Myself being part Jewish (my great great grandmother had jewish blood) have a problem with those Jews who while having jewish last names rally against Judaism and a Jewish state. Bobby Fischer (Chess Player and Bill Maher (politico commentator and comedian) come to mind as not only Jews who lapsed but have taken a actvist stand against there faith and people.
Same goes with railfans. There are folks that I meet at NRHS and Model Railroad clubs over the last 25 years that are anti-railroad. They dont like Amtrak and its government support, They think that steam engines have no place in a modern railroad, That streetcars and light rail only works in super citys(Of which North America has about New York,LA,Toronto,San Fran,Toronto,Portland) and dont support light rail or commuter projects in there hometowns.
They are against intermodal explansion in there back yards and for that matter rails to trails and then fight against the trails to rails on the rare occasions when the railroad needs the trail back.- What we have here is Railfans who are Railfans by virtue of loving history and having a hobby but feel that railroads have no place in a modern world. They refuse to help out with NARP or local transit projects and even rally against them as a waste of time and money. I see here on Trains own forums.
I see a little bit if that on Trains own staff like where was Trains when the Burlington VT commuter train was being attacked? Where are they now that Cincy Streetcar is being built and being attacked at the same time? Where are the rail fans now that Detroit's streetcar has been cut from 10 miles down to a useless 3 miles,and BTW where were they when Detroit killed its narrow gauge streetcars downtown in 1997? A railfan should not only foam but to evangilise the whole idea that railroads ARE the best way to move people and stuff from point A to point b and for that matter point c.
As for Steam Engines place in the mod world I see a future in steam engines burning biomass and low grade oil pulling Garbage Trains
Bonas, there's an old English saying that goes "There's nowt so strange as folks!" , meaning who knows why some people think the way they do. While I can understand diversity in the railfan world I can't understand or explain antagonism.
In a way, I used to see something like this in the gun world, at one extreme there'd be those who thought people should be able to purchase anything that went "BANG" up to and including tactical nukes. The other extreme was what I called the "Shotgun Snobs." These were the guys who thought anything other than an Italian, English, or Spanish side-by-side worth thousands was junk and anyone who DIDN'T own a $10,0000 Rigatoni and Spumoni 16 gauge was just an ignorant yahoo. You think they got along?
In any field of interest or endevour, the lesson is, as Ben Franklin said, "We should hang together, or most assuredly we'll hang separately!"
Firelock76 extreme there'd be those who thought people should be able to purchase anything that went "BANG" up to and including tactical nukes.
extreme there'd be those who thought people should be able to purchase anything that went "BANG" up to and including tactical nukes.
Well sometimes tactical nukes are the only way to get rid of groundhogs and termites...
I had a co-worker that enjoyed railfanning and knew a lot about trains, but HATED steam locomotives. He finally admitted that he hated them because his Mother hated them. She hated them because they lived near the tracks and on washdays when she hung her laundry out, they would get all sooty and get holes burnt in them from embers from the passing steam locomotives.
No amount of claiming that steam engines can run on non-flyash producing fuels would alter his view. They are bad because they caused his Mother trouble. Period. End of discussion. No rebuttals. NO!
My position is expressed in my On-line persona... SEMPER VAPORO.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Yet each man kills the thing he loves, By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!
-- The Ballad of Reading Gaol by Oscar Wilde
Semper VaporoHe finally admitted that he hated them because his Mother hated them.
We're all a product of our upbringing. In that case he brought away a very specific prejudice. I can understand that - even to the point that his feeling that way about steam somehow honors his mother.
I've found over time that folks who hate things outside their field of view are often insecure. It would thus make perfect sense that the reason they "hate" a given thing is because they don't know anything about it - ie, they're an expert on modern Diesels, but don't know a thing about traction. Therefore, rather than admit their weakness (lack of knowledge about traction), they "hate" it, so they don't have to discuss it and admit that they aren't the expert they want to be. Ego, donchaknow.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I wonder if any of the people who "hate steam" had been frightened by a steam locomotive? I recall watching, more than sixty years ago, the behavior of a hog whose pen was right by a railroad track when a steam engine came by: the poor animal ran around and around in its pen until the train had gone by.
Johnny
Deggesty I wonder if any of the people who "hate steam" had been frightened by a steam locomotive? I recall watching, more than sixty years ago, the behavior of a hog whose pen was right by a railroad track when a steam engine came by: the poor animal ran around and around in its pen until the train had gone by.
Bonas Firelock76 extreme there'd be those who thought people should be able to purchase anything that went "BANG" up to and including tactical nukes. Well sometimes tactical nukes are the only way to get rid of groundhogs and termites...
Needs a 100 round magazine too
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68 Semper VaporoHe finally admitted that he hated them because his Mother hated them. And it's hard to argue something like that. After all, she had a point! We're all a product of our upbringing. In that case he brought away a very specific prejudice. I can understand that - even to the point that his feeling that way about steam somehow honors his mother. I've found over time that folks who hate things outside their field of view are often insecure. It would thus make perfect sense that the reason they "hate" a given thing is because they don't know anything about it - ie, they're an expert on modern Diesels, but don't know a thing about traction. Therefore, rather than admit their weakness (lack of knowledge about traction), they "hate" it, so they don't have to discuss it and admit that they aren't the expert they want to be. Ego, donchaknow.
He who has not grown beyond his parents upbringing, has yet to become a self sustaining independent adult.
BonasI see a little bit if that on Trains own staff like where was Trains when the Burlington VT commuter train was being attacked? Where are they now that Cincy Streetcar is being built and being attacked at the same time? Where are the rail fans now that Detroit's streetcar has been cut from 10 miles down to a useless 3 miles,and BTW where were they when Detroit killed its narrow gauge streetcars downtown in 1997? A railfan should not only foam but to evangilise the whole idea that railroads ARE the best way to move people and stuff from point A to point b and for that matter point c.
Trains are the best way to move stuff and people when they are the best way! That means trains, in all forms, are not inherently "good" but are good when used in the right application.
Most passenger applications require an operating subsidy. That money has to come from somewhere. Many times, the subsidy is "worth it" because it generates external benefits that justify the expense - improved air quality, reduced congestion, improved land value, (these are all quantifiable) but not always. We vote for the guys who make the decisions "yea" or "nay". I suspect a commuter train in Burlington VT cost a lot more in subsidy than the total of all the external benefits.
I like Amtrak trains just fine. I wish we had more rail passenger service. But, this does not mean that I have to think that everything Amtrak does is "just peachy" and that we should throw more and more money at Amtrak "just because". In fact, I think one of the best ways to get more and better passenger trains is to get Amtrak to "shape up". It's hard to hold the moral highground when you are standing in a financial swamp. I think NARP is a failure in this regard. They are more of a brainless "cheerleader" than useful advocacy group. So, just because I won't fight to save the western end of the Pennsylvanian or keep the SW Chief on it's current route does not mean I "hate Amtrak" or am part of some sort or conspiracy to "attack passenger trains".
Another example. Atlanta is putting in a streetcar line. They got stimulus money to do it. It really doesn't do much to improve mobility in downtown Atlanta since it doesn't go from and to places the residents live and work. It's mostly an economic development tool of doubtful value. There are several better places they could have spent money on a streetcar line. I think doing it was a bad idea. That said, I most certainly will be out there to ride it and take some pictures once they get it going!
Now, why some railfans would "hate steam". That is a mystery except that there is a certain "strangeness" that comes from being a railfan and steam tends to bring out the "strangeness" to the nth degree. Some people aren't secure enough to embrace the strangeness....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Don: I read your post and it feels like I am hearing my own thoughts, but said more clearly. I suppose it is a hazard of what ends up being the middle ground in regard to passenger service, at least on these forums. Do you have a link on the route(s) for the Atlanta streetcar service?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Bonas,
So railfans who oppose the expansion of public passenger rail are “self-hating railfans”? Don’t you think that is a rather hateful accusation?
BucyrusDon’t you think that is a rather hateful accusation?
Railfans don't hate steam, they don't hate Amtrak, they don't hate passenger trains, and they don't hate themselves.
I know for many folks my age (54) and older, it was hard to accept Amtrak since we loved the old railroads with their various paint schemes and famous "name" trains. Plus Amtrak in the 1970's was kind of a mess. But I've ridden Superliners and really like them, and generally support Amtrak. I suspect many who don't are from a conservative political point of view, and dislike the federal funding of Amtrak more than they dislike Amtrak's trains.
Similarly, a lot of folks old enough to remember steam never really got into diesels. I suppose some younger folks who've never seen steam "dislike" it because they've never seen it. I wonder how many of them have changed their mind when getting to see steam in action, like SP 4449 or Milwaukee 261.
IIRC Bill Maher is half-Jewish, half-Irish, and was raised Roman Catholic. He is now an atheist.
schlimmDo you have a link on the route(s) for the Atlanta streetcar service?
http://www.atlantadowntown.com/initiatives/atlanta-streetcar
I don't care for steam. I don't hate it. Just don't like it.
I prefer the new hotness not antiques.
Hating steam, I don't understand. As for hating Amtrak, city rail, and passenger service in general, I think it may be carry-over from hating anything that involves the government. There is a strong feeling among many that the government is always evil and private industry is always good.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
It's just a guess, and I think I agree with Paul above, but steam is frightening for people who have no previous exposure to it and who are inclined to fear or to mistrust older analog technology. Steamers hunt and rock on uneven rails more-so than modern diesels in my recollection, but even if they don't, their flailing bits on the side look worrisome. I'm attempting to place myself in their shoes, as I am a huge fan of steam.
Also, as Paul says, those who are generally opposed to governments taking over systems and essentially monopolizing them or directly competing with private enterprises are wont to dislike those subsidized or controlled systems. I have the same antipathy toward Air Canada and Canadian National because they were both bailed out, and eventually run, by the Government of Canada for many years. It didn't do Canadian Pacific any favours, or Pacific Western Airlines (now WestJet). There is some hostility, for sure. I wouldn't say I am hostile, just philosophically opposed. They do employ many nice people who raise families, after all....
Crandell
People in Michigan love steam. When Pere Marquette 1225 runs railfans can't get photos without many many people in their way.
Norm
I would have to ask you why you insist that someone is "self hating' simply because they have a different set of priorities than you do?
Very little in this life is 'black and white', most things are made up of many shades of gray, and since people all have individual sense of what is important (to them), certain shades of gray are going to be more sensitive to them, than they might be to you.
There is a lot to not like about Israel and it's policies, if one pays attention with objectivity. Likewise, while passenger rail/ mass transportation mike make perfect sense for some, it's not going to look so rosey to someone who lives in an area not served by Amtrak, who is still compelled to pay into the pot ("Amtrak wants more money, yet still refuses to restore service to MY town? Why should i PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSES BOATRIDE?") and stuff like that.
Are you trying to say that IF someone fails to see train issues in exactly the same light as you, then they are not TRUE railfans?
Personally, I've never seen anyone who "hates steam"... EVER....but having been exposed in times past to people who seem (to me) to be overly ( almost rabidly) exuberant in their celebration of nostalgia... it can get irksome when these people try to think for everybody else, and perhaps it's that excess which people come to hate, and not so much the steam itself?
I don't think that makes any person less a railfan, let alone "self hating".
Self-hating railfans? When I read that, I figured we had a new troll, who just joined the forum. I was wrong. It was another self-hating forum member. Personally, whenever I see words like "hate" and "hater" on any forum, I figure it's just somebody trying to stir up trouble and get attention. We come to this forum, because we share a common interest- trains. Calling anybody self-hating, or a hater just seems to run counter to that idea. I could be wrong- don't you just HATE when that happens?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
BonasA railfan should not only foam but to evangilise the whole idea that railroads ARE the best way to move people and stuff from point A to point b and for that matter point c.
When we talk about moving people on surface transportation there has to be a mix of railroads and buses and ideally light rail including streetcars.
Except buses on dedicated right of ways buses are incredibly slow. Typically they travel on older roads with traffic lights and make frequent stops. But by far they have the lowest initial cost of any form of transit. All you have to do is to put a bus on an existing road and there you have public transit. This means that buses can be a lot closer and more convenient to riders who can often walk to the bus stop. It also means you can have bus service where rail service cannot be justified and also where the community itself just will accept the cost of rail service. Today Amtrak has a number of its own bus roots and coordinates with certain private bus carriers.
What trains can do is to move very large numbers of people fairly quickly. NJT older Comet cars have seats for up to 117 people or about 900 on an 8 car train. There new bilevel cars have seats for 142 or about 1100 on an 8 car train. (You can't just multiply it out because restrooms take some seat space and on a MU train the cab cars take more). During rush hours NJT trains often have standing room only.
The area in which I have lived for 63 years dieselized before I was old enough to know what a train was. I'm more into ancient Alcos and E units. I like steam but I'm not going to have a spasm at the sight of a steam locomotive in action. Even Amtrak is likeable but I still have memories of having to put my 100 car freight train in a siding so a 4 car passenger train could fly past - kind of a necessary nuisance, I guess. That's all I got to say about it.
wjstixI know for many folks my age (54) and older, it was hard to accept Amtrak since we loved the old railroads with their various paint schemes and famous "name" trains.
As an older guy who remembers the New Haven Railroad I had a love hate relationship with it. I did enjoy the cachet of the Merchants Limited and the real dining cars with their silver (plate) coffee pots and flatware and real china (or sort of china) plates. But there were also trains like the Beacon Hill, a local from New Haven to Boston. It stopped at Hillsgrove, a long walk from my house where the "station" was a pile of dirt. I remember a guy about my age walking through the cars with a basket under his arm and a coffee pot dangling from a bale handle. The food he sold was awful. But he also had magazines in brown paper bags. But the worst of all was when I had to stand from Providence to New Haven.
On the same line Amtrak never has a dining care. The snack bar car when available is a shade better than the guy with the coffee pot. With luck there will be a copy of Arrive in my seat but there are no magazines in brown paper bags or otherwise. However, there always is a seat, it is comfortable and the trains are generally cleaner.
I'll always be nostalgic about the old days. But right now I ride Amtrak with no complaints.
The Jewish Shema Prayer-
Hear, O Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is One.-You shall love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. And these words which I command you today shall be upon your heart. You shall teach them thoroughly to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for a reminder between your eyes. And you shall write them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates....And it will be, if you will diligently obey My commandments which I enjoin upon you this day, to love the L-rd your G-d and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, I will give rain for your land at the proper time, the early rain and the late rain, and you will gather in your grain, your wine and your oil. And I will give grass in your fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be sated.
The Railfans Version-
Hear Oh everyone- The Railroads are King and the are the One Unifing Force in the Universe, You shall love everything about railroads with all your soul and all your might. and these words and tales from the great lore of railroads that be taught to your children and you shall defend the railroad and all those that work for it with all your heart and all your soul. You shall ride the railroad when you rise to work and take it home to where you lie down. (If cant move to somewhere where you can or advocate for it in your hometown) You should bind some sort railroad memrobialia in your house and have a train or caboose mailbox on your front of your driveway.. You shall pay the proper sacrafice that that others may enjoy the benfits by the temple tax( payible by making a pilgramage to that great temple- Penn Station ( as in Lord lead us into Penn Station) ..and it will be..if you take my advice you will have clean air and have rain at the proper time and have a early train and a late train, you will have freight trains that gather in your grain, your wine and your oil so that you may eat and not be not sitting in traffic jams late for your dinner.
Here is a example of another round of naysaying negative railfans in Re FEC All aboard florida-
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3025247
You seem to really be carrying the torch on this matter.
Amtrak is a joke and you all know it. Amtrak is run not for the benefit of passengers but for the sake of political gain. For example a representative might say vote for me because I am the reason you have passenger train service. Amtrak also satisfies the purpose of being a political punching bag. Amtrak is designed not to work so politicians can also say "oh well passenger rail doesn't work in America and thus will never be improved". Amtrak was designed to fail it hasn't gone out of business but it fails on daily basis and consistently under performs. Nixon was an agent of the Airline industry as well as other industries.
Railroad to Freedom
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