Matt,
More awareness than one would expect, mostly because Metro, (Metropolitan Transit Authority) the entity in charge of our mass transit systems, including some of our toll roads besides the light rail and bus system, makes the papers and news media often.
Current debate is a proposed dual use of the UP Hearne subdivision for a combined freight/commuter service….freight in the off and overnight hours, commuters at the morning/evening rush hours.
If you live or work east of IH 45 in Harris County, I doubt you can drive more than a mile on city streets without crossing at least one busy rail line.
Texas has over 9000 grade crossings, Harris County/ Houston has at last count 1200 grade crossings, so it has become a bigger issue these days with the expansion of the light rail system.
Most citizens are aware of the financial impact railroads have on Houston, along with the Port of Houston they are the reason Houston is the Petrochemical Capital of the US.
Because of the petrochemicals, most folks who live or work here have either a direct connection to these products, or some indirect connection at the least.
23 17 46 11
Matt Van Hattem We're taking a survey at Trains magazine. How much do most people know about the railroads in your area? Does the general public have an understanding of the railroads in your area or not? Tell us your experience. Thanks! Matt Van Hattem
We're taking a survey at Trains magazine.
How much do most people know about the railroads in your area? Does the general public have an understanding of the railroads in your area or not?
Tell us your experience. Thanks!
Matt Van Hattem
Matt;
This area is pretty active with trains running in all directions ( South of Wichita,Ks.)
Mulvane, Ks. is an area with lots of traffic, Primarily BNSF. It is the junction of the Ark City Sub and the Emporia Sub ( known as the Southern Transcon). Crew change here is at the Yard on the east side of Winfield,Ks.
Mulvane, Ks. directs traffic east towards Augusta and north towards Topeka, Ks. Also north to Wichita and points north (Newton,Ks and East . Mulvane (JCT), also sees trains on trackage rights from Winfield (SK&O ) and BNSF. into Wichita.
Track speed on the line ( Wellington, Mulvane,Wichita, Newton is very fast.) It would be a guess at speed, but I can tell you it is in the 60mph range south and north of Wichita.
It is all freight, TH SW Chief currently, turns west at Newton,Ks., and we do get lots of fast priority traffic in both directions) Accidents are not an everyday occurence, but they are not infrequent, either. Tranis do run to ten thousand footers, with multiple head-end units and DPUs pushing.
My point is, that many crossings are active and have gates. There is two way traffic and trains passing seem to precludse people jumping out when the gates start up.
UPRR and K&O run out on the south to southwest side. UPRR is the former Rock Island (OKT sub) going south towards Wellington, speed is somewhat lower there and it is single track. I have observed some close calls by motorists at crossings. The two way traffic at speed on the BNSF makes folks seem more cautious; although you still get people who think they have no time to wait. These Darwin Candidates tend to eliminate themselves, when they have a close call with a locomotive at speed.
Traffic at and around this area tends to be at grade, not many overpases, althought the City of Wichita does have an elevated section that takes traffic above a number of Downtown Crossings.
Murphy Siding In southeastern South Dakota, trains are no big deal. Everybody knows they're there. They're just something you have to deal with, like farm equipment on the highway. I think most people in our city are familiar enough with the trains to know that a rock train or a grain train is going to make them wait a bit. Our city has been proactive and has built overpasses where future busy streets are being built in growth areas.
In southeastern South Dakota, trains are no big deal. Everybody knows they're there. They're just something you have to deal with, like farm equipment on the highway. I think most people in our city are familiar enough with the trains to know that a rock train or a grain train is going to make them wait a bit. Our city has been proactive and has built overpasses where future busy streets are being built in growth areas.
Murph is as big city as South Dakota gets! In the more rural areas I think the public is aware of the critical grain transportation service provided by the railroads, and although the ethanol industry has given us an alternative to crop export, the ethanol still has to leave by train. Even given our abhorrence of public financing of private activities, the state was quick to obtain control of the Milwaukee's rights of way upon that bankruptcy, and today those lines are mostly BNSF.
One of the more fanciful proposals put forth by the DM&E when they were attempting to attain public support for their Powder River project was a tourist train to deliver folks from somewhere in the eastern part of the state to the Black Hills. I think the public recognized what a hooter that was -- it came in the form of a press release that was not repeated.
We are the only contiguous state that has never had Amtrak, and I doubt the average person is aware it exists..
A CSXT and an NS line both pass through my city. It also has an airport, a substantial amount of river barge traffic, and several long-haul trucking terminals. Although both my wife and I fly several times each year, otherwise I don't keep track of which airlines use the airport. The only thing that I know about the barge traffic is that some of the barges carry coal for the area's major electrical utility. I don't know which trucking companies operate the trucking terminals; although I'm sure that I'd recognize their names if someone mentioned them to me. I presume -- but have no way of knowing -- that most of the people in my city wouldn't know much more about its rail traffic than I know about its air, barge, and trucking traffic.
JayPotter A CSXT and an NS line both pass through my city. It also has an airport, a substantial amount of river barge traffic, and several long-haul trucking terminals. Although both my wife and I fly several times each year, otherwise I don't keep track of which airlines use the airport. The only thing that I know about the barge traffic is that some of the barges carry coal for the area's major electrical utility. I don't know which trucking companies operate the trucking terminals; although I'm sure that I'd recognize their names if someone mentioned them to me. I presume -- but have no way of knowing -- that most of the people in my city wouldn't know much more about its rail traffic than I know about its air, barge, and trucking traffic.
Jay, I think your paragraph is the most revealing and accurate of all in how Americans, especially, perceive, understand, and negotiate the world around them. Price and convenience are the driving forces, brands are to lead you into temptation but mostly to be abandoned when new and cheaper stuff come along. Coke is every soda whether its Pepsi, RC, store brand or 7 UP! Gas comes from a pump at the gas station with the lowest price or whose card gives the best break or who has the biggest Slurpies. And all trains derive from either Lionel or the one my father used to ride to work and back. Big trucks are many and airplanes fly around the world with the small ones at my airport to take me to the bigger airport with bigger planes...they're white with some other color...what, maybe TWA!
We, as railfans, are aware of our local railroad and railroads. And we're also aware that the rest of the population isn't. But we aren't aware of a lot of things they might be aware of.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I believe many people think of railroads as something frozen in amber, like telegrams and black & white TV.
I think most people are aware of railroads, but they really don't have an understanding of how the railroad affects them in their daily lives. Beyond blocking crossings and making noise etc. They don't see how they receive benefits from having railroads around, partly because most of the times those benefits are indirect. They don't deal with railroads when shipping something even if their item (or truck load) may travel by train. Most people don't ride passenger trains of any kind.
What they do know of railroads is what they read or see in the media. We decry the apparent decline in "journalism" of more or less bona fide news organizations, but with the rise of the internet there is so much more opportunity for "news" from anyone with an opinion or agenda. (Even some of Trains freelance authors have really told it like it isn't at times.)
There also seems to be a divide in some of the previous answers depending on where one lives of what "the railroad" means. For those of us who live in urban areas, especially the northeastern US, where there are commuter and passenger rail options, railroad to them means passenger trains. For those of us who live in areas where there is little or no passenger trains, railroad to them means freight trains. I think between the two, passenger trains since they directly serve the public do generate a better understanding of how they affect people. Even if not used by all people that could use them, they realize that without them highway traffic would be much worse in heavily populated urban areas.
My home terminal is located in central Iowa in a small city of about 13000 population. It's railroad heritage goes way back and is even home to a tourist railroad operation. Even though it may no longer be the city's biggest employer, the number of employees who contribute to the local economy is large. You would be surprised at how many in the area wouldn't mind if the railroad dried up and blew away. They hate the railroad, at least the class one.
Jeff
Same song, different verse.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
You are right, Zug. Despite the internet and all other kinds of information media around us we seem to be less and less aware of what is around us, how and why. In cities milk comes for a cardboard carton or plastic bottle and a steak is wrapped in clear plastic wrap; eggs emerge by the dozen from gray recycled paper carton or while styrofoam cartons and water drips from a faucet with a worn washer and trains take you to and from work event hough they block the town's crossings.. In the rural areas, a car's horn is unnecessary, you grow your own food, bees and birds are important to life and growing crops, and water is a precious commodity coming from a spring or nearby creek. And trains zip through towns, sometimes blocking crossings, be never stop to pick you up and take you anywhere.
I've always been naturally curious, and love trivia. So my interests are far and wide. But one issue with anything industrial is that we shoved all of our remaining industry activities to neat, little, closed off industrial parks. You don't have the daily local blocking main street to pick up and drop off cars. Now it is in the woods behind the industrial park serving sidings that are all but invisible.
One of the interesting curious bits I always found interesting and as a barometer of interest and awareness, is and was, asking one where his parent or spouse worked and what their job was. A good chance the company name was answered correctly but the job title or description was vague or unknown.
henry6 One of the interesting curious bits I always found interesting and as a barometer of interest and awareness, is and was, asking one where his parent or spouse worked and what their job was. A good chance the company name was answered correctly but the job title or description was vague or unknown.
Assistant vice president of mid level manager of projects.
Matt Van HattemFor a long time we've thought railroads have had a kind of "visibility problem" among the general public. This was especially true once Amtrak took over all the passenger trains.
When you speak of a "visibility problem," why is there a presumption that a lack of visiblity is a problem? Certainly, the industry does not think it is a problem.
Not so, Bucyrus...they haven't realized the problem from the Boardroom. But when they want to eliminate a crossing, or they raise a speed limit, increase traffic through town and have to blow for the crossings, and the people are not aware that the railroad is even there to begin with, then, they realize they have a PR problem. The old story holds: when passenger trains were taken off the line and later the final blow from the elimination of local freight agents the face of the railroad in town was gone, its PR mouthpiece and presence evaporated. Having to call to the next town or the next county or to an 800 number in another state caused a great loss of presence and public appearance and relations for the railroads. A track with one or 24 trains a day which don't pass by when I'm near the track means there are no trains, no railroad, no presence. I can drive the 50 or so miles back and forth between Binghamton and Elmira or Binghamton and Scranton or 100 miles Binghamton to Schenectady and never see a train in the roundtrips But that doesn't mean they don't run trains, need tax abatements, have to fix or close crossings, blow horns at grade crossings, go 20 or 60 miles per hour at any given place: they are there but the mind doesn't comprehend the railroad exists.
henry6Not so, Bucyrus...they haven't realized the problem from the Boardroom.
So are you saying that although the railroads need more public awareness, they just don’t realize it? If so, why do they need more public awareness?
I agree that they lost public awareness with the end of passenger trains and local freight, but so what? Public awareness of those services is not needed if you don’t provide those services.
Grafton, West Virginia has a population of about 5,500 people; and the senior officer at the CSXT terminal there is a trainmaster. When the railroad became aware that Grafton High School would have to replace the turf on its football field, it donated $10,000 to the school for the project.
U.S. business in general have turned their backs on the need for PR down to the local level. To them PR is to the politicians, the industry's press, fellow businessmen, and national and international media. Wall St. and Pennsylvania Avenue are all they care about. Railroads with far flung trackage from big city yards to weeded end of track sidings in the hinterland and the small towns and villages in between don't count if they don't produce revenue. In the old days railroads were the lifelines of these towns and the source of life for the railroads. Today, not so. So it is out of sight, out of mind...
henry6 U.S. business in general have turned their backs on the need for PR down to the local level.
U.S. business in general have turned their backs on the need for PR down to the local level.
I am not sure what you mean by businesses not doing PR. Any business that sells to the public advertises to the public. But regarding railroads, I have heard the topic question of this thread pose often in the past. The answer is generally thought to be that railroads are not in the public awareness, and that is considered to be a problem. But why should it be a problem?
Railroads have a very interesting story and experience that they could share with the public if they wanted to. They could share the drama and excitement of railroading and highlight its value to everyone. But they don’t. It would give them good public relations, but apparently they feel no need for that. Why should they care what the public thinks?
Oddly enough, however, some railroad companies see a need to tell the public how fuel efficient they are. That is an interesting point because not only is it unclear why they want the public to know this, but also unclear whether the message is even registering with the public.
I would like to see some focus group feedback seeking to discover how the public interprets the fuel efficiency ads. It would not surprise me if the public utterly fails to grasp how a train could be fuel efficient. I doubt that the public has any chance of connecting the dots with ton-miles per gallon numbers given in the commercials.
Advertising isn't necessarily PR and vice versa. Advertising can be used in a PR campaign and advertising of product or service or just putting one's name out in front of the public is certainly public relations. However when it comes to keeping people aware that the tracks still host trains, that physical characteristics will change or train frequencies and speed will increase for railroads is more difficult because towns don't have the station agent anymore. Business men are leery of the press, feel what they do is their private business, and whether anything is right or wrong, it's not for the public to know. Every PR man as far back as time for them began, has promoted the idea of being upfront early and honestly with the truth of the story even if it is only the way you see it, that getting ahead of a situation puts you in the driver seat no matter. Too many businessmen and politicians don't heed the PRman's advice. And again there are very local, very state, very regional, and very national needs for PR so they often don't cross over.
I think what Henry says about 'out of sight, out of mind' has a lot of merit. I know of no individuals who, unlike in days of yore, ship things by rail. Hence, they have little idea of what the railroads really do other than haul coal. I've had people tell me the latter is all they do, and say it with conviction. Most people now ship via UPS or FEDEX because Railway Express Agency is a thing of the past.
As far as the railroads promoting themselves to the general public, if I didn't know some rails I would be a mushroom (read, kept int the dark and fed horse.....) like the folks who don't know.
How best for the railroads to promote themselves is above my pay grade.
Norm
Norm48327Most people now ship via UPS or FEDEX because Railway Express Agency is a thing of the past.
Ironically, in many cases their UPS shipment goes by.... rail.
I would opine that one reason for telling people about the fuel efficiency of shipping by rail is to (hopefully) "feel good" about getting hung up at a crossing. They can take comfort in the fact that it's a good way to move things, environment-wise.
And, as has been pointed, nobody ships by rail. I have in my collection a shipping document for household goods shipped for a minister to a nearby (and long out-of-use) station from another not 60 miles away.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Recently on this site Don Phillips pointed out most freight moves no mure than 50 miles This is a delivery service, not a shipping service.
But it does look like UPS and other express services are using rail where it makes sense.
Oh I don’t think there is anything wrong with telling the public that trains are fuel efficient. It is just that I have a feeling that the public is not really getting the message from such an oblique ad presentation.
In advertising, it pays to say what you mean. To make the ad more effective, they might tell the listener why it should matter to them how fuel efficient trains are. Then maybe they could make the point of fuel efficiency in a way that doesn’t leave the listener calibrating ton miles. Just tell them that trains are forty-one-thousand times more fuel efficient than a Smart Car, and tell them that makes dinner cheaper.
John WR Recently on this site Don Phillips pointed out most freight moves no mure than 50 miles This is a delivery service, not a shipping service. But it does look like UPS and other express services are using rail where it makes sense.
I can't think of any less than 50 mile moves for freight on my territory. Now there is a lot that is less than 500 miles.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD John WR Recently on this site Don Phillips pointed out most freight moves no mure than 50 miles This is a delivery service, not a shipping service. But it does look like UPS and other express services are using rail where it makes sense. I can't think of any less than 50 mile moves for freight on my territory. Now there is a lot that is less than 500 miles.
Well, of course you don't know of any. You're a railroader after all and since a move like that most likely wouldn't go by rail, the railroad doesn't know those moves exist. At least, that was how the old saying went.
Seriously, most reported miles that I've read usually use 300 or 500 miles for the top end of the average distance that freight moves in the US. Of course most of those moves won't go by rail either.
I get the 50-500 mile thing - a significant amount of the freight that moves is consumer goods. And that stuff is generally going to move from distribution point to distribution point to point of sale. A microwave might travel by rail (container) to the first domestic distribution point, but after that, it's all over-the-road.
The railroad shipping document that I have for a household goods movement of 50-70 miles is from an era when such a move by truck wasn't a common thing, while LCL shipping was an everyday occurance. Even then, the last 8 miles of that particular shipment was by road.
Bucyrus,
The ads for trains I see on TV simply shows them operating. Some are photomontages of historical views of trains along with the people who operate them. The message seems to be simply that trains are here and they are very much part of all of our lives.
John
tree68A microwave might travel by rail (container) to the first domestic distribution point, but after that, it's all over-the-road.
Certainly if I go out and buy a microwave or anything else I don't think about how it got here. I just buy what I want and take it home. Here in northern New Jersey there are a hugh number of trucks on our roads. Anyone who does much driving knows about them. They don't necessarily go slowly but on our older highways with traffic signals they tend to go slower than most cars and it certainly takes then a while to get up to speed. That is an annoyance to drivers. And when there are accidents they get a lot of publicity.
Certainly drivers would welcome anything that takes trucks off of our roads. But, and you and Don Phillips pointed this out, from the rail yard to the retail store trucks will carry the goods so whatever happens we will still see a lot of trucks on the road.
Here is how they advertise railroads in Russia:
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/advertising/paint-on-glass-ad-by-aleksandr-petrov-for-russian-railways-79693.html
Matt Van HattemHow much do most people know about the railroads in your area?
I live in metro Atlanta - a major rail hub that has been completely overshadowed by massive amounts of interstate highways. Most people who live here are transplants, so their local knowledge may be as sharp as places where people are "born and raised". However....
They know when the local road crossing is blocked by a train (CSX Abbeville sub - controlled siding is cut by two local roads). They complain to me about it. The railroad is CSX. I work for NS. Doesn't matter!
One neighbor used to be a line manager for UPS. He knows about railroads a good bit - to the point that every time he sees me, he yells at me about train performance. ...even though he is retired!
Occasionally, I'll run across someone who uses rail intermodal at their place of work. They have a fuzzy idea of what that's about and can generally identify CSX and NS as the major railroads in the area.
Other neighbors, who come from areas where commuter trains are common, know a bit more. Usually, they know something of Amtrak and have heard of Metroliners and/or Acela. They wonder why Atlanta does not have any commuter lines. Even these folk are generally unaware that the Crescent stops here.
Generally, though, railroads are a lot like power lines and sewers. Nobody pays them much attention until something goes wrong.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.