Great Lakes and Atlantic-Dream come true?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I don't know. I think the Providence and Worchester or one of the 3 Guilford System railroads bought. Where does the line go?

Andrew-

Think research. The P&W is an independent publicly traded company. It is not now and never has been owned by Guilford.

LC

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I don't know. I think the Providence and Worchester or one of the 3 Guilford System railroads bought. Where does the line go?

Andrew-

Think research. The P&W is an independent publicly traded company. It is not now and never has been owned by Guilford.

LC

I know that LC. How in the blue heck did you manage to think that I said that the Providence and Worchester was part of the Guilford Systems?

[Junctionfan]

....Anyways back to my railroad.

The company needs to start expanding and we need to go to New York. I propose a line that goes from Syracuse to Binghamton (might buy the existing NYSW line if available) and from Binghamton, travel along the Deleware River to New York (I think it will be parallel to NS). This will greatly expand our intermodal potential as well as general merchandise opportunities now to both New York, Binghamton and the other cities with rail demand along the way.

[Junctionfan]

I think the railroad is going to purchase a four unit double deck DMU from Colarado Railcar for $13.8 million US for the tourists. It is quite fuel efficient and it can fit a maximum of 776 passengers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

....Anyways back to my railroad.

The company needs to start expanding and we need to go to New York. I propose a line that goes from Syracuse to Binghamton (might buy the existing NYSW line if available) and from Binghamton, travel along the Deleware River to New York (I think it will be parallel to NS). This will greatly expand our intermodal potential as well as general merchandise opportunities now to both New York, Binghamton and the other cities with rail demand along the way.

Andrew-

First make a service application (Mr. Chaaalie apply blake prease...), NYS&W's line from Syracuse to Binghamton is owned by various subdivisions of New York State. NYS&W is largely controlled by NS and CSX who paid a punishing amount of money to buy that influence. They won't sell to an outsider. Even if they did, the state would have to approve it.

Second, the NYS&W does not have a line east of Binghamton. That is the NS Southern Tier Line that NYS&W has trackage rights only over it. The NS is very touchy about the whole thing and then there are the issues with MN and NJT that operate commuter service on the line east of Port Jervis, NY.

LC

[Junctionfan]

Thankyou for the advice. In that case I will have to build the line from scatch but that will happen in 3 years because it would be out of my budget and would negatively effect my fiscal planning. Unless the shareholders give me permission to stray from the budget, I have to wait in 2007/2008.

[Overmod]

I, for one, would be infinitely fascinated to see how anyone gets down the "Deleware River" to New York from Binghamton.

I have to conclude that the New York City area is what you mean, because going 'from Binghamton to New York State' would be like going from Toronto south to Ontario in Canadian terms... rather difficult.

Delaware = Philadelphia
HUDSON = New York City

Delaware and Hudson = railroad intended in part to link the two

Suskie goes as close to NYC as you need; they also have a very interesting nearly-forgotten tunnel under the Palisades that AFAIK is still not used for anything (I last walked it in the late 1990s). You'll need to reconstruct some track between the Public Service plant on Overpeck Creek to get the line in service, but it's graded for double track over the meadows...

Very easy transfer to the West Shore line, too, if you are interested in terminal-end access over trackage rights.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

I, for one, would be infinitely fascinated to see how anyone gets down the "Deleware River" to New York from Binghamton.

I have to conclude that the New York City area is what you mean, because going 'from Binghamton to New York State' would be like going from Toronto south to Ontario in Canadian terms... rather difficult.

Delaware = Philadelphia
HUDSON = New York City

Delaware and Hudson = railroad intended in part to link the two

Suskie goes as close to NYC as you need; they also have a very interesting nearly-forgotten tunnel under the Palisades that AFAIK is still not used for anything (I last walked it in the late 1990s). You'll need to reconstruct some track between the Public Service plant on Overpeck Creek to get the line in service, but it's graded for double track over the meadows...

Very easy transfer to the West Shore line, too, if you are interested in terminal-end access over trackage rights.

OM-

You really need to look at a map. The Delaware River is reached from Binghamton by the Southern Tier Line by going over the mountain at Gulf Summit and follows the Delaware River east to Port Jervis. This is the route of the Erie Railroad main line and goes to New Jersey (mileposts are set to Jersey City) across the river (Hudson) from NYC. In the olden days ferries took passengers to NYC. No Philly involvement.

LC

[Junctionfan]

Are you talking about the D&H line that runs between Binghamton and Scanton? Is it owned by anybody? Where is Suskie and what route (including cities) would you recommend I go? Does the tunnel except doublestacks?

[Overmod]

Last I looked, it was a relatively long way from Port Jervis to New York, and the only available lines that link them are NJT. Not much likelihood of new freight on the ex-Erie mains...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Last I looked, it was a relatively long way from Port Jervis to New York, and the only available lines that link them are NJT. Not much likelihood of new freight on the ex-Erie mains...

OM-

You neglect to realize that NS has trackage rights (as did Conrail) over the Tier all the way down through Suffern on to NJT Mainline to the Bergen County Line at Ridgewood Jct to Croxton Yard. Ran many a train that way myself. The freight flows just fine.

Andrew-

"Suskie" is slang for NYS&W.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Are you talking about the D&H line that runs between Binghamton and Scanton? Is it owned by anybody? Where is Suskie and what route (including cities) would you recommend I go? Does the tunnel except doublestacks?

It is owned by CP Rail as is all that remains of the D&H.

LC

[Junctionfan]

What kind of room do I have for paralleling the NYS&W from Syracuse to Binghamton?

LC which way should I go from Binghamton in order to get towards New York area. Keeping in mind that I would like to have the option of easy access (includes the likely need to lay new track) to get to Trenton and Philadelphia?

[Junctionfan]

I would not like to have to go through the pains of trackage rights agreement or lack of. It would be cheaper in the long run if I just built a new route and not spend the money on court battles and spend money on my competition.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Are you talking about the D&H line that runs between Binghamton and Scanton? Is it owned by anybody? Where is Suskie and what route (including cities) would you recommend I go? Does the tunnel except doublestacks?

It is owned by CP Rail as is all that remains of the D&H.

LC

I thought so; that route is no good.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I would not like to have to go through the pains of trackage rights agreement or lack of. It would be cheaper in the long run if I just built a new route and not spend the money on court battles and spend money on my competition.

Andrew-

Not to defecate on your dynamo here, but I think you need to brush up on your beancounting here. Building a new mainline with signals will run at least $2Million a mile NOT including the cost of acquiring the ROW. That ROW will be expensive indeed in that area of the world. There are reasons that few new railroads are being built and ROW availability and cost is high on the list. Just to build from Binghamton to NJ would be a multi $Billion$ undertaking. I realize this is imaginary, but I'm hoping to pull this down to near reality. If not, you'll lose out on a great learning experience on how railroads work. Trackage rights are always cheaper than building new. Just think of how many large RRs will accept TRs on a competitors line so they can shut a parallel line and tear it up.

LC

[Junctionfan]

I don't think NS or CSX (my competition) would allow me trackage rights on their lines so I don't know how much choice I would have. You're right.....now that I have done some of the math. There would be double tracking, some tunneling, cuts, bridges and some fills. Thank God this would be a 2007/2008 project.

Is there anyway I could get some kind of law to secure trackage rights if I decided to go that way? Would NS be more interested if I payed for another track on their line to share from Binghampton to New York? Would it be easier for me to just say what the heck and just build from scatch?

[Junctionfan]

Hey LC

I could use you in my management team.

[Anonymous]

Andrew-

You are lucky that your project is imaginary and based upon models. The real thing is much more difficult. As to your route questions:

1. The NYS&W between Syracuse and Binghamton follows the west bank of the Tioughnioga River south of Cortland. On the east bank is I-81. I don't know that there is an easy way to parallel it for miles in either direction.

2. East of Binghamton. I think you need to think more about your traffic base before you worry so much about routes. Think of all the lines that competed for traffic between NYC and Buffalo in times past. Look at the routes of the NYC, Erie, DL&W, LV, CNJ, and PRR. Remember also that most traffic no longer is gatewayed through Buffalo unless it is heading into Canada. It goes to gateways in Chicago, St. Louis and even KC. Plan accordingly.

3. If you haven't already,get a copy of"The Railroad, What it is, What it does" and read it. You will learn a great deal about what goes into some of the choices you can make and what their consequences will be as RR Sr. management.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Thankyou for the advice. In that case I will have to build the line from scatch but that will happen in 3 years because it would be out of my budget and would negatively effect my fiscal planning. Unless the shareholders give me permission to stray from the budget, I have to wait in 2007/2008.

Andrew-

I'm not sure how you have a budget established this early. I would think you would need to perform due diligence concerning potential traffic, establish routes and interchanges and calculate a pro forma set of revenues and costs before you could begin to budget. That is the realistic way to plan. Oh, and remember, try to be realistic with rates.

LC

[Anonymous]

I might suggest hardly being a business man, but something that makes sense, and that is a survey of all depts, recources, and operating costs of the lines that you have acquiered before even thinking about future plans.

[Junctionfan]

My idea is to tap into the intermodal market. The railroad is about 15 years old.
I want to go to New York to run intermodal to and from Toronto, Chicago, Montreal, Detroit, Cincinnati. Plus I can extend the line to Philadelphia at a later date and run the traffic there.

I plan on running at least 36 trains on the way or to and from New York. If I junction off into Philadelphia, traffic would likely increase at a minimum of 50%. There are a couple of shortlines that can get me into Indianapolis and I plan to exploit than opportunity and so I can run a couple of New York / Indianapolis trains as well.

I'm pretty confident that a new line would pay for itself over all.

[Overmod]

I stand properly, and humbly, corrected regarding freight operations south over NJT and Metro-North from Port Jervis. In partial defense, I hadn't realized how the world changed after the Conrail sell-off. My last sighting of freight on the ex-Erie main was in Ridgewood (and to tell you about how long ago that was, one locomotive was brand-new Conrail 6740!) At that time, the 'story' was that freight was being routed via the old West Shore line, and nothing but peddlers would operate on NJT except under unusual conditions (high wide movements, etc.) Obviously, that wouldn't prevail after CSX took over their portion of Conrail trackage...

If I may extend a bit on LC's comments regarding sensible routings: I'm sure it's fun to just imagine that you have acquired lots of Northeastern railroads 'because you can' -- but I think it would be far more fun to imagine that you have to acquire these lines from the appropriate entities or people, and then have to compete in the real world against those that are left. I might start by:

1) Deciding which main lines and trackage comprise my 'core business'
2) Determining who owns that trackage, and how I might acquire it from them
3) Finding the current owner, lessor, etc. of the ROWs I may want to use (e.g. ex-NYO&W route mileage) and figuring out what needs to be done (public hearings, alternative-use proposals, placating NIMBY property owners adjacent to trackage, etc.)
4) Procedures to request trackage rights -- and conditions of service, etc. over those rights -- from other railroads to bridge gaps or provide temporary service while other ROW acquisitions or improvements are in progress.

A combination of these approaches, for instance, should give you the ability to run multiple independent routes in key lanes, which would then allow directional routing to eliminate 'running meets' from your CTC programming at important times, and as a consequence eliminate much of any need to double-track particular lines to increase capacity up to the point that demand would warrant the capital expense and effort.

Then build and expand operations in the 'classic' railroad manner -- justifying the improvements in real terms, and making the necessary tradeoffs when needed.

I suspect this would very quickly resolve your question regarding pendular trains (with a relatively positive chance of outcome) and new "TGV-class" line construction in northern New Jersey and southeast-to-central New York (much less so).

One thing I'm surprised hasn't reared its head is a rather obvious one: joint "GL&A - MetroNorth" action either to reopen the Poughkeepsie Bridge connection or to work out the new Tappan Zee replacement. There is apparently meaningful support for an "all-New York" passenger rail connection that would connect services west of the Hudson to lines into Manhattan. Currently, everything has to run over considerable New Jersey mileage, which could be eliminated rather easily with the Tappan Zee link (I've seen several proposals batted around for the western shore connections) and with a bit more effort for Poughkeepsie. Load restrictions on a rebuilt Poughkeepsie bridge might not be up to unit-coal-train standards... but would surely support intermodal trains with power similar to that on the 'experimental' NS 25A trains in the NEC. Some interesting possibilities rear their heads, don't they...

[Junctionfan]

Unfortunately, I need people like you Overmod, Limitedclear, M.W Hemphill to name a few, to give me the heads up on what goes on in this part of "my territory".

I can't even give an accurate amount of trains I operate or what kind of business I serve beyond my area. I have a pretty good idea what I can do and what stuff I can run but beyond that, I would like to know where everything is and what routes I can take to be more protolanced.

I can give you a vague idea of how I was able to aquire the CASO line.

I was able to get the line between Attercliffe and Tilsonburg easily enough since there was no track. Since I operated as Trillium Railways which operated in the Niagara Region and St.Thomas area, convincing the local governments to let me use it wasn't difficult. Since CP and CN were not really using it, I told them that they should either use it, or sell it. Since they had no intention of using it, I told them that I wanted it and that they knew if I took them to court and claimed they were breaching the Competition Act, they agreed to sell it to me. That nearly caused me bankruptcy until I found that NS planned on using it for autoparts to St.Thomas and CSX wanted to run a couple of trains from Buffalo to Michigan. I sold trackage rights to CSX and NS which eventually helped to pay off the debt. I eventually was able to slowly buy more of the line towards Windsor. I had to give CN trackage rights because at the time they owned the yard at St.Thomas which eventually bought off of them including the rest of their customers on the route. After awhile, NS sold me their customers in the area too. Now that I ran toward the tunnel, I found a snag. CP and CN uses this tunnel but not very well. I decided to attempt to buy the tunnel and found the bank would not guarentee a loan for it so I was stuck. CP and CN were being real pains and I wasn't the only shortline to suffer from them. I decided to open talks between the two biggest shortline businesses effected; Rail America and the Genesse and Wyoming. We decided that a consolidation of our assets would benefit our survival against the class 1s and that with out territory, they could not deny our ROWs. We began the consolidation and I was appointed as the President and CEO of the newly formed Great Lakes and Atlantic Railroad. With our purchasing power, the class 1s were going to get serious competition. We bought the Ann Arbor railroad which was easy to convice the State of Michigan after giving a lengthy long-term plan which was to compete against the class 1s. With the Ann Arbor purchase, we now had a legitamate claim for a ROW through the WIndsor/ Detroit tunnel. We were able to meet an agreement and we purchased the tunnel and promised fair trackage rights to both CP and CN. Eventually, CN decided to just run exclusively through their Sarnia tunnel, leaving just CP. That was o.k for the western half. Now came the business with the eastern half. Because we bought the CASO, we were givin rights to diamond across the CP Hamilton Sub. CP didn't want a diamond their but didn't have much of a choice. They threaten to take us to court and so we threatened to deny access to the Windsor / Detroit tunnel. They decided to co-operate. Being fair and reasonable, I told the CP that we didn't have to interfere if they sold us the empty land that ran between Welland Yard into the Canal tunnel. Since I pretended to only go to Fort Erie, CP didn't have a problem with it. They sold me the land which was great because building another tunnel or a bridge is quite expensive. CP was forced by the city of Niagara Falls, to abandon their line stretching towards Niagara Falls N.Y and so was forced to extend the line to Buffalo and payed CN to join their Buffalo line. By doing this, CP had to diamond across my tracks. We decided that we could put a diamond across the line. CN became a major pain for the CP trains and was charging them to much money for use of the International Bridge at Fort Erie so CP and the G&A built a line that ran from Port Colborne East, across Grand Island and towards the CSX Belt line at Tonawanda. Since it was a joint project, we share the costs and we agreed that we were both entitled to use it. I extended the new line towards Lockport and bought the relatively non-used line from Lockport to Rochester for ROW at the G&A's Rochester&Southern line.

[espeefoamer]

I offer my services as VP of steam excursions.You will aquire a large Canadian steam engine for steam trips,won't you? I propose geting an ex CPR Selkirk.[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod


If I may extend a bit on LC's comments regarding sensible routings: I'm sure it's fun to just imagine that you have acquired lots of Northeastern railroads 'because you can' -- but I think it would be far more fun to imagine that you have to acquire these lines from the appropriate entities or people, and then have to compete in the real world against those that are left. I might start by:

1) Deciding which main lines and trackage comprise my 'core business'
2) Determining who owns that trackage, and how I might acquire it from them
3) Finding the current owner, lessor, etc. of the ROWs I may want to use (e.g. ex-NYO&W route mileage) and figuring out what needs to be done (public hearings, alternative-use proposals, placating NIMBY property owners adjacent to trackage, etc.)
4) Procedures to request trackage rights -- and conditions of service, etc. over those rights -- from other railroads to bridge gaps or provide temporary service while other ROW acquisitions or improvements are in progress.

A combination of these approaches, for instance, should give you the ability to run multiple independent routes in key lanes, which would then allow directional routing to eliminate 'running meets' from your CTC programming at important times, and as a consequence eliminate much of any need to double-track particular lines to increase capacity up to the point that demand would warrant the capital expense and effort.

Then build and expand operations in the 'classic' railroad manner -- justifying the improvements in real terms, and making the necessary tradeoffs when needed.

OM-

I agree with much of what is quoted above. Some years ago I read an of article concerning a man who modeled the "VIrginian & Ohio Railroad (V&O) and how hw spent a great deal of time actually figuring out realistic practices for his railroad based upon prototype lines such as the B&O, C&O, N&W, Virginian and others. He also figured out how his line could and would compete with the others and what routes it had built. If you look at those articles you will quickly see how hard it was to even get to that point. Andrew has proposed a much larger endeavor that will be substantially more complicated.

I'm also not sure that Andrew realizes the size and extent of either Rail America or Genesee & Wyoming in terms of both finance and railroad holdings (Andrew, feel free to jump in) but they both are sizeable RR holding companies.

I think the ideas are interesting and fun to work with, but lack a fair amount of depth, so far. But, isn't that part of the fun?

LC

[fuzzybroken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

....Anyways back to my railroad.

The company needs to start expanding and we need to go to New York. I propose a line that goes from Syracuse to Binghamton (might buy the existing NYSW line if available) and from Binghamton, travel along the Deleware River to New York (I think it will be parallel to NS). This will greatly expand our intermodal potential as well as general merchandise opportunities now to both New York, Binghamton and the other cities with rail demand along the way.

Andrew-

First make a service application (Mr. Chaaalie apply blake prease...), NYS&W's line from Syracuse to Binghamton is owned by various subdivisions of New York State. NYS&W is largely controlled by NS and CSX who paid a punishing amount of money to buy that influence. They won't sell to an outsider. Even if they did, the state would have to approve it.

Second, the NYS&W does not have a line east of Binghamton. That is the NS Southern Tier Line that NYS&W has trackage rights only over it. The NS is very touchy about the whole thing and then there are the issues with MN and NJT that operate commuter service on the line east of Port Jervis, NY.

LC

Pretty much the same situation with the WSOR. Track is 99% owned by somebody else, namely government consortiums and Union Pacific. Then there's also the trackage rights on CNICWC...

I don't know that there's that much forest product on WSOR anyways, mostly grain elevators that I know of, and plastics. Probably better to leave 'em alone, a nice big shortline/regional makes a better "customer" than a whole bunch of small customers... (this may be the subject of a new thread shortly...)

Besides, I doubt Gardner would give up his railroad. Seems to me WC had talked to him some years back, can anybody confirm this?

Nonetheless, neat topic! My idea for a railroad would go all the way back to the '40s and '50s, first taking over the Milwaukee Electric (TMER&L) lines to Watertown, Mukwonago, and Burlington (WI), dieselizing 'em, and running freight -- lots of freight! Then they'd take over the North Shore when it was abandoned, build a connection to the Oak Creek power plant, and compete with the C&NW to haul coal! Pick up the old Racine & Southwestern to the Quad Cities in the Milwaukee Road meltdown, take over the C&NW Madison line, and be a lean, mean freight railroad operation on castoff interurban and secondary lines.

[2c] and probably more,
-Mark Hintz
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[Overmod]

espeefoamer, why bother with those Canadian engines when you have a perfectly good, at least partly restored 2-10-4 available in Pittsburgh?

[Overmod]

LC, to me one of the most fun things is watching Andrew thinking and learning about this project. When we started, I think it was a kid's dream. It's developing rather interestingly in ways that I think Andrew realizes are teaching him things of great importance.

And instead of arguing "I'm the CEO and it's going to be MY dream", he amends his story and his plans to better fit with the realities of the situation...

I like it.

[Junctionfan]

Thankyou Overmod.

This is who makes up my Board of Directors currently

Chairman of the Board (Executive Commitee) Andrew Hugh Little

Board Members
--------------------------------
William G Pagonis
Charles Swinburn
Mortimer B Fuller III
Robert W Anestis
T Michael Lang
Robert M Melzer
Gary Gibson
Tom Steiniger