sound like the whole train ran away.

2)      The train was left unattended at 11:30 PM.  When did the derailment happen?

...

4)      Which direction was the train bound and which direction did it runaway?

I have been away dealing with family stuff, so I just now have time to post. Not having been to the area myself but putting info together from many sources including other threads here.

1) The entire train rolled away EB, got into Lac Megantic, derailed and separated. The engines were found another 1 km. further down the track.

2) The accident is reported to have happened between 1:00 and 1:30 AM EDT.

4) This was a EB loaded train heading from Montreal on the MM&A (former CP - International of Maine Division, sold in 1988-9 IIRC) to the Irving Oil Refinery in Saint John, NB. Oil trains from the Bakken headed toward refineries on the US East Coast would turn south at Montreal and proceed down the D&H.

This is going to be an extremely difficult incident, in terms of understanding the media, because this happened in a very French speaking area of the province. All of the local reporting would be done in French, then translated into English, supplement by the media's vast understanding of railway matters.

"Tanker Wagons". Tanker- the latest English media name for tank cars. Wagon - the literal translation of the French word for railway car, which escapes me right know, but when you live north of the 49th, you hear it often enough.

Bruce

[schlimm]

zardoz

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus

Here is the beginning of the reaction that will make this the most costly train wreck in history:

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0707/Does-Canada-train-blast-show-danger-of-oil-transport-in-US

  Reading the information further down the page from that link, I see that Zuily has a sale on All sizes / All shapes dresses, with daily deals up to 90% off.  It's just as easy to interpolate that little tidbit as proving that this won't be the most costly trainwreck in history.

Quite true.  Back in 1996 the Wisconsin Central derailed 30+ cars right in downtown Weyauwega, Wi, including 7 propane cars and 2 sodium hydroxide. This derailment destroyed many buildings and caused the evacuation of the entire town for 20 days; fortunately, no one was injured or killed.

The result of that derailment: once the site was cleaned up, train began rolling, just like before. No proclamations crying for propane to be taken off the rails, no demands that the railroad move elsewhere. Although the mayor of Weyauwega did praise the WC for their quick response to the wreck.

Edward Burkhardt was the CEO of WC back then.  He is the CEO of the holding company for the railroad involved in the current  disaster.  Back then, WC engineers were non-union with a single engine crew, as is his current operation.

[karldotcom]

National Post

Here is the clearest picture I have seen of the crash site.  The "crowded bar" is purportedly the 5th bldg, or where the firefighters on the ground are in front of with two streams of water...

[Anonymous]

Maybe the LION will chime in and explain it to you. 

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

Maybe some of our railroaders could chime in on what it would take to bottle the air, and whether it would hold for the 7 mile runaway. 

Ummm....Seriously, I hope no railroader is stupid enough to chime in on that.   Come on, Bucyrus, of all the things I have read here that left me scratching my head, that takes the whole cake. 

[zardoz]

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus

Here is the beginning of the reaction that will make this the most costly train wreck in history:

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0707/Does-Canada-train-blast-show-danger-of-oil-transport-in-US

  Reading the information further down the page from that link, I see that Zuily has a sale on All sizes / All shapes dresses, with daily deals up to 90% off.  It's just as easy to interpolate that little tidbit as proving that this won't be the most costly trainwreck in history.

Quite true.  Back in 1996 the Wisconsin Central derailed 30+ cars right in downtown Weyauwega, Wi, including 7 propane cars and 2 sodium hydroxide. This derailment destroyed many buildings and caused the evacuation of the entire town for 20 days; fortunately, no one was injured or killed.

The result of that derailment: once the site was cleaned up, train began rolling, just like before. No proclamations crying for propane to be taken off the rails, no demands that the railroad move elsewhere. Although the mayor of Weyauwega did praise the WC for their quick response to the wreck.

[Anonymous]

Well yes, even in the case of that latest link, I had to read between the lines and connect all the dots between those tanker wagons.  Here is what the link says:

“… the train’s conductor locked the brakes and checked that the rail cars were secure shortly before midnight. He then checked into a hotel. The locomotive detached a half- mile outside the town, and the rest of the cars carrying the crude kept moving.”

But I have to work with what I have got. 

If this were an act of sabotage, the reported timeline suggest a window of opportunity of about 45 minutes.  Furthermore, it would have required either bleeding the 73 cars, or bottling the air.  Either would have required some time.  Maybe some of our railroaders could chime in on what it would take to bottle the air, and whether it would hold for the 7 mile runaway. 

[BroadwayLion]

zugmann

Zug thinks Lion better go back to math class.

I will have you know that the LION got a 17 on his algebra final!

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

The following link says that the engines were cut off of the train, and the entire consist of 73 tank cars ran away without the engines.  That would mean that the train had already passed through the town where the derailment would occur.  Then when it tied up at the next town, the cars were cut off and rolled backward for about 7 miles to the point where they derailed. 

 

http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-MPJBSR1A74E901-03MQFF2NUP9KE6TJ1V0VAC8M8B

This is like the 6th different scenario that I've heard about the wreck.  So, yeah, I think I will wait until something official before reading all these links.

What a joke these "reporters" are anymore.

[Anonymous]

The following link says that the engines were cut off of the train, and the entire consist of 73 tank cars ran away without the engines.  That would mean that the train had already passed through the town where the derailment would occur.  Then when it tied up at the next town, the cars were cut off and rolled backward for about 7 miles to the point where they derailed. 

 

http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-MPJBSR1A74E901-03MQFF2NUP9KE6TJ1V0VAC8M8B

[zugmann]

BroadwayLion

Photog566

I lean to the other two, mainly because I like to think, that 99% of the train crews on this continent are competent enough to take proper safety precautions with the train that is their responsibility. 

Yeah, Right.

ROAR

1 incident > than 1%? 

Zug thinks Lion better go back to math class.

PS. excuse me, the LION

[BroadwayLion]

Photog566

I lean to the other two, mainly because I like to think, that 99% of the train crews on this continent are competent enough to take proper safety precautions with the train that is their responsibility. 

Yeah, Right.

ROAR