We're taking a survey at Trains magazine.
How much do most people know about the railroads in your area? Does the general public have an understanding of the railroads in your area or not?
Tell us your experience. Thanks!
Matt Van Hattem
Matt Van Hattem We're taking a survey at Trains magazine. How much do most people know about the railroads in your area? Does the general public have an understanding of the railroads in your area or not?
Matt,
Are the two above questions the extent of the survey, or are they just a characterization of the survey which itself has many detailed questions?
If it is only the former, it seems extremely subjective.
No, it's just those two questions.
Yes, it will be subjective. But I'm curious to hear from people around the country about their experiences with non-railfans or non-railroaders about how much (or how little) they know about trains.
For a long time we've thought railroads have had a kind of "visibility problem" among the general public. This was especially true once Amtrak took over all the passenger trains.
I think the situation has begun to change, as more new commuter and transit agencies have appeared around the U.S., and freight railroads have begun advertising on TV.
However, I'm wondering if my suspicion about that is true. Or if the general public, overall, is still pretty uninfomed about railroads, what they do, which ones operate in their area, etc.
Do they see railroads as anything more than just something that blocks their road crossings or disturbs the quiet with blowing horns?
What do you think?
--Matt
In the Southern Tier of NY...Binghamton in particular...most people don't have a clue...NS, CP, NYSW, and CNY serve BInghamton but because of run through trains, trains on tracks of former railroads, swapping of locomotives, lease locomotives, etc. they can be confused about what railroads serve the town. Knowing and understanding corporate structures and ownerships are non existent facts And when a railfan gets the questions, "whey are they going to bring trains back?" and "are railroads ever going to come back?", you know they only think in terms rail services being passenger trains. Some even think the only railroad in the country is Amtrak and it's not here.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I don’t know what to conclude about the answer to the question other than there is much about railroading that only an insider would know. But measuring the collective public knowledge of railroading strikes me as a question that could only be answered by surveying the public with a series of targeted questions.
A survey of railfans on the question is guaranteed to indicate that the public knows almost nothing about railroads, even if that is not the case.
Good point. I wouldn't expect poeople to know inside information.
And granted, all of you on this forum will know more than the average person, but you've also all had discussions with non-railroaders or non-railfans. I'm just interested in what level of awareness they might have, and what your experiences have been.
Well, in our town (Richardton, ND) people do know about the railroad. The town after all was settled by the railroad. They knew about the NP trains that called here, and remember the days when there was real passenger service, days before the automobile and the interstate. And of course they know that the trains keep coming through town.
As farmers (shippers really) they know about the availability of grain cars, they know that the little elevators all disappeared and they must truck their grain to a bigger elevator. No problem, the trucks are better and the prices are better at the bigger elevators since they get better prices from the railroad for running shuttle trains.
They know that most of the trains until very recently were almost all coal trains or empties in the coal trade, and they know that they are now seeing more oil trains on this route. These things people can see if they have their eyes open.
They also know that "they" just built a new ethanol plant in town and that this had a lot of train traffic, and even though the plant is right next to highway 8, they are not finding the highway being blocked by too many trains. Maybe they do not know that most of the switching is carried out at the other end of the plant.
They know that Haliburton bought a tract of land for a (fracking) sand depot but are not sure if this is going to be built after all or not.
They know that new oil shipping depots have been built "somewhere west of Dickinson", but probably have not ventured out there to look at them.
They know that a new grain elevator was just built in Hebron, and that it is served by rail, as is the brick factory.
We recently watched "them" tear down some of the old elevators in town, and we "heard" it was because they were on railroad property and deemed to be unsafe and at risk of falling onto the tracks. Of course we all "know" that it was not the railroad who paid to take them down, but the people who were leasing them who had to foot the bill, as per 100 year old leasing agreements, albeit that they were renewed and signed again every however many years it was that they run for.
So I guess the answer is, if their town is still alive, they know that the trains are there and what they are doing, even if the depot and the station agent are long gone. (Well retired and playing the accordion at church fairs). So, yes, once a railroad town, always a railroad town, even after the tracks are gone, people still feel the presence of the railroad even in the layout of streets bridges and buildings.
Now then, as is well know across this forum, the LION was originally from New York City, and that is one city that knows about trains. The bussiest railroad spot in the whole world is at 6th Avenue and 33rd Street: AMTK, NJT, LIRR with four tracks and a thousand daily trains between NYP and Sunnyside is just under one's feet, as is the four track main line of the Broadway BMT, and the four track main line of the Sixth Avenue IND and the three track terminal of the PATH. But it is all underground, and unless your train is late, nobody even knows that they are there. That is Stelth Railroading.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Here in northern New York, there's not a lot of railroad. The CSX St Lawrence Sub runs through the area, and there are a couple of shortlines, but it's not a hotbed of rail activity. Daily traffic can be as low as two trains, or as high as six or so.
I know from my own experience that it's possible to cross the main a couple of times a day (as in during one's daily commutes) and not see a train for weeks at a time. So unless they do happen upon a train, or there's a train incident (derailment, the infamous Fort Drum runaways), there is little or no media coverage of the railroads.
NYC's efforts to reduce the number of grade crossings years ago also eliminated a fair number of public/railroad interfaces, even in this area.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
As a railfan I have had the opportunity to educate a few members of the non-railfan public about trains... usually an IRATE motorist stuck waiting for a train who has previously seen me parked by the track and so comes and yells at ME to "get that *#&%*# train out of my *#&%*# way!".
I even had a county Deputy Sheriff order me to "move that train!". (That was fun to explain I would not do so, because I didn't want arrested for "grand-theft-locomotive".)
"Most" of the time, I can get the person almost sympathetic to the situation and they go away feeling a bit better (not always, but Most of the time)! My having a scanner with me and paying attention to what has been said to know the situation, (and letting the irate motorist "listen in") helped to defuse the situation once when a train had a "kicker" that kept putting the train in emergency.
My perception from this is that the general public has no idea what a train is or does. It is all some mystical industry that had no relevance to their lives at all. Even the tiniest amount of education (even with my non-railroader knowledge) in practical terms is a big help. "That train" is bringing you your new TV and that other train has the makin's for cereal for your breakfast. And 1 train is about 500 trucks on the highway and 1000 trains in the U.S. per day is 500,000 trucks NOT on the interstate. (I did run into one fellow that thought the employment of 500,000 truck drivers might be a good thing for the economy, I countered with the fuel cost per ton per mile of a truck vs a train, but I am uncertain if he accepted that; at least he went away and left me alone).
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
A year or two ago there was a report on the local morning TV news that the Amtrak Crescent had been involved in a serious road-crossing accident. The news anchor asked the reporter on the scene, "Do we know where this train originated and what was its destination?" The field reporter answered, "No, we don't have that information yet." I was a little surprised that this wasn't widely known. We tend to forget that many people have no interest in trains, except that they are noisy and are a nuisance at grade crossings.
So I guess the answer is very little.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
As a general matter, most people, think railroads are barely operating (unless they are in their IMMEDIATE neighborhood), because most of the time when they see a track, be it at a crossing or driving alongside of a track - they don't constantly see a train operating on the track or across the crossing (and if they saw trains constantly on the crossing they would become indignant).
The required spacing of trains, even on relatively high volume main tracks, makes it seem as if trains rarely operate, when people make their mental comparisons with the traffic they see on the roads, highways and interstates.
On a single track railroad, 24 trains a day is a relatively high volume of trains - 1 train per hour - to a non-rialroader, that doesn't live in the IMMEDIATE vicinity of the line - the thought is that must almost be a abandoned line because I rarely see a train there.
I cross a single track rail line on my way to and from work - the line operates 12 to 15 coal, empty, merchandise and auto rack trains on a daily basis. I get stopped by a train, operating in either direction, about once every 3 months. To someone that is not atuned to rail operations - the personal thought process is 'there are never trains there' - they must not be doing much business.
In the metropolitan area I live in, there is Amtrak, Commuter Rail, Light Rail and a small subway operation - all the drive time traffic broadcasts on the radio give reasonably uptodate reports concerning the On Time operation of these forms of rail transport, in addition to all the highway traffic blockages.
So the reality is - if it doesn't affect your daily life, railroads are a anachronism - out of sight and out of mind.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lincoln NE area: a few foamers - the rest just know that when there is a train going by, it is time to clean out your car; stand outside and smoke; talk to the car behind you; turn your radio up loud and put on your makeup that you didn't get done at home....
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Not much interest in trains as here in Canadaland, they have eliminated almost all train traffic except main lines, almost one generation has no recollection of train traffic, many children in our village have never heard or have seen a train, I'm sure this is true most small towns in Canada, they ripped up the tracks here long ago now it's a trail, sound familiar? When was the last time a railway built a long substantial rail system anywhere in North America except to the odd mine or factory?
I hope my response will be helpful. I will paraphrase the letter recently submitted to The Province, one of two major dailies published in Vancouver, British Columbia, by a Robert Melynchuk of Surrey:
"We can't sustain having heavy trains rumbling through White Rock, Crescent Beach, and South Surrey. Even when I was 10 years old I wondered what bozo thought of putting trains through such a large population..."
I'll leave the rest of his screed unsaid.
Surrey didn't exist when the railroads first ran through there, or if it did, it had a population of 12, and the males all worked for the CPR.
I expect that the majority of people look at them at worst as a danger to kids who like to walk home from school along seldom-used and less-often-policed rights of way. At best, they are impediments to their daily commute, and it matters not which half of it. They forget that millions have used the Sky Train since Expo 86, and that much of what lands at Vancouver's substantial port is then moved by rail. Naturally, what must be loaded on boats is also brought to the terminal by rail. I'll bet if you asked 100 people, six would guess to within $50M what that port does for the economy of BC and Canada, and nobody would hazard a guess how much of that comes directly via rail.
So, more succinctly, and to use yet another anecdote, when I mentioned the popular Shorpy site to my sister-in-law several years ago, explaining who young Master Shorpy was and what he did, she expressed disbelief that coal ever factored largely in the economy of N. America. She is a registered nurse employed by the government. She is highly skilled, highly educated, and highly regarded by all who meet her, whether socially or professionally. That, in a nutshell, is how far too many people look at railways today; askance.
Crandell
Matt:
Largely, people out here in Colorado are clueless about the railroads unless they encounter them regularly.
(1) Most think it's still a dying industry.
(2) Most have a warped idea about the history of the railroads in this country (seen some of the forum threads here lately?) and only know what was taught about them in high school history class from textbooks with notorious one-sided agendas not very well couched.
(3) News flash: Burlington Northern no longer exists (thankfully). Same can be said for ConRail (except Philly-NJ-Detroit)...nobody knows. (especially at the county level and also political knuckleheads in official positions.)
(4) Light rail transit positions here are a joke. (Kinda funny watching bus people try to run rail transit)
(5) Planners (oxymorons) trying to do things with railroads that make no sense. (Colorado Springs/ El Paso County at the top of that stupidity list)
(6) Intermodal does not register at any level.
Matt Van Hattem We're taking a survey at Trains magazine. How much do most people know about the railroads in your area? Does the general public have an understanding of the railroads in your area or not? Tell us your experience. Thanks! Matt Van Hattem
From my experience with constructing surveys for other purposes, I'd suggest keeping it short, but more quantifiable so that you actually get some data. Using a multiple choice format., you could start with two questions that are demographics on age and gender (if those distinctions is relevant to your staff). You could ask how frequently they see an operating train, if they ride passenger trains, and how often.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Here in Southeastern Michigan most folks I have met have very little knowledge of railroads. Some think they are only good for hauling coal.
Can't help but think the railroads themselves are to blame. When was the last time anyone saw an advertisement telling the general public about the benefits the railroad provides them. Also, in Southeastern Michigan we have no public transit using the rails. The Amtrak from Pontiac to Chicago is the only passenger service they'll ever see. The railroads need to do more to promote themselves to the general public.
Norm
I think that public interest in railroads around here took a hit when Amtrak decided to pull all passenger service out of our area. People now tend to see trains as something completely external to their own lives, except when forced to wait for one at a grade crossing. What train activity that does remain here tends to just barrel on through in it's route from a distant point "A" to an even more distant point "B", so unless a friend or relative actually happens to work for the railroad, there is very little connection with John Q. Public.
The only direct contact I've had with a railroad in the past 10 years was when their hired guns have come out to hassle us while rail fanning, evidently just to emphasize where their property bounds start and public land ends. Kinda hard to warm up to someone who prides themselves in being inhospitable.
But it wasn't Amtrak that pulled the pin on passenger trains in general but the railroads which ran the trains. Amtrak was given certain trains and certain routes and certain instructions from Congress and followed through on that basis. They in fact have enlarged the route and services in some areas from the Zypher through the Rockies (remember the Rio Grande did not join Amtrak so the Zypher was negotiated into the schedules later) and the Crescent from NY to New Orleans (here is was Graham Claytor who kept his Southern RR out of Amtrak). Corridor services in the east and what has happened in the LA-San DIego corridor and Oregon-Washington-British Columbia is additional services...and Downeast from Boston to Maine is another example of new services from Amtrak. So, don't blame Amtrak for the demise of the passenger train. But you are right because if Americans can't eat it, bet on it, or ride it, it doesn't exist!
I live in Essex County, New Jersey and I'm sure you are ware my state is not typical of the US when it comes to railroads. We have extensive commuter rail lines and we are on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor line. Acela regularly stops at Newark Penn Station and when I was commuting from Newark to Trenton there would always be people waiting for Acela.
Here people are certainly very aware of trains. Amtrak and New Jersey Transit news is reported in all of our daily newspapers and on our TV news programs as well as on the internet. Most of all, a lot of people ride the trains, not just to get to work but also to go to Manhattan for cultural events. And even people who don't ride are well aware of our rail stations. In fact, in many cases the trains mean that when it pulls in a street is closed off while it unloads. And from a tax perspective the state provides about half of the budget for New Jersey Transit (including both trains and buses).
I think there is no where in the country where people are more aware of trains than they are here in New Jersey.
John
The average mid-Missouri teenager thinks:
1. Trains are yellow (UP territory)
2. Trains are loud
3. Trains are slow
These responses are fantastic. Keep them coming!
Thank you all!
When I lived in Ames, IA, with CNW doubletrack going right through town, most people were well aware of the trains, mostly because they'd get stuck at one of the grade crossings waiting for a long double-stack to pass. I lived a few blocks from the railroad and a little kid in the neighborhood would hear the train blowing its horn for a crossing and say "I see choo-choo" every time. And every so often the paper would have some news of the perennial effort to get the California Zephyr rerouted to use the CNW route through Iowa.
Now I am in Little Rock, AR, and 2 former railroad bridges across the Arkansas River have been turned into pedestrian bridges. UP has a huge yard in North Little Rock, but much of it is hidden behind trees, so the average person driving around town only sees a freight here and there sneaking in or out of town. And many of the roads pass the tracks on bridges, so trains don't slow you down and don't get noticed. Amtrak's Texas Eagle comes by, but that's at night so no one sees it. When I talk to people here, they agree that passenger rail in Europe is great and we should maybe have something like that over here, but most wouldn't vote for that happening or consider taking Amtrak on their next trip. If you don't live where you can see train tracks, I think trains become a nonexistent or at least irrelevant concept for you.
henry6So, don't blame Amtrak for the demise of the passenger train. But you are right because if Americans can't eat it, bet on it, or ride it, it doesn't exist!
I'm not sure that response was specific to my post, but in the event it was, I just want to say that I wasn't building a case to "blame" Amtrak, I was just stating that the apathy in these parts seemed to grow legs after Amtrak quit serving this area...
Railroads really don't want to handle shipments from mom and pop, so there is no connection to the freight aspect for the public at large, and since the passenger trains were pulled (by Amtrak), there is no passenger connection with the public, either. The railroads really don't serve much of a useful purpose to the local community, in other words, so the public only really notices a train when it is in their way.
In southeastern South Dakota, trains are no big deal. Everybody knows they're there. They're just something you have to deal with, like farm equipment on the highway. I think most people in our city are familiar enough with the trains to know that a rock train or a grain train is going to make them wait a bit. Our city has been proactive and has built overpasses where future busy streets are being built in growth areas.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Here in NW Ohio trains get in peoples way.The Maw made news when it actually ran without derailing. Have had to make a few corrections in the local media for what railroad runs where. Another item we are watching is the Clinton St. viaduct. It is due for widening in 2014. It hasn't claimed a truck for awhile.
stay safe
Joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
About ten years ago in my current hometown, there was a big push for an overpass in town because NS ran long trains slowly through town, blocking every crossing. They even wanted to build a new fire station on the "other side" of the tracks because response times were severely affected. Those big plans went away when the railroad didn't want to pay their "fair share" of the cost. The solution suggested by the railroad, to raise train speed through town (limited by an 1890 law, not track) was denounced as carnage in the making. So far, only one fatality, and it was a pedestrian trespassing. With 20-30 trains a day, most people are aware of trains, if only vaugely from the noise, or when the local switching has half or more of the crossings blocked twice a day.
If they read the paper, they would be really aware of trains as nearly every day there is a notation in the police report or the courhouse news of citing or paying the fine for blocking a gravel road in the middle of a passing siding. I think there are more trains using that crossing than cars, but that doesn't seem to be important. The person who built a house next to the tracks 15 years ago calls in a complaint every time the gates come down because he thinks ,"railroads are going out of business," and he wants to help.
These are fascinating responses.
I'm actually encouraged that there are some places (North Dakota and its oil and grain trais; passenger trains in New Jersey) where people at least understand why the train is there and why it's running, even if they're delayed at a crossing.
Do people in your towns know why the trains are running (assuming they can actually see the trains)?
Matt: Only the people that watch them regularly. Otherwise it is just like a stop light - only longer. Most people will totally ignore the trains. They are just another nuisance. And we sit at the edge of the yard where, unless it is a train coming in that will go around the outside of the yard, they move very slowly.
Sometimes they do bad order set outs in this particular area. So if a train even starts to slow down - people are backing up to go another direction. And a good number of them won't even wait past the engines. Minimum 15 blocks to go another way.
MookieMost people will totally ignore the trains.
Mookie,
I agree with you. Most people ignore trains just as they ignore stop lights. They stop if they have to and then go on their way.
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