Murphy SidingWithout walkways, how did the bears and wolves get out on the bridge, and under the train?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Rather than crawl the train, if I were the freight engineer or conductor, I would tell whatever boss suggested that idea, that he can jolly well call in a heliocopter or float a barge with a cherry picker, and I am confident that the union or if necesary any court of law would back me up. Unless of course the railroad could proove I was guilty of bad train handling that caused the broken nuckle.
The railroad needs those walkways as much as the train crew.
Murphy Siding Without walkways, how did the bears and wolves get out on the bridge, and under the train?
Without walkways, how did the bears and wolves get out on the bridge, and under the train?
Must have been smarter than the average bear?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Bucyrus zugmann Bucyrus I think the original assumption was that the break in two left both head end and hind end cars on the bridge. So how do you get to the anglecock of the head end cars?When stuff like that happens, the people that make the big bucks get to make the decisions. Okay, so you first call somebody who makes big bucks. Then he tells you to slide the head end cars off the trestle if there are not more than twenty of them. If there are more than twenty cars on the trestle, Mr. Big Bucks tells you to crawl under them, and under their forty-plus trucks. And keep an eye out for bears and wolves. I think I would be tempted to try the old coat hanger trick.
zugmann Bucyrus I think the original assumption was that the break in two left both head end and hind end cars on the bridge. So how do you get to the anglecock of the head end cars?When stuff like that happens, the people that make the big bucks get to make the decisions.
Bucyrus I think the original assumption was that the break in two left both head end and hind end cars on the bridge. So how do you get to the anglecock of the head end cars?
I think the original assumption was that the break in two left both head end and hind end cars on the bridge. So how do you get to the anglecock of the head end cars?
Okay, so you first call somebody who makes big bucks. Then he tells you to slide the head end cars off the trestle if there are not more than twenty of them. If there are more than twenty cars on the trestle, Mr. Big Bucks tells you to crawl under them, and under their forty-plus trucks. And keep an eye out for bears and wolves. I think I would be tempted to try the old coat hanger trick.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Well, what was done in Iowa should be done Nation-wide. Simply bring the matter to the FRA's attention may be enough, since they are empowered to issue any regulations required to insure safety, and this matter is pretty obvious. Let's get the ruling BEFORE there is proof that it is needed!
Some time in the recent past (I couldn't say when, time seems to slip by faster than I realize) the unions pushed for a bill in Iowa that requires walkways on bridges. Any bridge that doesn't already have one must have one installed when it comes up for normal repairs/deck replacement. I believe it was enacted and I've seen walkways added to bridges that didn't originally have them.
Jeff
I think this is a matter thatt the unions should take up first with the management of the big seven, and then if neccesary with the FRA. When caboosses were eliminated and crew sizes reduced, management should have insured that all main lines were walkable, so walking inspection would always be possible without danger to crew members. The is means that within one year, any bridge longer than 100 feet that has seen a train longer than 20 cars at least five times in the past year should have a well-maintained walkway. And within five years any cut or fill with a depth greater than five feed that has seen a train longer than 20 cars at least five times in the past year should have a place to walk beside the track.
We've certainly had some interesting answers. And it sounds like the solution at hand is workable, so long as 20 or fewer cars are trailing.
Looking at applications such as this however, it's not inconceivable that more than 20 cars could be involved.
If you look at some of the lengthy approach trestles on those old bridges over the Ohio River, some of them appear as though the walkways were added as an afterthought.
Bucyrus If a standing car has its brakes applied hard enough to slide the wheels, are you saying that the sliding resistance will be the same no matter whether the car is loaded or empty?
If a standing car has its brakes applied hard enough to slide the wheels, are you saying that the sliding resistance will be the same no matter whether the car is loaded or empty?
Loads normally don't slide, even with an emergency application. Empties on the other hand....
Actually, sliding 'em is looking better and better from here. If you know that you have fewer than the 20 cars, go for it. Keep in mind that only one car will be dragged for 20 car-lengths, because anyone with half a brain would be standing there bleeding the cars off as they came within reach, both to save the wheels and to make the pull easier. One other car would be dragged for 19 carlengths, the next one for 18, and so on.Twenty carlengths....2000 feet max, if the cars were multilevels. I've seen wheels that have been slid for longer than that, and, though you'll hear the flat spots you won't be rendering the car immovable.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
oltmannd Unless the bridge is on a grade, load or empty doesn't matter. Braking force would be the same. Figure about 20%-25% of the light weight of the car. Figure empty cars weigh about 25 tons and a knuckle is good for 250,000#. Roughly 20 cars.
Unless the bridge is on a grade, load or empty doesn't matter. Braking force would be the same. Figure about 20%-25% of the light weight of the car. Figure empty cars weigh about 25 tons and a knuckle is good for 250,000#. Roughly 20 cars.
zugmann Nah.. they send the managers to crawl under the cars with the bears. (easier to replace)
Nah.. they send the managers to crawl under the cars with the bears. (easier to replace)
^^ Laughing...THAT was funny
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
What if there was a black bear chasing you ? I've had several run ins with local wildlife along stopped trains. For whatever reason the moose always need to be on the other side of the track, the bear are looking for spillage from cars, porcupines and skunks are always about , coyotes are sniffing around. I hate walking a train in the dark. I've had blackbear appear from beneath a train, moose follow me along side.. to be certain I try very hard not to break my own train.
Most of the time problems I have are limited to hose separations especially in the winter time, the hoses drag on the snow and sometime come apart. Sometimes when part of the train is on a bridge. Most of the time it happens when I am changing the configuration of the train from stretched to bunched, topping a hill and using the dynamic brake.
My winter "kit" contains snowshoes , a suggestion from veteran railroaders, after the first time walking a train in 12-15 feet of snow I agreed that snowshoes were a good idea. I've never had a train stranded on a bridge without a walkway, I have had to walk down an abutment, cross a street, climb up the other side in order to walk the rest of the train luckily the hose wasn't parted on the bridge. Once I had a train with a bunch of empty center beams , I found it easier to walk on the cars than walk through the snowbanks
I have heard stories of crew men crawling under the train on a bridge to get to the defect but I've never been in that situation.
Randy
And what if there was a meteor flying towards earth? What if a volcano was about to erupt? What if gravity suddenly stopped working? What if there was an angry sheep in the way?
Probably a secret high-tech how to manual somewhere behind glass that can be used. When stuff like that happens, the people that make the big bucks get to make the decisions.
Bucyrus Well yes, you can bleed the cars as they come off the bridge, and each one you bleed will reduce the load. But to begin the pull, all of the cars will have the brakes set. How many loads can you drag with fully applied brakes? Give me a number.
Well yes, you can bleed the cars as they come off the bridge, and each one you bleed will reduce the load. But to begin the pull, all of the cars will have the brakes set. How many loads can you drag with fully applied brakes? Give me a number.
There is no "number". It depends on power, grade, and tonnage.
Assuming you meant either the locomotive was stopped on the bridge, or the front portion of the train was on the bridge, either way completely crossing the bridge on foot is not possible.
First thing you do is contact the dispatcher and advise them of the situation.
If the front of the train was already over the bridge, and you were near a town, I would call a cab, either a carrier owned operated one, of have the dispatcher call on and have it meet me at the nearest point, road crossing of side street.
If your close to a town, the odds a real good there is a roadway bridge near by, have the cab drive you back to the point nearest the break…find the break and determine which knuckle broke, and if that is the only problem, close the anglecock, have the engineer toss off the appropriate knuckle and knuckle pin, marking them with a lit fussee if it near dark.
Once the air pumped up, drag yourself up to the knuckle, put it on the rear cross over platform, shove back to the break, replace the broken knuckle, couple up, and air up the rear of the train.
If I could see the entire length of the rear part, I would look to see if there was anything laying on its side, or listing and any angle indicating it was derailed.
If nothing looks out of the ordinary, I would have my engineer pull on the train, about a car length or two while I observed the rear portion, if it still looked good, I would ask the dispatcher if the train could shove back and pick me up, (you can do this in CTC under certain conditions.)
If I couldn’t shove back, I would grab on and have the engineer drag me across the bridge, drop off on the other side, drag the rear up to me, do a brake test, then walk the remaining part of the train.
23 17 46 11
CShaveRRI think you're going to have to bite the bullet and slide the wheels on as many cars as can't be reached to turn an anglecock, perhaps stationing a person at the accessible point to bleed the remainder as they are pulled off the bridge
If that is the plan, and accepting that a few flat wheels are inevitable, how far up the chain of command would one have to go for approval, just to shield oneself from fallout?
blue streak 1 Bucyrus I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle? Close the closest car anglecock to the bridge that can be reached. Operate brake bleed valve on first car on bridge if possible. Then attempt to drag remaining train and if cars move you can operate the brake bleed valve on each car as each car comes off the bridge. That releases each car's brakes in turn.
Bucyrus I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
Bucyrus [I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
[I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
Close the closest car anglecock to the bridge that can be reached. Operate brake bleed valve on first car on bridge if possible. Then attempt to drag remaining train and if cars move you can operate the brake bleed valve on each car as each car comes off the bridge. That releases each car's brakes in turn.
BucyrusI could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
A large part of the answer here depends on just how much of a blockage this problem is causing. If this is a busy single track line, the cost of the delays may be greater than the cost of replacing a few wheels, so all other things considered, dragging a few cars off the bridge may be the more economical solution.
And, as mentioned, full or empty is a consideration. Too, the nature of the cargo can be a factor. Not sure how far I want to drag several cars of Methyl Ethyl Awful...
This is why you have to keep your options open - no two situations are going to be alike, and no two solutions are going to be the same.
Take away the bridge issue and this is essentially an everyday occurance. I didn't come up with the solution I mentioned - I read it here, some time back.
Bucyrus So how do you fix that problem? What do you do about closing the anglecock if it is out on a long trestle with no catwalk? What does the company say you should do?
So how do you fix that problem? What do you do about closing the anglecock if it is out on a long trestle with no catwalk? What does the company say you should do?
CShaveRRI think Larry (Tree) has the best response so far. There's definitely a problem if too many cars are left on the bridge.
This is one thing that the Powers That Be didn't think about when they removed walkways from the car roofs...of course, back when that was done, a greater percentage of the cars were cars with roofwalks. I think Larry (Tree) has the best response so far. There's definitely a problem if too many cars are left on the bridge.One also has to know which type of knuckle is called for. You could leave an E knuckle at the point where it will be installed or carried, and most of the time you're okay. But if it's an F knuckle that's needed, that will be an extra trip.
I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and slide the wheels on as many cars as can't be reached to turn an anglecock, perhaps stationing a person at the accessible point to bleed the remainder as they are pulled off the bridge.
Bucyrus If the head end is off the bridge, a conductor could walk back, close its anglecock, pull ahead, pick up a replacement knuckle dropped off the engine, shove back, ride the point back to the hind end cars on the bridge, get down onto the ties between the cars, replace the knuckle, shove back and make the joint, open the anglecock on the head end cars, pump up the air, pull ahead in order to dismount the cars, shove back to pick up the conductor, and then leave. But what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway?
If the head end is off the bridge, a conductor could walk back, close its anglecock, pull ahead, pick up a replacement knuckle dropped off the engine, shove back, ride the point back to the hind end cars on the bridge, get down onto the ties between the cars, replace the knuckle, shove back and make the joint, open the anglecock on the head end cars, pump up the air, pull ahead in order to dismount the cars, shove back to pick up the conductor, and then leave.
But what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway?
The only problem with that solution is the 2nd to last step... that "shove back to pick up the conductor"... no can do! You need someone at the rear to protect the back movement. They could pull forward to let the conductor off on land, but he would have to walk to the head end.
And yes, there is still the question of how you get to the angle cock on either side of the break if they are both on a narrow bridge. If you cannot use the train as the walkway, then it will have to be pulled off with the brakes applied. Maybe they could close the angle cock of the last car accessible on the near end of the bridge to pump up the line and release the brakes of the majority of the train and only drag the few cars still on the bridge with brakes applied, but dragging the cars with brakes applied is not good, especially if they are fully loaded.
I have seen switching operations where a car or two have the brakes manually applied before being shoved to the desired spot and the wheels will alternately slide and roll, so I know it is done, with a (probably) "Light" application of the brakes, but I don't know how well it could be done with a full "emergency" application.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
tree68 BucyrusBut what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway? Even if the head end and the car with the broken knuckle are on dry land, if there is an impassable obstacle in the middle (ie, a bridge with no walkway), there's gonna be a problem.
BucyrusBut what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway?
But in that case, the conductor can ride the point of the head end cars right out onto the bridge and stop just short of the hind end cars. Then he can dismount, and replace the knuckle while staying between the rails.
The only problem I see is getting to the anglecock if the head end cars are still on the bridge, and the bridge has no catwalk. That anglecock has to be closed before the cars are pulled ahead. I can see that the conductor might need help from other personnel, but how are they going to get to the anglecock?
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