In the case where your train has pulled apart, and you have stopped in emergency with the front end of your train stopped sitting on a beam bridge (where the widest part of the bridge are the ties sitting on it), how do you walk the train to get back to the point of separation?
example bridge
That would be a trick...eeks.
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I never thought that there was a convenient spot for knuckles to break.
Most likely, an engine would have to be sent from the trailing end direction of the line to pull the trailing part of the train backward to the ground approach to the bridge. That way, the crew could walk to the trouble car and replace everything.
overallan engine would have to be sent from the trailing end direction of the line to pull the trailing part of the train backward to the ground approach to the bridge
Well, I'm pretty ignorant about these things, so maybe this will sound really dumb, but are you saying that the engine dispatched from the rear would hook up with the back end of the broken train, and pull it off the bridge with the brakes of all the cars still applied?
CSSHEGEWISCH I never thought that there was a convenient spot for knuckles to break.
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Convicted OneIn the case where your train has pulled apart, and you have stopped in emergency with the front end of your train stopped sitting on a beam bridge (where the widest part of the bridge are the ties sitting on it), how do you walk the train to get back to the point of separation?
Maybe you cannot see it, because it is on the other side of the bridge, but there *is* a walkway there. The LION would have no trouble walking on that cat walk, but I do not know if I would want to do it, AND carry a 100# knuckle as well.
Well be that as it may, once the air bleeds off of those cars the brakes will begin to release, so you could just put your engine in reverse and then shove everything off of the bridge assuming that there are no other issues such as a derailment or a broken track. You probably want to want to check those sorts of things out before you begin your big shove.
Or maybe the LION has it all wrong, (him would just use the 0-5-0 switcher) and others will be happy to correct him. but in any event, I am *sure* that their is a walkway (hopefully with a railing) on the other side of that bridge.
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I'm not so sure about the presence of a walkway. Seems like I recall the old PRR bridge in Montecello IN that had no walkway
picture
Overhead
I think the old C&O bridge over the Wabash in Peru was like that as well.
Convicted,
You would not try to pull the cars with brakes applied. That would put flat spots on all the wheels.. You would use the engine from the rear to pump the brakes up and release them and then start pulling away. Anyway, that's what I would do if I were confronted by the situation you describe. As mentioned above, trying to negotiate that high bridge while carrying a knuckle,which is quite heavy, would be very unsafe to my mind. I would not ask a man that worked for me to do that.
George
overallYou would not try to pull the cars with brakes applied. That would put flat spots on all the wheels.. You would use the engine from the rear to pump the brakes up and release them and then start pulling
I wasn't aware you could pump up a train after the brake line had been pulled apart.
Some people are overthinking things. If the front end is on a bridge, then most likely the rear end (with the open air line) is not on a bridge. So you just need to get someone out there to close the open anglecock so you could pull the train off the bridge. No engine needed, really. Besides, you couldn't get an engine to the front section, since the rear section would be in the way. And you couldn't pull the rear section away until you closed the anglecock on the front of that section. Bottom line, you'd need to get somebody other than a train crew member (stuck on the bridge) back there to handle the anglecock issue.
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zugmannBottom line, you'd need to get somebody other than a train crew member (stuck on the bridge) back there to handle the anglecock issue.
Thanks!! So then something like this would merit a 'call for assistance" and you wouldn't suffer the wrath of some higher up wondering why your train is not self sufficient?
zugmann Some people are overthinking things. If the front end is on a bridge, then most likely the rear end (with the open air line) is not on a bridge. So you just need to get someone out there to close the open anglecock so you could pull the train off the bridge. No engine needed, really. Besides, you couldn't get an engine to the front section, since the rear section would be in the way. And you couldn't pull the rear section away until you closed the anglecock on the front of that section. Bottom line, you'd need to get somebody other than a train crew member (stuck on the bridge) back there to handle the anglecock issue. Unless you just drug 'em screaming if you had the horsepower. And didn't mind a few flatspots...
Unless you just drug 'em screaming if you had the horsepower. And didn't mind a few flatspots...
It would seem that each situation that involves an Emergency Shut Down would necessarily have its own set of peculiar circumstances to be dealt with. In such a case the experience level of the on-board crew would be the most telling factor for fixing the problem. That they would be able to relay to the information to someone who would be able to manage the situation at a higher level.
Such a tricky situation happened in 2010 to an NS crew on the line between Birmingham and Mobile Al. January of 201 a southbound train with three locomotives on the head-end approached a burning trestle.and made a BRAKE APPLICATION.. The 3 locomotives came to a stop on the burning trestle. The engineer(?) called the Dispatch(?) to advise them of their problem.
The during an unspecified time period the Fire spread to the on-board diesel fuel. One crewman jumped into the water below and was very seriously injured. The other crew member was apparently caught by the fire and deceased. It reportedly took 'an hour' to get help to the train in a remote location(?). [ The line, in part, is apparently parallel to US Hwy 43 in Alabama.]
a story is linked @ http://blog.al.com/live/2010/01/railroad_crewmen_burned_when_t.html
That said, the issue in these cases seems to be how the crew reacts to the specifics of the 'emergency' . ThAT IS WHERE THEIR RrAILROAD EXPERIENCES AND TRAINING WOULD COME INTO PLAY.
The broken knuckle would be handled by the crew or possibly by another employee(s) ? In the case where the train is stopped by a burning bridge and the train actually slide out onto the bridge. Based on that particular circumstance would it not be the decision of the engineer( after consulting wit his D.S) to either back up or seperate the engines and train and race forward? Any ideas on a better outcome for the train and crew?
If the head end is off the bridge, a conductor could walk back, close its anglecock, pull ahead, pick up a replacement knuckle dropped off the engine, shove back, ride the point back to the hind end cars on the bridge, get down onto the ties between the cars, replace the knuckle, shove back and make the joint, open the anglecock on the head end cars, pump up the air, pull ahead in order to dismount the cars, shove back to pick up the conductor, and then leave.
But what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway?
BucyrusBut what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway?
The only way a crew member is going to get to the trouble spot in that case is if there is a way to move over the cars (ie, empty flats), unless they're ambitious enough to crawl under the cars (which would be a really bad idea, amongst other reasons).
Odds are someone is going to have to go in by rail (hi-railer) or walk from the nearest access point, if there is one.
As has been discussed here before, if the anglecock is accessible, odds are the crew will dump a knuckle at (or near) the point at which they stopped, walk back and close the anglecock, then ride the last car up to the point at which the knuckle was dropped.
If that's the car with the broken knuckle, they'll fix it there, then go back for the rest of the train.
Otherwise, they'll load the knuckle on the last car, then back down to the standing remnant and fix that car. Couple up, air and test, get the conductor back on the locomotive and head on down the road.
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FWIW, that's kind of the picture I had in my head initially. The locomotives would be well past the bridge, but both broken ends of the train would be on the bridge span. Some of those spans are rather long, such as the old Tulip trestle.
tree68 BucyrusBut what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway? Even if the head end and the car with the broken knuckle are on dry land, if there is an impassable obstacle in the middle (ie, a bridge with no walkway), there's gonna be a problem.
But in that case, the conductor can ride the point of the head end cars right out onto the bridge and stop just short of the hind end cars. Then he can dismount, and replace the knuckle while staying between the rails.
The only problem I see is getting to the anglecock if the head end cars are still on the bridge, and the bridge has no catwalk. That anglecock has to be closed before the cars are pulled ahead. I can see that the conductor might need help from other personnel, but how are they going to get to the anglecock?
Bucyrus If the head end is off the bridge, a conductor could walk back, close its anglecock, pull ahead, pick up a replacement knuckle dropped off the engine, shove back, ride the point back to the hind end cars on the bridge, get down onto the ties between the cars, replace the knuckle, shove back and make the joint, open the anglecock on the head end cars, pump up the air, pull ahead in order to dismount the cars, shove back to pick up the conductor, and then leave. But what if the head end cars are still on the bridge? How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway?
The only problem with that solution is the 2nd to last step... that "shove back to pick up the conductor"... no can do! You need someone at the rear to protect the back movement. They could pull forward to let the conductor off on land, but he would have to walk to the head end.
And yes, there is still the question of how you get to the angle cock on either side of the break if they are both on a narrow bridge. If you cannot use the train as the walkway, then it will have to be pulled off with the brakes applied. Maybe they could close the angle cock of the last car accessible on the near end of the bridge to pump up the line and release the brakes of the majority of the train and only drag the few cars still on the bridge with brakes applied, but dragging the cars with brakes applied is not good, especially if they are fully loaded.
I have seen switching operations where a car or two have the brakes manually applied before being shoved to the desired spot and the wheels will alternately slide and roll, so I know it is done, with a (probably) "Light" application of the brakes, but I don't know how well it could be done with a full "emergency" application.
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This is one thing that the Powers That Be didn't think about when they removed walkways from the car roofs...of course, back when that was done, a greater percentage of the cars were cars with roofwalks. I think Larry (Tree) has the best response so far. There's definitely a problem if too many cars are left on the bridge.One also has to know which type of knuckle is called for. You could leave an E knuckle at the point where it will be installed or carried, and most of the time you're okay. But if it's an F knuckle that's needed, that will be an extra trip.
I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and slide the wheels on as many cars as can't be reached to turn an anglecock, perhaps stationing a person at the accessible point to bleed the remainder as they are pulled off the bridge.
Carl
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CShaveRRI think Larry (Tree) has the best response so far. There's definitely a problem if too many cars are left on the bridge.
So how do you fix that problem? What do you do about closing the anglecock if it is out on a long trestle with no catwalk? What does the company say you should do?
I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
Bucyrus So how do you fix that problem? What do you do about closing the anglecock if it is out on a long trestle with no catwalk? What does the company say you should do?
BucyrusI could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
A large part of the answer here depends on just how much of a blockage this problem is causing. If this is a busy single track line, the cost of the delays may be greater than the cost of replacing a few wheels, so all other things considered, dragging a few cars off the bridge may be the more economical solution.
And, as mentioned, full or empty is a consideration. Too, the nature of the cargo can be a factor. Not sure how far I want to drag several cars of Methyl Ethyl Awful...
This is why you have to keep your options open - no two situations are going to be alike, and no two solutions are going to be the same.
Take away the bridge issue and this is essentially an everyday occurance. I didn't come up with the solution I mentioned - I read it here, some time back.
Bucyrus [I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
[I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
Close the closest car anglecock to the bridge that can be reached. Operate brake bleed valve on first car on bridge if possible. Then attempt to drag remaining train and if cars move you can operate the brake bleed valve on each car as each car comes off the bridge. That releases each car's brakes in turn.
blue streak 1 Bucyrus I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle? Close the closest car anglecock to the bridge that can be reached. Operate brake bleed valve on first car on bridge if possible. Then attempt to drag remaining train and if cars move you can operate the brake bleed valve on each car as each car comes off the bridge. That releases each car's brakes in turn.
Bucyrus I could see the possibility of dragging some cars off the trestle with the brakes on, but that seems pretty iffy. Would a railroad company permit that solution to the problem? How many loads could you drag before breaking another knuckle?
Well yes, you can bleed the cars as they come off the bridge, and each one you bleed will reduce the load. But to begin the pull, all of the cars will have the brakes set. How many loads can you drag with fully applied brakes? Give me a number.
CShaveRRI think you're going to have to bite the bullet and slide the wheels on as many cars as can't be reached to turn an anglecock, perhaps stationing a person at the accessible point to bleed the remainder as they are pulled off the bridge
If that is the plan, and accepting that a few flat wheels are inevitable, how far up the chain of command would one have to go for approval, just to shield oneself from fallout?
Assuming you meant either the locomotive was stopped on the bridge, or the front portion of the train was on the bridge, either way completely crossing the bridge on foot is not possible.
First thing you do is contact the dispatcher and advise them of the situation.
If the front of the train was already over the bridge, and you were near a town, I would call a cab, either a carrier owned operated one, of have the dispatcher call on and have it meet me at the nearest point, road crossing of side street.
If your close to a town, the odds a real good there is a roadway bridge near by, have the cab drive you back to the point nearest the break…find the break and determine which knuckle broke, and if that is the only problem, close the anglecock, have the engineer toss off the appropriate knuckle and knuckle pin, marking them with a lit fussee if it near dark.
Once the air pumped up, drag yourself up to the knuckle, put it on the rear cross over platform, shove back to the break, replace the broken knuckle, couple up, and air up the rear of the train.
If I could see the entire length of the rear part, I would look to see if there was anything laying on its side, or listing and any angle indicating it was derailed.
If nothing looks out of the ordinary, I would have my engineer pull on the train, about a car length or two while I observed the rear portion, if it still looked good, I would ask the dispatcher if the train could shove back and pick me up, (you can do this in CTC under certain conditions.)
If I couldn’t shove back, I would grab on and have the engineer drag me across the bridge, drop off on the other side, drag the rear up to me, do a brake test, then walk the remaining part of the train.
23 17 46 11
I think the original assumption was that the break in two left both head end and hind end cars on the bridge. So how do you get to the anglecock of the head end cars?
Bucyrus Well yes, you can bleed the cars as they come off the bridge, and each one you bleed will reduce the load. But to begin the pull, all of the cars will have the brakes set. How many loads can you drag with fully applied brakes? Give me a number.
There is no "number". It depends on power, grade, and tonnage.
Bucyrus I think the original assumption was that the break in two left both head end and hind end cars on the bridge. So how do you get to the anglecock of the head end cars?
And what if there was a meteor flying towards earth? What if a volcano was about to erupt? What if gravity suddenly stopped working? What if there was an angry sheep in the way?
Probably a secret high-tech how to manual somewhere behind glass that can be used. When stuff like that happens, the people that make the big bucks get to make the decisions.
What if there was a black bear chasing you ? I've had several run ins with local wildlife along stopped trains. For whatever reason the moose always need to be on the other side of the track, the bear are looking for spillage from cars, porcupines and skunks are always about , coyotes are sniffing around. I hate walking a train in the dark. I've had blackbear appear from beneath a train, moose follow me along side.. to be certain I try very hard not to break my own train.
Most of the time problems I have are limited to hose separations especially in the winter time, the hoses drag on the snow and sometime come apart. Sometimes when part of the train is on a bridge. Most of the time it happens when I am changing the configuration of the train from stretched to bunched, topping a hill and using the dynamic brake.
My winter "kit" contains snowshoes , a suggestion from veteran railroaders, after the first time walking a train in 12-15 feet of snow I agreed that snowshoes were a good idea. I've never had a train stranded on a bridge without a walkway, I have had to walk down an abutment, cross a street, climb up the other side in order to walk the rest of the train luckily the hose wasn't parted on the bridge. Once I had a train with a bunch of empty center beams , I found it easier to walk on the cars than walk through the snowbanks
I have heard stories of crew men crawling under the train on a bridge to get to the defect but I've never been in that situation.
Randy
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