Broken knuckles in inconvenient places

[Convicted One]

Bucyrus

But what if the head end cars are still on the bridge?  How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway? 

FWIW, that's kind of the picture I had in my head initially.  The locomotives would be well past the bridge, but both broken ends of the train would be on the bridge span.  Some of those spans are rather long, such as the old Tulip trestle.

[tree68]

Bucyrus

But what if the head end cars are still on the bridge?  How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway? 

Even if the head end and the car with the broken knuckle are on dry land, if there is an impassable obstacle in the middle (ie, a bridge with no walkway), there's gonna be a problem.

The only way a crew member is going to get to the trouble spot in that case is if there is a way to move over the cars (ie, empty flats), unless they're ambitious enough to crawl under the cars (which would be a really bad idea, amongst other reasons).

Odds are someone is going to have to go in by rail (hi-railer) or walk from the nearest access point, if there is one.

As has been discussed here before, if the anglecock is accessible, odds are the crew will dump a knuckle at (or near) the point at which they stopped, walk back and close the anglecock, then ride the last car up to the point at which the knuckle was dropped.

If that's the car with the broken knuckle, they'll fix it there, then go back for the rest of the train.

Otherwise, they'll load the knuckle on the last car, then back down to the standing remnant and fix that car.  Couple up, air and test, get the conductor back on the locomotive and head on down the road.

[Anonymous]

If the head end is off the bridge, a conductor could walk back, close its anglecock, pull ahead, pick up a replacement knuckle dropped off the engine, shove back, ride the point back to the hind end cars on the bridge, get down onto the ties between the cars, replace the knuckle, shove back and make the joint, open the anglecock on the head end cars, pump up the air, pull ahead in order to dismount the cars, shove back to pick up the conductor, and then leave.  

But what if the head end cars are still on the bridge?  How does anyone get to the anglecock on a car on the bridge if the bridge has no walkway? 

[samfp1943]

zugmann

Some people are overthinking things.  If the front end is on a bridge, then most likely the rear end (with the open air line) is not on a bridge.  So you just need to get someone out there to close the open anglecock so you could pull the train off the bridge.  No engine needed, really.  Besides, you couldn't get an engine to the front section, since the rear section would be in the way.  And you couldn't pull the rear section away until you closed the anglecock on the front of that section.  Bottom line, you'd need to get somebody other than a train crew member (stuck on the bridge) back there to handle the anglecock issue.

Unless you just drug 'em screaming if you had the horsepower.  And didn't mind a few flatspots...

        It would seem that each situation that involves an Emergency Shut Down would necessarily have its own set of peculiar circumstances to be dealt with.   In such a case the experience level of the on-board crew would be the most telling factor for fixing the problem.  That they would be able to relay to the information to someone who would be able to manage the situation at a higher level. 

        Such a tricky situation happened in 2010 to an NS crew on the line between Birmingham and Mobile Al.   January of 201 a southbound train with three locomotives on the head-end approached a burning trestle.and made a BRAKE APPLICATION.. The 3 locomotives came to a stop on the burning trestle.  The engineer(?) called the Dispatch(?) to advise them of their problem. 

       The during an unspecified time period the Fire spread to the on-board diesel fuel.  One crewman jumped into the water below and was very seriously injured. The other crew member was apparently caught by the fire and deceased.   It reportedly took 'an hour' to get help to the train in a remote location(?). [ The line, in part, is apparently parallel to US Hwy 43 in Alabama.]

       a story is linked @ http://blog.al.com/live/2010/01/railroad_crewmen_burned_when_t.html

    That said, the issue in these cases seems to be how the crew reacts to the specifics of the 'emergency' . ThAT IS WHERE THEIR RrAILROAD EXPERIENCES AND TRAINING WOULD COME INTO PLAY.

     The broken knuckle would be handled by the crew or possibly by another employee(s) ?  In the case where the train is stopped by a burning bridge and the train actually slide out onto the bridge. Based on that particular circumstance would it not be the decision of the engineer( after consulting wit his D.S) to either  back up or  seperate the engines and train and race forward?  Any ideas on a better outcome for the train and crew?

[Convicted One]

zugmann

Bottom line, you'd need to get somebody other than a train crew member (stuck on the bridge) back there to handle the anglecock issue.

Thanks!!  So then something like this would merit a 'call for assistance" and you wouldn't suffer the wrath of some higher up wondering why your train is not self sufficient?

[zugmann]

Some people are overthinking things.  If the front end is on a bridge, then most likely the rear end (with the open air line) is not on a bridge.  So you just need to get someone out there to close the open anglecock so you could pull the train off the bridge.  No engine needed, really.  Besides, you couldn't get an engine to the front section, since the rear section would be in the way.  And you couldn't pull the rear section away until you closed the anglecock on the front of that section.  Bottom line, you'd need to get somebody other than a train crew member (stuck on the bridge) back there to handle the anglecock issue.

[Convicted One]

overall

You would not try to pull the cars with brakes applied. That would put flat spots on all the wheels.. You would use the engine from the rear to pump the brakes up and release them and then start pulling

I wasn't aware you could pump up a train after the brake line had been pulled apart.

[overall]

Convicted,

You would not try to pull the cars with brakes applied. That would put flat spots on all the wheels.. You would use the engine from the rear to pump the brakes up and release them and then start pulling away. Anyway, that's what I would do if I were confronted by the situation you describe. As mentioned above, trying to negotiate that high bridge while carrying a knuckle,which is quite heavy, would be very unsafe to my mind. I would not ask a man that worked for me to do that.

George

[Convicted One]

I'm not so sure about the presence of a walkway. Seems like I recall the old PRR bridge in Montecello IN that had no walkway

picture

Overhead

I think the old C&O bridge over the Wabash in Peru was like that as well.

[BroadwayLion]

Convicted One

In the case where your train has pulled apart, and you have stopped in emergency  with the  front end of your  train stopped sitting on a beam bridge (where the widest part of the bridge are the ties sitting on it), how do you walk the train to get back to the point of separation?

Maybe you cannot see it, because it is on the other side of the bridge, but there *is* a walkway there. The LION would have no trouble walking on that cat walk, but I do not know if I would want to do it, AND carry a 100# knuckle as well.

Well be that as it may, once the air bleeds off of those cars the brakes will begin to release, so you could just put your engine in reverse and then shove everything off of the bridge assuming that there are no other issues such as a derailment or a broken track. You probably want to want to check those sorts of things out before you begin your big shove.

Or maybe the LION has it all wrong, (him would just use the 0-5-0 switcher) and others will be happy to correct him. but in any event, I am *sure* that their is a walkway (hopefully with a railing) on the other side of that bridge.

ROAR

[Convicted One]

CSSHEGEWISCH

I never thought that there was a convenient spot for knuckles to break.

Beside a Pizza  Hut!

[Convicted One]

overall

an engine would have to be sent from the trailing end direction of the line to pull the trailing part of the train backward to the ground approach to the bridge

Well, I'm pretty ignorant about these things, so maybe this will sound really dumb,  but are you saying that the engine dispatched from the rear would hook up with the back end of the broken train, and pull it off the bridge with the brakes of all the cars still applied?

[overall]

Most likely, an engine would have to be sent from the trailing end direction of the line to pull the trailing part of the train backward to the ground approach to the bridge. That way, the crew could walk to the trouble car and replace everything.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I never thought that there was a convenient spot for knuckles to break.

[blownout cylinder]

 

That would be a trick...eeks.

[Convicted One]

In the case where your train has pulled apart, and you have stopped in emergency  with the  front end of your  train stopped sitting on a beam bridge (where the widest part of the bridge are the ties sitting on it), how do you walk the train to get back to the point of separation?

example bridge