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Self hating railfans? Why do some railfans hate Amtrak and Steam?

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, March 25, 2013 12:32 PM

Semper Vaporo

D.Carleton

oltmannd

Ulrich

I've never encountered a self hating railfan although the term "foamer" would suggest that we're often not much appreciated by other groups, most notably professional railroaders. But hate is a strong word which I don't think applies here. . I recently went to a model train show in Kitchener, ON... wall to wall raillfans... some of them sniping at each other and being rude. Again, didn't see any self hate there...the barbs and insults were for the other guy.

When I was in college, which was before the term "foamer" came into being, we referred to each other as "'fits" - a contraction of "misfits".  It was a term of endearment.

I work alongside a number of other fans all the way up the food chain. When we're not working and out with our cameras our non-fan co-workers will say "they're foaming." We are all professionals and it too is a term of endearment.

 

Methinks you folk need to get a dictionary to look up the definition of "Endearment"! Confused

The word you are really looking for is "derision".

No,  "endearment" was the word I was after...

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, March 25, 2013 12:11 PM

There was an elderly gentleman here, long since passed, who was noted for driving under the speed limit.  His wife was of the same mind.  She told a woman driving her on some errand or another that the speed limit was "only a suggestion."  As an EMT, I took both to the hospital a couple of times.  On one trip he noted that we were going awfully fast.  Bear in mind that since it was not an emergency, we'd turned off the red lights and were moving with traffic...

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Posted by John WR on Monday, March 25, 2013 9:15 AM

SALfan
Tactical nukes are great for getting rid of mindless treehuggers, annoying morons who drive slowly in the fast lane, and politicians of all stripes.  Now if I could only figure out how to make an Abrams tank do 80 mph . . . .

Being an older guy I am one of the "annoying morons" who drives too slowly for you.  I try to stay on the right where I should be.  However, here in north Jersey a lot of high speed highways have left exits.  I think you will have to put up with guys like me for a while yet.  

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Posted by SALfan on Sunday, March 24, 2013 11:43 PM

BaltACD

Bonas

Firelock76

extreme there'd be those who thought people should be able to purchase anything that went "BANG"  up to and including tactical nukes. 

Well sometimes tactical nukes are the only way to get rid of groundhogs and termites...Geeked

Needs a 100 round magazine too

AMEN!  Tactical nukes are great for getting rid of mindless treehuggers, annoying morons who drive slowly in the fast lane, and politicians of all stripes.  Now if I could only figure out how to make an Abrams tank do 80 mph . . . . .

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Posted by John WR on Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:10 PM

Wayne,  

I'm familiar with exit 163.  I used to live in Waldwick and that was my exit.  It is a left exit which seems to be a New Jersey speciality.  Living where I did I also know routes 4 and 208 up to Oakland.

John

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:11 PM

Hi John, I used to be Parkway Exit 161!  Lady Firestorm used to be Parkway Exit 160.  Turn left, say a "Hail Mary", and watch out for the Garden State Plaza traffic!

Wayne

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Posted by John WR on Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:23 PM

Wayne,  

I think you know I am from north Jersey.  Parkway Exit 154 to be precise.  

John

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 23, 2013 5:03 PM

Terms of endearment

About six and a half years ago, I was taking liquid chemotherapy, and each time I went in I would have to give some blood. Usually the same nurse stuck me, and I began calling her (with a smile), "bloodsucker." (I called one of yhe phlebotomists a "vampire, and she did not object). Once, another patient overheard me, and questioned my calling her so--and she replied, "It's a term of endearment."

Johnny

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, March 23, 2013 2:00 PM

Self-hating or self-loathing (fill in the blank) is a term that is often used to attack the opinions or beliefs of folks who one thinks should agree with you.  In this case, some of us are railfans, like steam, like modern freight rails and passenger services (where that can be found) and Amtrak.  But say a critical word about Amtrak along the lines of how it could be improved and the self-loathing epithet appears.

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Posted by NittanyLion on Saturday, March 23, 2013 1:04 PM

ontheBNSF

Nixon was an agent of the Airline industry as well as other industries.

Right.

In 1973, Richard Nixon shook his jowls and the airline industry sprang out, fully formed, with such force that it traveled back in time to the late 40s.  Because his dark masters at Pan Am bid him do so.

No, it had nothing to do with technological advances made in WWII and airplanes being pretty fast.

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Saturday, March 23, 2013 10:47 AM

Looking at Google Earth, I see that Israel has RRs that do both freight and passenger service.  Tracks run from the Southern province near the Dead Sea then north to the northern province near the Mediterranean Sea. 

The G.E. resolution is not good enough to determine the state of the tracks, but I do see some large yards with many freight cars in them.

I see two Transfer Tables at one shop complex in Haifa (which I have added to my list of Roundhouses and Turntables.  Thanks!)

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, March 23, 2013 10:45 AM

Firelock76
Can a term of derision be a term of endearment?  Oh absolutely,

Self-deprecating humor comes to mind.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, March 23, 2013 10:36 AM

John WR

Semper Vaporo

Methinks you folk need to get a dictionary to look up the definition of "Endearment"! Confused

The word you are really looking for is "derision".

Semper,  

But in English (I don't know about other languages) a term of derision can really be a term of endearment.  

A term of derision to a close friend can mean "You are being very obnoxious to me but I know that I well deserve it." or something similar.  It all depends on the context of the remark.  However, it is important to be correct about the relationship.  Otherwise a term of derision may genuinely insult the target and cause real problems.  

John

Can a term of derision be a term of endearment?  Oh absolutely, depending on what part of the country you're from.  In my case, I'm originally from northern New Jersey and a British friend was shocked at the names we called each other, instant fight-starters across the "Pond." "It's OK Roy,"  I said, "It's all in fun even if it's rough!  When they REALLY mean it, trust me, you'll know!"

If you're from Jersey you'll know exactly what I mean!

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Posted by csxns on Saturday, March 23, 2013 9:51 AM

Does Israel really have any tracks their and do they haul any freight,if they do it can't be as good as here in the USA.

Russell

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, March 23, 2013 8:51 AM

This thread got me to thinking. I wonder if Israel operates  a money losing, state run passenger rail system, and if so....  is the entire population expected to enthusiastically support the program despite the economic loss?  

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Posted by John WR on Friday, March 22, 2013 4:55 PM

Semper Vaporo

Methinks you folk need to get a dictionary to look up the definition of "Endearment"! Confused

The word you are really looking for is "derision".

Semper,  

But in English (I don't know about other languages) a term of derision can really be a term of endearment.  

A term of derision to a close friend can mean "You are being very obnoxious to me but I know that I well deserve it." or something similar.  It all depends on the context of the remark.  However, it is important to be correct about the relationship.  Otherwise a term of derision may genuinely insult the target and cause real problems.  

John

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Friday, March 22, 2013 3:22 PM

D.Carleton

oltmannd

Ulrich

I've never encountered a self hating railfan although the term "foamer" would suggest that we're often not much appreciated by other groups, most notably professional railroaders. But hate is a strong word which I don't think applies here. . I recently went to a model train show in Kitchener, ON... wall to wall raillfans... some of them sniping at each other and being rude. Again, didn't see any self hate there...the barbs and insults were for the other guy.

When I was in college, which was before the term "foamer" came into being, we referred to each other as "'fits" - a contraction of "misfits".  It was a term of endearment.

I work alongside a number of other fans all the way up the food chain. When we're not working and out with our cameras our non-fan co-workers will say "they're foaming." We are all professionals and it too is a term of endearment.

 

Methinks you folk need to get a dictionary to look up the definition of "Endearment"! Confused

The word you are really looking for is "derision".

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, March 22, 2013 2:56 PM

Murphy Siding

   "... Self-hating railfans?  When I read that,  I figured we had a new troll, who just joined the forum.  I was wrong.  It was another self-hating forum member. .."Whistling

     "...Personally,  whenever I see words like "hate" and "hater" on any forum,   I figure it's just somebody trying to stir up trouble and get attention. We come to this forum, because we share a common interest- trains.  Calling anybody self-hating, or a hater just seems to run counter to that idea.   I could be wrong- don't you just HATE when that happens?.." Mischief

Norris;  

I thought there was room to comment on this Thread....Then I ready your thoughts! 

You pretty much touched all areas of what I was thinking, as well. Cool

No point in me gilding the lily. 

Good Job, no need to  pile on the OP . Spot on!

Regards;

 

 


 

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Posted by D.Carleton on Friday, March 22, 2013 2:28 PM

oltmannd

Ulrich

I've never encountered a self hating railfan although the term "foamer" would suggest that we're often not much appreciated by other groups, most notably professional railroaders. But hate is a strong word which I don't think applies here. . I recently went to a model train show in Kitchener, ON... wall to wall raillfans... some of them sniping at each other and being rude. Again, didn't see any self hate there...the barbs and insults were for the other guy.

When I was in college, which was before the term "foamer" came into being, we referred to each other as "'fits" - a contraction of "misfits".  It was a term of endearment.

I work alongside a number of other fans all the way up the food chain. When we're not working and out with our cameras our non-fan co-workers will say "they're foaming." We are all professionals and it too is a term of endearment.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, March 22, 2013 2:01 PM

Ulrich

I've never encountered a self hating railfan although the term "foamer" would suggest that we're often not much appreciated by other groups, most notably professional railroaders. But hate is a strong word which I don't think applies here. . I recently went to a model train show in Kitchener, ON... wall to wall raillfans... some of them sniping at each other and being rude. Again, didn't see any self hate there...the barbs and insults were for the other guy.

When I was in college, which was before the term "foamer" came into being, we referred to each other as "'fits" - a contraction of "misfits".  It was a term of endearment.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, March 22, 2013 2:00 PM

Bonas

Here is a example of another round of naysaying negative railfans in Re FEC All aboard florida-

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3025247

Negative or realistic?  Nobody there said they don't want it work - they are just reasonably skeptical as I am.

So far, nobody's explained how they can make a go with a $1.5B investment that will only generate $145M in annual revenues (that's not profit, that's total revenue. Profit could be 20 or 30% of that, presumably)

I would LOVE to see All Aboard FL work out.  I just don't see how it can...(Does this make me a "naysayer"?)

The only possibility is that they can make it off land value that will appreciate when service starts.  In that case, they can use the land as leverage to get a commercial loan.  They don't need a US backed loan.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Ulrich on Friday, March 22, 2013 1:19 PM

I've never encountered a self hating railfan although the term "foamer" would suggest that we're often not much appreciated by other groups, most notably professional railroaders. But hate is a strong word which I don't think applies here. . I recently went to a model train show in Kitchener, ON... wall to wall raillfans... some of them sniping at each other and being rude. Again, didn't see any self hate there...the barbs and insults were for the other guy.

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Posted by D.Carleton on Friday, March 22, 2013 1:07 PM

Bonas

Myself being part Jewish (my great great grandmother had jewish blood) have a problem with those Jews who while having jewish last names rally against Judaism and a Jewish state. Bobby Fischer (Chess Player and Bill Maher (politico commentator and comedian) come to mind as not only Jews who lapsed but have taken a actvist stand against there faith and people.

Same goes with railfans. There are folks that I meet at NRHS and Model Railroad clubs over the last 25 years that are anti-railroad. They dont like Amtrak and its government support, They think that steam engines have no place in a modern railroad, That streetcars and light rail only works in super citys(Of which North America has about New York,LA,Toronto,San Fran,Toronto,Portland) and dont support light rail or commuter projects in there hometowns.

They are against intermodal explansion in there back yards and for that matter rails to trails and then fight against the trails to rails on the rare occasions when the railroad needs the trail back.- What we have here is Railfans who are Railfans by virtue of loving history and having a hobby but feel that railroads have no place in a modern world. They refuse to help out with NARP or local transit projects and even rally against them as a waste of time and money. I see here on Trains own forums.

I see a little bit if that on Trains own staff like where was Trains when the Burlington VT commuter train was being attacked? Where are they now that Cincy Streetcar is being built and being attacked at the same time? Where are the rail fans now that Detroit's  streetcar  has been cut from 10 miles down to a useless 3 miles,and BTW where were they when Detroit killed its narrow gauge streetcars downtown in 1997? A railfan should not only foam but to evangilise the whole idea that railroads ARE the best way to move people and stuff from point A to point b and for that matter point c.

What you are describing is absolutism, that is, "any theory holding that values, principles, etc., are absolute and not relative, dependent, or changeable." A railfan reads an article title or synopsis alluding to 'diesels saved the railroad industry' therefore steam is evil. Or, 'passenger trains were a drain on the railroads' ergo passenger trains are evil. Obviously there is much, much more to the story but most fans are too busy or disinterested to comprehend it.

Steam is the personification of might and majesty. Strasburg and the Durango & Silverton would not exist without steam. So do I want one on my railroad? NO. It would not support the core mission of the franchise (and I like being able to inspect, start and run a diesel in under an hour).

Passenger trains evoke a different time and mindset. People are willing to pay for such an experience. My railroad exists to reap the rewards for such an experience. Will this work everywhere? NO. Passenger trains were not universal even in the "Golden Age" of railroading.

Bonas, we must learn to be patient with those around us who practice 'sound-bite' railfanning. When they blather just smile and nod. Remember, smile and nod.

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Posted by ontheBNSF on Friday, March 22, 2013 12:52 PM

Amtrak is a joke and you all know it. Amtrak is run not for the benefit of passengers but for the sake of political gain. For example a representative might say vote for me because I am the reason you have passenger train service. Amtrak also satisfies the purpose of being a political punching bag. Amtrak is designed not to work so politicians can also say "oh well passenger rail doesn't work in America and thus will never be improved". Amtrak was designed to fail it hasn't gone out of business but it fails on daily basis and consistently under performs. Nixon was an agent of the Airline industry as well as other industries.

Railroad to Freedom

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:52 PM

Bonas,

You seem to really be carrying the torch on this matter.

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Posted by Bonas on Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:12 PM

Here is a example of another round of naysaying negative railfans in Re FEC All aboard florida-

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3025247

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Posted by Bonas on Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:04 PM

The Jewish Shema Prayer-

Hear, O Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is One.-You shall love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. And these words which I command you today shall be upon your heart. You shall teach them thoroughly to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for a reminder between your eyes. And you shall write them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates....And it will be, if you will diligently obey My commandments which I enjoin upon you this day, to love the L-rd your G-d and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, I will give rain for your land at the proper time, the early rain and the late rain, and you will gather in your grain, your wine and your oil. And I will give grass in your fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be sated.

The Railfans Version-

Hear Oh everyone- The Railroads are King and the are the One Unifing Force in the Universe, You shall love everything about railroads with all your soul and all your might. and these words and tales from the great lore of railroads that be taught to your children and you shall defend the railroad and all those that work for it with all your heart and all your soul. You shall ride the railroad when you rise to work and take it home to where you lie down. (If cant move to somewhere where you can or advocate for it in your hometown) You should bind some sort railroad memrobialia in your house and have a train or caboose mailbox on your front of your driveway.. You shall pay the proper sacrafice that that others may enjoy the benfits by the temple tax( payible by making a pilgramage to that great temple- Penn Station ( as in Lord lead us into Penn Station) ..and it will be..if you take my advice you will have clean air and have rain at the proper time and have a early train and a late train, you will have freight trains that gather in your grain, your wine and your oil so that you may eat and not be not sitting in traffic jams late for your dinner.

 

 

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Posted by John WR on Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:57 PM

wjstix
I know for many folks my age (54) and older, it was hard to accept Amtrak since we loved the old railroads with their various paint schemes and famous "name" trains.

As an older guy who remembers the New Haven Railroad I had a love hate relationship with it.  I did enjoy the cachet of the Merchants Limited and the real dining cars with their silver (plate) coffee pots and flatware and real china (or sort of china) plates.  But there were also trains like the Beacon Hill, a local from New Haven to Boston.  It stopped at Hillsgrove, a long walk from my house where the "station" was a pile of dirt.  I remember a guy about my age walking through the cars with a basket under his arm and a coffee pot dangling from a bale handle.  The food he sold was awful.  But he also had magazines in brown paper bags.  But the worst of all was when I had to stand from Providence to New Haven.  

On the same line Amtrak never has a dining care.  The snack bar car when available is a shade better than the guy with the coffee pot.  With luck there will be a copy of Arrive in my seat but there are no magazines in brown paper bags or otherwise.  However, there always is a seat, it is comfortable and the trains are generally cleaner.  

I'll always be nostalgic about the old days.  But right now I ride Amtrak with no complaints.  

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Posted by baberuth73 on Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:40 PM

The area in which I have lived for 63 years dieselized before I was old enough to know what a train was. I'm more into ancient Alcos and E units. I like steam but I'm not going to have a spasm at the sight of a steam locomotive in action. Even Amtrak is likeable but I still have memories of having to put my 100 car freight train in a siding so a 4 car passenger train could fly past - kind of a necessary nuisance, I guess. That's all I got to say about it.

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Posted by John WR on Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:30 PM

Bonas
A railfan should not only foam but to evangilise the whole idea that railroads ARE the best way to move people and stuff from point A to point b and for that matter point c.

When we talk about moving people on surface transportation there has to be a mix of railroads and buses and ideally light rail including streetcars.

Except buses on dedicated right of ways buses are incredibly slow.  Typically they travel on older roads with traffic lights and make frequent stops.  But by far they have the lowest initial cost of any form of transit.  All you have to do is to put a bus on an existing road and there you have public transit.  This means that buses can be a lot closer and more convenient to riders who can often walk to the bus stop.   It also means you can have bus service where rail service cannot be justified and also where the community itself just will accept the cost of rail service.  Today Amtrak has a number of its own bus roots and coordinates with certain private bus carriers.    

What trains can do is to move very large numbers of people fairly quickly.  NJT older Comet cars have seats for up to 117 people or about 900 on an 8 car train.  There new bilevel cars have seats for 142 or about 1100 on an 8 car train.  (You can't just multiply it out because restrooms take some seat space and on a MU train the cab cars take more).   During rush hours NJT trains often have standing room only.  

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