QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan I really am a great person to be around if you ever meet me in person. I may sound like a pompous, arrogant ***; but I'm really fun to be around. Andrew
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Originally posted by Overmod I really am a great person to be around if you ever meet me in person. I may sound like a pompous, arrogant ***; but I'm really fun to be around. I don't really like to talk formal because than I do sound like I have a stick up my butt. I do ask good questions here and there though. Your humility is always what I liked best about you. Reply dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Monday, September 20, 2004 12:51 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Time for me to respond to you all (particularly the bad apples) Okay, let's cut to the chase, if you have a problem with how a few members are treating you, come out and say who. If it's me, say it. Doesn't mean they or I am going to change, but at least get it out in the open. There's enough folks that have things for certain people running around here that take shots randomly. QUOTE: Let me be clear on my questioning and continual questioning. I am not disputing facts so much as I am disputing it's logic and wisdom behind them. This is called philosophy. Being that I like philosophy because it is the fundamental way of free and advanced thought in new ideas, why should the world of the railroad be exempt? Philosophy is described with several meaning including-the study of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge, being and reality; a particular system of philosophical doctrine; the critical evaluation of such fundamental doctrines; the study of the principles for guidance in practical affairs; and a philosophical spirit or attitude. Thats what I'm doing. Philosphy is good. It doesn't put food on the table, but good I guess. There are facts, and there is the interpretation of their meanings and causes. You ask questions, the folks here try to answer them or give an opinion. You may not like the answer..which is often costs. Railroads, like any industry do what works, using the most cost effective means to do so. If it doesn't work, it will be discarded. Something may be a great idea, but the costs are too great to justify right now or ever, to achieve an acceptable return. And like any other industry or person, they are going to continue to do or use what works until it doesn't or it breaks. QUOTE: Socrates said that "the unexplained life was not worth living" which meant that if people do not examine and critically evaluate the principles by which they live, they cannot be sure that worth-while principles exist. To me if it is not logical or consistant, than it might not be true. Great another dead Greek guy. Just because it is not logical to you doesn't mean it's false either. A penguin is a bird, so it should fly, but it doesn't. Why didn't it's wings develop.....beats me. Not logical, but true. QUOTE: If you don't like my opinions, fine; but don't think for a moment that they are necessarily wrong because the whole definition of an opinion is that I may not be wrong and there is nothing stubborn about it unless you can provide an undisputable argument involving something concrete like the laws of physics and I still maintain my opinion. Great, so that means everyone else is entitlted to an opinion too, and we have no obligation to substantiate it. Chances are, no one is going to change your opinions. They may get you to understand the facts, but opinions are just that. I don't like Miracle Whip, can't tell you why. Just don't like it. You are not going to change my opinion no matter how many facts about Miracle Whip you come you with. But I will agree to the fact that it is a disgusting white substance that comes in a jar. QUOTE: Much of what I have heard for so far, is something that is relatively illogical and inconsistant-I may interpret wrong but that's just one of the many catch 22s of being a human. The fact that you repeat the same argument to me and not answer my questions, is not really your fault either but both sides have no right to insult each other when they can't even answer a simple question concerning ones use of imagination without using facts. A sad day indeed when people need facts to use their imagination. In your opinion.........illogical in your opinion. The question may have been answered but not to your satisfaction or in agreement with your opinions. Imagination is a personal trait, as personal as one's opinions. Don't belittle someone becasue they ae not gifted with brilliant foresight and a gifted imagination. Those that do seem to end up committing suicide or causing horrific wars. QUOTE: In concern with the U.S Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I find some interesting language that to me sounds like a loop-hole. Yes there is the whole rights concerning search and seizure in the 6th Amendment and there is some more doctrine to be read in the 9th but I found something very interesting about it all (other than the fact that it keeps refering to the 9 states). Article 4, Section 3 ------------------------------ "The congress shall have power to dispose of and make needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this constitution shall be constructed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state." Now than....let's see what that could mean. Well; that could be interpreted as that the Congress has every right to tell the railroads what to do because the land that the railroads have built on, belongs to the United States. Amtrak also belongs to the United States. According to that (correct me if I am wrong), the other amendments have no precedent over Article 4, Section 3. If it does, than Article 4, Section 3 of the Constitution and Amendment 9 of the Bill of Rights is either confusing to me or is in contrary to each other. Correct me if I'm wrong but Amendment 4 of the Bill of Rights sound more like the protection of citizens from unjust police search and seizure in the Criminal Law sense. I don't see anything at the moment that would lead me to conclude that being the case involving government seizing assets on "their" property.(Government property law?) What I find interesting also is that there have been other additions and even retractions to the constitution (ie prohibition). That would lead me to conclude that any particular law only exists if the people don't vote to change it or create it in the first place. Nothing is trully doctrine when it comes to the law and even religion is not immune. Look at the amount of times the bible has been rewritin and how many religious hybrids have spawned from the Roman Catholic Church. Constitutional changes take place all the time because the original amendments maybe too old and irrelavent to modern-day or is more bother than good (prohibition caused a surge in gangsterism). Look at some of the older countries in Europe that have had to redo their constitution because it was too old to make sense for the modern society. I would also point out that the constitution is not always doctrine because there have been incidents that have shown to be contrary also. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't witches still burned or hanged? Look at the linchings in the south and the government doing nothing to protect the blacks and give them their due process; wasn't it T.Roosevelt who said that a good linching was rather good? Granted that the system isn't perfect ( the Canadian system isn't) but you can't really say that it can't be done because it is unconstitutional when very few people kick up hell to defend their own rights as free citizens-the government doesn't listen, but you still vote in the same kind of people to run the country (do you see where I'm going here?). Incidently, Theodore Roosevelt had concerns with the railroads then (Trust-Buster) The Constitution is a framework which the laws are based upon. And there is a whole industry of lawyers whose job it is to continually re-interpret what the framers had in mind. The basis behind siezure and all that was to prevent a government from siezing property without due and proper compensation....ie the British siezing homes to quarter troops. In the US land is considered private property not the land of the state as in Europe. As for lynchings and stuff......having a law and enforcing a law are two entirely diffierent animals. QUOTE: Maybe it's just me being a composer and all. The whole nature of that business is theory than law-(the theory it is a good piece of music and law nobody likes it). Mozart was no exception but I the thing that I find interesting, even though Vienna didn't appreciate some of his ideas, the majority of the people now all over the world, think otherwise. That's another thing I need to talk about (figures). I am constantly told that where is the figures or proof to back it up? The answer is I don't because it is a theory and it is largely philosophical in nature. There are many scientific theories I can think of like the Theories of Niels Bohr that have been proven wrong later on in life but was law than. Also, what is infinity? I saw the answer that involved infinity but was so confusing, you would be better off taking the mathematician's word for it. I could give nice long and boring figures about it but would you care after awhile? The forum is supposed to be fun and socialable. As I'm not being payed to research and type out the whole thing, the other forum members are not being payed to read the whole boring thing. If I start doing this, I won't get my point across because the other forum members will fall asleep or just skim through and might miss something important. Great more dead guys. I admit, you have a greater depth of book education thatn many of us do. The last dead philospher I read outside of college was Sun Tzu. Your implying that we care to begin with. This is a sociable place, so don't make it work. QUOTE: Bottom line is this... It is not necessary to be insulting to get your message across in the forum. Out in the real world where people can get hurt or killed by someone's stupidity; yes. But this is the forum. No one is going to get injured or killed by someone's remarks that you may find dopey. A philosopher said "the clothes may make a gentleman but it is the manners that make a man". Andrew Finally, the bottom line, which is the topic of the thread. You don't like how folks treat you. We're not academia, though there are a few smart fellas here, and a bunch of experienced ones. The only way which someone here has to judge someone else is how they come across in type. Like I said before, most folks type the way they talk. And this comes across as whining. If you want folks to play in the sandbox with you, you have to make the effort to get along with them and adopt the rules of the sandbox. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 20, 2004 12:35 PM Who was the person who said "The "it's against the constitution" crap can only be used so often before that excuse becomes lame." That is not the way to bring about a reasoned and dispassionate discourse. Oh, just in case someone hasn't pointed it out yet the correct quote by Socrates is either "An unexamined life is not worth living" or "The unexamined life is not worth living." (must be a problem translating the original Greek) not "the unexplained life was not worth living." Your version just happens to come from the ad for a site that sells term papers! Another example why spelling, punctuation and prooofreading your posts is important. Many of us spend a lot of our time trying to "explain" our lives... The hardest lesson for young people is to learn from their elders. Yeah, been there, done that. Unless, and until, that lesson is learned they will keep going back to inventing the wheel before they can make any progress. Reply Edit Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, September 20, 2004 12:30 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod If you are a fan of philosophy, you should be aware of Immanuel Kant's reformulation of the 'golden rule' -- if not, I advise that you find it, read it, understand its context, and perhaps decide to live by it. Depending on who translates it, it runs along the lines of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you by a universal rule that applied to everyone equally" Andrew, you should not be proud of being 'cruel and cold as the devil' at any time, least of all in the same forums you complain contain people acting cruelly and coldly toward you... I'm not proud of it at all. I will try to be more understanding. I admit I can be way too ambitious with my tangents about philosophies and how they may or may not relate well enough to the real world. Normally I wouldn't care if people were talking tra***o me but it kind of bugs me when I don't start it or mean to start it and still get attitude. If you have read some of my earlier post before I had a third star, I made some apologies mostly to Mark because I inadvertantly said something that upset him. I didn't know why it did but it wasn't the point-it bothered him so I did the right thing and apologized. I also did it to Ed because I was too zealous in making my feelings felt and it ended up turning into a really personal attack on my part. ( he said that we Texans have thick skin but I still felt bad about saying what I said). I really am a great person to be around if you ever meet me in person. I may sound like a pompous, arrogant ***; but I'm really fun to be around. I don't really like to talk formal because than I do sound like I have a stick up my butt. I do ask good questions here and there though. As far as my spelling and grammar goes, normally I'm not in a ru***o do things but lately everybody in my family has become extra demanding. It doesn't bother me that much because at least it is something worth doing, but I don't always have the time to correct myself until it's too late. That's why sometimes when you read my posts, they are either perfect or grade 1 looking[:D] I can't promise the world, but I will try to be more sympathetic to your responses. Thanks for listening Andrew Andrew Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 20, 2004 12:03 PM Yeah, Andrew you have to list all the bad apples that really make you angry, let me see: LC- Your head is so friggin big, your either going to fall over and need firefighter assistance to get up, or your going to have trouble fitting into a locomotive soon- you aint' the best thing since Molson, hate to tell you- don't become one of those Old head "know it alls" who get "righted" every 3 secondes by young wipper snappers like myself WOW- I do feel better! Reply Edit Randy Stahl Member sinceJune 2004 From: roundhouse 2,747 posts Posted by Randy Stahl on Monday, September 20, 2004 11:47 AM Good god... If you think people on the forums are insulting you should try the morning CN conference call. It really raises eyebrows when you hear the french canadiens trying to communicate with the boys in Memphis or Baton Rouge. The CN managers aren't afraid of hurting your feelings. You ain't seen nothin kid.. It's a ruthless world. Randy Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Monday, September 20, 2004 11:36 AM Junctionfan - You get the kind of treatment you give other people. Take a deep breath, go back and reread some of your posts in response to people who put forth valid reasons why some of your ideas wouldn't work, and you will see why some of the responses to your posts are less than diplomatic. I have been guilty of putting some "strongly worded" posts on the board, too, but if I put a post on the board that is vicious, I can't very well whine when someone responds in kind. You need to realize that you don't know everything about railroading, and be willing to learn from those who know more. I don't know enough about railroading to argue the finer points, although I've been a TRAINS subscriber and diligent reader for 25 years. I read and respect csxengineer's, Mudchicken's and Ed Blysard's (and others') opinions because they are out there in the real world every day, making the trains run. I read and respect Mark Hemphill's opinions because he has been there, and it is obvious from his posts that he has a lot of knowledge AND is a very smart guy. Finally, respect is something that has to be earned; it isn't your birthright. The folks mentioned above have earned my respect because they actually work in railroading, or have the facts and the logic to deserve it. Nothing wrong with floating outlandish ideas (I do so, frequently), but when someone demonstrates that an idea won't work, don't get petulant and pout and respond with insults. That's the behavior of a 3-year-old, and any respect you might have earned up to that point goes out the window. Reply Overmod Member sinceSeptember 2003 21,669 posts Posted by Overmod on Monday, September 20, 2004 11:33 AM If you are a fan of philosophy, you should be aware of Immanuel Kant's reformulation of the 'golden rule' -- if not, I advise that you find it, read it, understand its context, and perhaps decide to live by it. Depending on who translates it, it runs along the lines of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you by a universal rule that applied to everyone equally" Andrew, you should not be proud of being 'cruel and cold as the devil' at any time, least of all in the same forums you complain contain people acting cruelly and coldly toward you... Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 20, 2004 11:32 AM We need to respect everyones opinion even if it does not agree with our line of thought. Afterall, we live in a very diverse world with many conflicting opinions on every topic. Some topics are like touching the third rail such as religion and politics. Do not even go there. The forum gives all of us the oopportunity to express our views on a subject. By reading alternative views we can all grow a little in knowledge. A short note to Mark H.: I admit my typing is not letter perfect. Many of my mispellings are the result of fat fingers on the keys. Could you install a form of spell check for the forum. That might remove much of the grief some of us get from the fat finger syndrome. Cheers, *** Watkins Reply Edit tree68 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Northern New York 25,024 posts Posted by tree68 on Monday, September 20, 2004 10:58 AM Andrew - let's get a re-write of your post that does not assume that the government owns any of the property on which the railroads are built. While there were some land grants involved in the building of some of the western railroads, the greatest portion of the rail mileage in the US is built on right of ways acquired in exactly the same manner as the property my house was built on. They paid for it. The government does have the right of eminent domain, but they have to have a reason. And they have to fairly compensate the property owner for what they take - they can't just "take" it. As for the leadership that gets elected - they do so based on a large number of parameters. The candidate who tells the most people what they want to hear gets the prize. People how don't care about railroads don't care how the candidate feels about trains unless it affects them directly. Your opinions are not without value. But you must also factor in experience. Just because you feel something is a good idea doesn't mean it will work. The US Patent Office is chock full of wonderful inventions that weren't worth the paper they were drawn on or the materials used to make a model of them. But their creator thought the world of the idea. And has a patent on it. Several people have offered "been there, done that, didn't work" explanations, but you seem to choose to ignore their experience/knowledge. QUOTE: What is there to not understand? Can't you use any logic and imagination to find out what I'm saying? I re-read it to make sure it was clear as a bell and it is. Your challenge here is to make it understood by all, not just yourself. In doing so you will either enlighten us with your brilliance or discover the fallacy of your arguments. At present it would appear that few of us are dazzled by your concepts, but several have found fallacies in what you have to say. You want us to listen to what you say - try listening to what we say. I recall reading somewhere that a definition of insanity was trying the same things over and over, expecting a different result... Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it... Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, September 20, 2004 10:40 AM Point well taken... Have you read it? Do you understand it? Andrew Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, September 20, 2004 10:28 AM What is there to not understand? Can't you use any logic and imagination to find out what I'm saying? I re-read it to make sure it was clear as a bell and it is. I don't have to name the "bad-apples", they know who they are. Andrew Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, September 20, 2004 9:46 AM Time for me to respond to you all (particularly the bad apples) Let me be clear on my questioning and continual questioning. I am not disputing facts so much as I am disputing it's logic and wisdom behind them. This is called philosophy. Being that I like philosophy because it is the fundamental way of free and advanced thought in new ideas, why should the world of the railroad be exempt? Philosophy is described with several meaning including-the study of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge, being and reality; a particular system of philosophical doctrine; the critical evaluation of such fundamental doctrines; the study of the principles for guidance in practical affairs; and a philosophical spirit or attitude. Thats what I'm doing. Socrates said that "the unexplained life was not worth living" which meant that if people do not examine and critically evaluate the principles by which they live, they cannot be sure that worth-while principles exist. To me if it is not logical or consistant, than it might not be true. If you don't like my opinions, fine; but don't think for a moment that they are necessarily wrong because the whole definition of an opinion is that I may not be wrong and there is nothing stubborn about it unless you can provide an undisputable argument involving something concrete like the laws of physics and I still maintain my opinion. Much of what I have heard for so far, is something that is relatively illogical and inconsistant-I may interpret wrong but that's just one of the many catch 22s of being a human. The fact that you repeat the same argument to me and not answer my questions, is not really your fault either but both sides have no right to insult each other when they can't even answer a simple question concerning ones use of imagination without using facts. A sad day indeed when people need facts to use their imagination. In concern with the U.S Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I find some interesting language that to me sounds like a loop-hole. Yes there is the whole rights concerning search and seizure in the 6th Amendment and there is some more doctrine to be read in the 9th but I found something very interesting about it all (other than the fact that it keeps refering to the 9 states). Article 4, Section 3 ------------------------------ "The congress shall have power to dispose of and make needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this constitution shall be constructed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state." Now than....let's see what that could mean. Well; that could be interpreted as that the Congress has every right to tell the railroads what to do because the land that the railroads have built on, belongs to the United States. Amtrak also belongs to the United States. According to that (correct me if I am wrong), the other amendments have no precedent over Article 4, Section 3. If it does, than Article 4, Section 3 of the Constitution and Amendment 9 of the Bill of Rights is either confusing to me or is in contrary to each other. Correct me if I'm wrong but Amendment 4 of the Bill of Rights sound more like the protection of citizens from unjust police search and seizure in the Criminal Law sense. I don't see anything at the moment that would lead me to conclude that being the case involving government seizing assets on "their" property.(Government property law?) What I find interesting also is that there have been other additions and even retractions to the constitution (ie prohibition). That would lead me to conclude that any particular law only exists if the people don't vote to change it or create it in the first place. Nothing is trully doctrine when it comes to the law and even religion is not immune. Look at the amount of times the bible has been rewritin and how many religious hybrids have spawned from the Roman Catholic Church. Constitutional changes take place all the time because the original amendments maybe too old and irrelavent to modern-day or is more bother than good (prohibition caused a surge in gangsterism). Look at some of the older countries in Europe that have had to redo their constitution because it was too old to make sense for the modern society. I would also point out that the constitution is not always doctrine because there have been incidents that have shown to be contrary also. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't witches still burned or hanged? Look at the linchings in the south and the government doing nothing to protect the blacks and give them their due process; wasn't it T.Roosevelt who said that a good linching was rather good? Granted that the system isn't perfect ( the Canadian system isn't) but you can't really say that it can't be done because it is unconstitutional when very few people kick up hell to defend their own rights as free citizens-the government doesn't listen, but you still vote in the same kind of people to run the country (do you see where I'm going here?). Incidently, Theodore Roosevelt had concerns with the railroads then (Trust-Buster) Maybe it's just me being a composer and all. The whole nature of that business is theory than law-(the theory it is a good piece of music and law nobody likes it). Mozart was no exception but I the thing that I find interesting, even though Vienna didn't appreciate some of his ideas, the majority of the people now all over the world, think otherwise. That's another thing I need to talk about (figures). I am constantly told that where is the figures or proof to back it up? The answer is I don't because it is a theory and it is largely philosophical in nature. There are many scientific theories I can think of like the Theories of Niels Bohr that have been proven wrong later on in life but was law than. Also, what is infinity? I saw the answer that involved infinity but was so confusing, you would be better off taking the mathematician's word for it. I could give nice long and boring figures about it but would you care after awhile? The forum is supposed to be fun and socialable. As I'm not being payed to research and type out the whole thing, the other forum members are not being payed to read the whole boring thing. If I start doing this, I won't get my point across because the other forum members will fall asleep or just skim through and might miss something important. Bottom line is this... It is not necessary to be insulting to get your message across in the forum. Out in the real world where people can get hurt or killed by someone's stupidity; yes. But this is the forum. No one is going to get injured or killed by someone's remarks that you may find dopey. A philosopher said "the clothes may make a gentleman but it is the manners that make a man". Andrew Andrew Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, September 20, 2004 4:22 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Dave, Wouldn't the opposite also apply? If, after years of doing this for a living, and seeing first hand what will, and will not work in a actual railroad enviroment, I explain that a concept, although workable on paper and in theory, can not be made to work in real life without tremendous expense, shouldnt that carry as much weight as the proponent of the concept seems to demand for his idea? Myself, and several other have over and over explained that the powers junctionfan seems to belive our goverment has do not exsist. We have repeatedly asked him to review his facts, and on several occasions, overmod has gently nudged him to gather hard facts and figures, to no avail. All attempts at getting him to see our side seem to result in his getting upset that we do not seem to want to jump on his bandwagon, impeach our government, create radical change, and "make it work", when in fact, combined, we may have over a century of railroading experience among us, and for the most part, we have seen most everything, and when we ask for hard facts, we want hard facts, not complaints that we are being mean, nor demands we change our viewpoint without actual figures showing we are incorrect. Thick skin is a necessary accesory out here. He states he welcomes debate, but whenever anyone debates with him, he resorts to accusing his opponent of being mean and insulting. True, but he seems more intent on making his opponent play nice, and respect his concept, instead of defending his position/concept, and providing facts to base his position on. No one here has to respect his ideas and concepts, until he puts on a pair of workboots and gloves, and starts tieing hand brakes and throwing switches. Although being a armchair railroader might be fun, doing it for real, and a living, is even better, and more educating. So far, I have seen no hard fact and figures for the idea, despite repeated request from several members for such information. I noticed in your post you used the phrase "it might work, if only someone would let it" . Thats a large part of the conflict... You dont let things happen at a railroad, you make them happen. There is no "might work" in our world, it either does, or does not work, there is no might... Out here, might work and maybe are phrases and words that get people hurt, gets trains derailed and engineers dead. Cars are either in the clean, or not, and you cant take the chance that they "might be", you have to be sure. Yup, my two cents worth is based on a personal bias and personal experience, for me its not a objective experience, its a completely subjective deal. I do this for a living, not a hobby or a excersise in railroad theory, but as a daily grind job. As soon as Andrew, and a few others, come switching with me for one day, things will look quite different to them, trust me. And you may want to re-read his postings, most of which include reference to our industry and our railroaders being stupid, dumd, ect....so chase the insults down to their source, you know the quoat, "before removing the mote in thy neighbors eye, attend to the beam in thy own"? You might also think about the fact that LC, me, Mark H, CSX and a host of others all have been there, done that, and got the tee shirt to show it, which, out here, counts a lot more than the sheepskin on the wall. And I might add, quite a few of the above mentioned have a several of those too, along with the tee shirts. This aint rocket science, its railroading..real simple. Ed all i got to say to that is...well said... i wish i had the laugual skills to express it as well as you did...but then agin...i like being a bit more blunt..lol csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Monday, September 20, 2004 12:19 AM He he he, Sometimes a thread is almost more fun to watch than to participate in...... Okay Andrew, here's the deal.....out and out personal attacks and flaming....not considered to be proper etiquette on the forums....whining about why no one treats you nicely, probably not such good form either....so if the other kids at the playground make fun of you and call you names..perhaps you need to take a look at how you're coming across to them. So far I haven't seen where anyone has made a blantant personal attack, and believe me we've had a few charmers around here. But you have been they target of a few ....remarks. But by and large folks tend to write the way the speak. Folks who are in a profession such as railroads, military, sailors, firemen, police officers, etc....tend to be a bit curt sometimes in dealing with other....it's a fact of life. They way we talk here, is way toned down from the way we tend to talk at work or we'd get tossed off the forums. But nonetheless, in getting points across in these lines of work, you at times belittle folks because a bit of shaming goes a long way. It's not always the most effective tool, and sometimes it's not the appropriate tool, but it tends to be the first round out of box. Most of us have to deal daily with young bucks that feel the need to show us what we're doing wrong and how we can do it better. If you want folks to engage you stimulating discussion, and to take what you have to say seriously, then you are going to have to roll with and establish rapport. And that ain't gonna happen if you come across as a whiner. That is as true here as it is in the rest of life. So in short it means thickening the skin a bit and taking what a few of the pros here say to heart. I don't tell them how to run a railroad and hopefully they won't try and tell me how to fly a plane or run my sailors. I've seen alot of flaming and personal attacks on the forum, and I'll be the one of the first to complain when someone gets beat up for no reason or unjustly so. But if the "vicitim" brings it on themselves or continues to bring it upon themsleves, then they're on their own. Sarcastic replies, my suggestion is to ignore it if you don't like it. If it's an out and out personal attack, then you can either choose to ignore it too or bring it to the attention of someone. But as far as I can tell you haven't come close to being flamed yet. Reply Randy Stahl Member sinceJune 2004 From: roundhouse 2,747 posts Posted by Randy Stahl on Sunday, September 19, 2004 10:46 PM I'll come switch with you Ed... We can use my S6 !!! A real switch engine, one that loads when you tell it too. See if we can't shake the rust off ! Randy Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Sunday, September 19, 2004 10:39 PM Dave, Wouldn't the opposite also apply? If, after years of doing this for a living, and seeing first hand what will, and will not work in a actual railroad enviroment, I explain that a concept, although workable on paper and in theory, can not be made to work in real life without tremendous expense, shouldnt that carry as much weight as the proponent of the concept seems to demand for his idea? Myself, and several other have over and over explained that the powers junctionfan seems to belive our goverment has do not exsist. We have repeatedly asked him to review his facts, and on several occasions, overmod has gently nudged him to gather hard facts and figures, to no avail. All attempts at getting him to see our side seem to result in his getting upset that we do not seem to want to jump on his bandwagon, impeach our government, create radical change, and "make it work", when in fact, combined, we may have over a century of railroading experience among us, and for the most part, we have seen most everything, and when we ask for hard facts, we want hard facts, not complaints that we are being mean, nor demands we change our viewpoint without actual figures showing we are incorrect. Thick skin is a necessary accesory out here. He states he welcomes debate, but whenever anyone debates with him, he resorts to accusing his opponent of being mean and insulting. True, but he seems more intent on making his opponent play nice, and respect his concept, instead of defending his position/concept, and providing facts to base his position on. No one here has to respect his ideas and concepts, until he puts on a pair of workboots and gloves, and starts tieing hand brakes and throwing switches. Although being a armchair railroader might be fun, doing it for real, and a living, is even better, and more educating. So far, I have seen no hard fact and figures for the idea, despite repeated request from several members for such information. I noticed in your post you used the phrase "it might work, if only someone would let it" . Thats a large part of the conflict... You dont let things happen at a railroad, you make them happen. There is no "might work" in our world, it either does, or does not work, there is no might... Out here, might work and maybe are phrases and words that get people hurt, gets trains derailed and engineers dead. Cars are either in the clean, or not, and you cant take the chance that they "might be", you have to be sure. Yup, my two cents worth is based on a personal bias and personal experience, for me its not a objective experience, its a completely subjective deal. I do this for a living, not a hobby or a excersise in railroad theory, but as a daily grind job. As soon as Andrew, and a few others, come switching with me for one day, things will look quite different to them, trust me. And you may want to re-read his postings, most of which include reference to our industry and our railroaders being stupid, dumd, ect....so chase the insults down to their source, you know the quoat, "before removing the mote in thy neighbors eye, attend to the beam in thy own"? You might also think about the fact that LC, me, Mark H, CSX and a host of others all have been there, done that, and got the tee shirt to show it, which, out here, counts a lot more than the sheepskin on the wall. And I might add, quite a few of the above mentioned have a several of those too, along with the tee shirts. This aint rocket science, its railroading..real simple. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Sunday, September 19, 2004 10:29 PM junctionfan What you are up against is a group of people with years of knowledge about the subject of your ideas and in many cases it is a matter of "been their, done that". That is not to say something that you thought of has actually been tried, but that somebody or some group paid to think of, evaluate, recommend and implement an idea, has decided that something like the idea you propose will not fly. Some of the members of this forum might have actually been involved in this kind of planning, many more probably just know about these kinds of studies. I have about 40 more years in business than you, about 15 on railroads, the same time in traffic and logistics management for shippers and another 10 in my own business. I have had lots of ideas. When it was in the area of my job responsibility, I put forth those that seemed to have merit. I must say that most were shot down at some stage of the game, a few, usually modest in scope, made it through the gauntlet and were adopted. I don't remember for sure, but I think there had to be a time or two when a boss came back to me with words to the effect that it was "the dumbest idea that I have ever heard". It is a little bit different on the forum, because livelihoods-jobs- are not a stake, and everybody is open to having some fun with an off the wall idea. For example, I participated in the discussions about multiple crews on trains, and was included in those whom csxengineer declared as being nuts. Last I checked, my sanity was in pretty good shape, but after the idea was kicked around, the few merits of the plan were way offset by the total impracticality of the plan. Some things might be possible, but if the cost of doing something new is greater than any savings and there is no usefuil service improvement, what is the point? Change for change sake doesn't make more money. By the way, I disagree with csxengineer on some things, but I won't disrespect his ability or the experience he has on his job, nor will I second guess what his life is like with his occupation. I have never even seen his shoes, let alone walked in them. Sometimes attitude comes into play. If you throw out an idea, and imply that anybody that does not agree must be really stupid, at best you will just be ignored. If you take the approach that you have an idea, this is your plan, these are the facts and the merits as you see them, any comments, chances are you will get more respectful responses. Euphimistically, you run it up the flagpole. Some will salute, a few might help to pull it higher, others will cut done the pole and burn the flag. You have to be prepared for all kinds of responses. I am sorry that you were upset about some things that were thrown back at you, but just like real life, playing in the virtual world of forums can require a pretty thick skin. However, unlike real life, you can log off a forum and, if your behavior has been within the law, it is not there anymore. It could be a good training ground. Your comments back are welcome, either here or my email. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 19, 2004 9:21 PM Mark, I used my Turbostory to relate an insulting situation on the railroad as an illustration of things that are said. I didn't think the techs remarks were necessary. I just thought they were downright funny. Iron Mike had it coming. He also said that trainmen's contracts were bad. He said,"Trainmen don't want money, they want miles." Here's another Turbostory for bedtime. On the LaCrosse division we had an engineer who had been a cowboy in Idaho. He was one of the funniest people I ever worked with on the railroad. We came through Oconomowoc one morning on a road freight. We were moving slowly due to a restricting signal. As we clanked across street crossings in town he would put his jacket on backwards, flip his hat around, hang way out of the cab, flap his arms and roar. All the car horns would start blaring. One day, on a day off, the Wisconsin Division caller called him to be the fireman on a Turbotrain to Chicago. "Worst trip I ever was on," he told me. "That kazoo (he meant Astazue, but was referring to the deadman alerter) kept going off, and the train kept dying." "Later on that goofy French technician asked me what I thought of their train." "I told him, "You folks should've stuck to makin' rubbers 'cause this ain't no locomotive!" That one had me soaking wet for 3 days. Good night kids, Mitch Reply Edit csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Sunday, September 19, 2004 4:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES. No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate! some of what you mentioned has been discused...and has been showen that it WONT WORK.... its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject...its more a matter of wanting it killed becoues stupid people insist on beating a dead horse mentality... people that think they have all the anwswers and think they have every angle covered keep forgetting the major point ....REALITY!!!! thier ideas and ways of thinking might sound great on paper..but in the REAL WORLD (REALITY) they have been tried and have failed..or have already been proposed and have failed befor they ever got off the drawing board.... but to keep trying to attack it from all angles..only to have the ideas shot down..time and time agin...gets old... thats the point here... one can only tell someone so many times befor they get POed and just tell you to shove it and drop the idea... csx engineer .......blah blah blah blah blah blah was discussed blah blah blah......blah blah blah WONT WORK blah blah........blah blah blah REALITY (sic)!!!! blah blah blah blah been tried blah blah blah blah blah ideas shot down blah blah blah........ blah blah blah........ gets old gets POed blah blah blah shove it.... Is that the gist? The question I have is if these topics get you all riled, why not just ignore them? You can only have a conversation so far before some element of insecurity takes hold and causes a blow up. I think Junction Fan's whole point is that you don't need to be insulting, and if you only have limited information or a total reliance on a personal bias to explain a view, then you have to expect a proponent of that view to ask for a more detailed reason for your opposition to that view. Just constantly saying IT WONT WORK when common sense, theoretical constructs, number crunching, and the desire to tackle a percieved problem head on all say that IT JUST MIGHT WORK if only someone will let it work, or at least let it evolve into a workable solution to some degree, is not providing what should be demanded in discussing these topics, which is to exhaust all possibilities before someone's idea is dismissed. Your two cents worth are certainly taken into consideration, but beyond that you really should defer to a larger body of knowledge rather than making yourself judge and jury and pronouncing sentence. Otherwise, you may just end up suppressing someone's idea that might someday make a huge improvement to some sector of the entire railroading genre. the problems that you seem to want to solve are problems that you..or someone that is on the outside of the railroading industry sees as a "problem" when in fact its not... and have a soltion to the "problem" the dosnt exist.... i have no dought that someday someone will come across an idea that will improve the industry... but when an idea is shown that no matter how great it sounds on paper has no practial use in the real world of rail roading...case in point was the thread on putting multipule crews on trains to eliminate crew changes to save time.... no matter how many times the idea was shown to have major flaws...some people still think that it is posable...but a few think that they could prove that it could be done...dispite the mounting information that shows it wasnt fesable in real world railroading....it sounded like a great idea..but facts show its not posable... one can only civily discuse something for so long and not make any headway to get the person to see the other side of the coin...befor the listin you idiot ..what part of its not possable dont you get? comes out.... some people on here might be a bit better at suger coating to help get a point across..but im not one of them...i am point blank...and im not going to change....and if it takes getting a little hot under the collor to help make my point..then so be it.... i have real world railroad experiance under my belt... which is something that some of the people that propose idiotic and down right impractial ideas to "help" the rail industry dont have... so to give a little pointer to avoid confrentation in the futur regarding ideas to help the railroads.....keep in mind this one rule about the railroads they want to elimiate as expence from the bottom line as possable...meaning.. smaller crews... technoligy to replace crews... and do more with less crews... now if someones idea can show that the rule is met in a real cost saveings matter..then the railroads might look at your idea as a possable one to use... bottom line is the cash...if its going to cost money more money in the long run...they are not going to use it... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply Overmod Member sinceSeptember 2003 21,669 posts Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:19 PM Dave -- let me say this gently. When csxengineer and the other railroaders say 'it won't work', it's both because they can see problems that exist in their experience and aren't being solved, and because their experience tells them that a given theoretical approach isn't right, or isn't optimal in the real world although with a restricted or theoretical set of conditions or evaluations it may seem good. While they may be crotchety in response, it's a good idea to separate out the valuable criteria of criticism, and make them your own, and adopt a 'sticks and stones' approach toward what you may not like. At least part of the crotchetiness comes from seeing the same old things crop up, in the same old forms, with the same old reasons why it won't work, too many times. Some people tend to lose patience when it's the same person that keeps doing that. Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:11 PM Mark, I think the odds just went through the roof.... 23 17 46 11 Reply 1234 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Overmod I really am a great person to be around if you ever meet me in person. I may sound like a pompous, arrogant ***; but I'm really fun to be around. I don't really like to talk formal because than I do sound like I have a stick up my butt. I do ask good questions here and there though.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Time for me to respond to you all (particularly the bad apples)
QUOTE: Let me be clear on my questioning and continual questioning. I am not disputing facts so much as I am disputing it's logic and wisdom behind them. This is called philosophy. Being that I like philosophy because it is the fundamental way of free and advanced thought in new ideas, why should the world of the railroad be exempt? Philosophy is described with several meaning including-the study of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge, being and reality; a particular system of philosophical doctrine; the critical evaluation of such fundamental doctrines; the study of the principles for guidance in practical affairs; and a philosophical spirit or attitude. Thats what I'm doing.
QUOTE: Socrates said that "the unexplained life was not worth living" which meant that if people do not examine and critically evaluate the principles by which they live, they cannot be sure that worth-while principles exist. To me if it is not logical or consistant, than it might not be true.
QUOTE: If you don't like my opinions, fine; but don't think for a moment that they are necessarily wrong because the whole definition of an opinion is that I may not be wrong and there is nothing stubborn about it unless you can provide an undisputable argument involving something concrete like the laws of physics and I still maintain my opinion.
QUOTE: Much of what I have heard for so far, is something that is relatively illogical and inconsistant-I may interpret wrong but that's just one of the many catch 22s of being a human. The fact that you repeat the same argument to me and not answer my questions, is not really your fault either but both sides have no right to insult each other when they can't even answer a simple question concerning ones use of imagination without using facts. A sad day indeed when people need facts to use their imagination.
QUOTE: In concern with the U.S Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I find some interesting language that to me sounds like a loop-hole. Yes there is the whole rights concerning search and seizure in the 6th Amendment and there is some more doctrine to be read in the 9th but I found something very interesting about it all (other than the fact that it keeps refering to the 9 states). Article 4, Section 3 ------------------------------ "The congress shall have power to dispose of and make needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this constitution shall be constructed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state." Now than....let's see what that could mean. Well; that could be interpreted as that the Congress has every right to tell the railroads what to do because the land that the railroads have built on, belongs to the United States. Amtrak also belongs to the United States. According to that (correct me if I am wrong), the other amendments have no precedent over Article 4, Section 3. If it does, than Article 4, Section 3 of the Constitution and Amendment 9 of the Bill of Rights is either confusing to me or is in contrary to each other. Correct me if I'm wrong but Amendment 4 of the Bill of Rights sound more like the protection of citizens from unjust police search and seizure in the Criminal Law sense. I don't see anything at the moment that would lead me to conclude that being the case involving government seizing assets on "their" property.(Government property law?) What I find interesting also is that there have been other additions and even retractions to the constitution (ie prohibition). That would lead me to conclude that any particular law only exists if the people don't vote to change it or create it in the first place. Nothing is trully doctrine when it comes to the law and even religion is not immune. Look at the amount of times the bible has been rewritin and how many religious hybrids have spawned from the Roman Catholic Church. Constitutional changes take place all the time because the original amendments maybe too old and irrelavent to modern-day or is more bother than good (prohibition caused a surge in gangsterism). Look at some of the older countries in Europe that have had to redo their constitution because it was too old to make sense for the modern society. I would also point out that the constitution is not always doctrine because there have been incidents that have shown to be contrary also. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't witches still burned or hanged? Look at the linchings in the south and the government doing nothing to protect the blacks and give them their due process; wasn't it T.Roosevelt who said that a good linching was rather good? Granted that the system isn't perfect ( the Canadian system isn't) but you can't really say that it can't be done because it is unconstitutional when very few people kick up hell to defend their own rights as free citizens-the government doesn't listen, but you still vote in the same kind of people to run the country (do you see where I'm going here?). Incidently, Theodore Roosevelt had concerns with the railroads then (Trust-Buster)
QUOTE: Maybe it's just me being a composer and all. The whole nature of that business is theory than law-(the theory it is a good piece of music and law nobody likes it). Mozart was no exception but I the thing that I find interesting, even though Vienna didn't appreciate some of his ideas, the majority of the people now all over the world, think otherwise. That's another thing I need to talk about (figures). I am constantly told that where is the figures or proof to back it up? The answer is I don't because it is a theory and it is largely philosophical in nature. There are many scientific theories I can think of like the Theories of Niels Bohr that have been proven wrong later on in life but was law than. Also, what is infinity? I saw the answer that involved infinity but was so confusing, you would be better off taking the mathematician's word for it. I could give nice long and boring figures about it but would you care after awhile? The forum is supposed to be fun and socialable. As I'm not being payed to research and type out the whole thing, the other forum members are not being payed to read the whole boring thing. If I start doing this, I won't get my point across because the other forum members will fall asleep or just skim through and might miss something important.
QUOTE: Bottom line is this... It is not necessary to be insulting to get your message across in the forum. Out in the real world where people can get hurt or killed by someone's stupidity; yes. But this is the forum. No one is going to get injured or killed by someone's remarks that you may find dopey. A philosopher said "the clothes may make a gentleman but it is the manners that make a man". Andrew
QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod If you are a fan of philosophy, you should be aware of Immanuel Kant's reformulation of the 'golden rule' -- if not, I advise that you find it, read it, understand its context, and perhaps decide to live by it. Depending on who translates it, it runs along the lines of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you by a universal rule that applied to everyone equally" Andrew, you should not be proud of being 'cruel and cold as the devil' at any time, least of all in the same forums you complain contain people acting cruelly and coldly toward you...
QUOTE: What is there to not understand? Can't you use any logic and imagination to find out what I'm saying? I re-read it to make sure it was clear as a bell and it is.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Dave, Wouldn't the opposite also apply? If, after years of doing this for a living, and seeing first hand what will, and will not work in a actual railroad enviroment, I explain that a concept, although workable on paper and in theory, can not be made to work in real life without tremendous expense, shouldnt that carry as much weight as the proponent of the concept seems to demand for his idea? Myself, and several other have over and over explained that the powers junctionfan seems to belive our goverment has do not exsist. We have repeatedly asked him to review his facts, and on several occasions, overmod has gently nudged him to gather hard facts and figures, to no avail. All attempts at getting him to see our side seem to result in his getting upset that we do not seem to want to jump on his bandwagon, impeach our government, create radical change, and "make it work", when in fact, combined, we may have over a century of railroading experience among us, and for the most part, we have seen most everything, and when we ask for hard facts, we want hard facts, not complaints that we are being mean, nor demands we change our viewpoint without actual figures showing we are incorrect. Thick skin is a necessary accesory out here. He states he welcomes debate, but whenever anyone debates with him, he resorts to accusing his opponent of being mean and insulting. True, but he seems more intent on making his opponent play nice, and respect his concept, instead of defending his position/concept, and providing facts to base his position on. No one here has to respect his ideas and concepts, until he puts on a pair of workboots and gloves, and starts tieing hand brakes and throwing switches. Although being a armchair railroader might be fun, doing it for real, and a living, is even better, and more educating. So far, I have seen no hard fact and figures for the idea, despite repeated request from several members for such information. I noticed in your post you used the phrase "it might work, if only someone would let it" . Thats a large part of the conflict... You dont let things happen at a railroad, you make them happen. There is no "might work" in our world, it either does, or does not work, there is no might... Out here, might work and maybe are phrases and words that get people hurt, gets trains derailed and engineers dead. Cars are either in the clean, or not, and you cant take the chance that they "might be", you have to be sure. Yup, my two cents worth is based on a personal bias and personal experience, for me its not a objective experience, its a completely subjective deal. I do this for a living, not a hobby or a excersise in railroad theory, but as a daily grind job. As soon as Andrew, and a few others, come switching with me for one day, things will look quite different to them, trust me. And you may want to re-read his postings, most of which include reference to our industry and our railroaders being stupid, dumd, ect....so chase the insults down to their source, you know the quoat, "before removing the mote in thy neighbors eye, attend to the beam in thy own"? You might also think about the fact that LC, me, Mark H, CSX and a host of others all have been there, done that, and got the tee shirt to show it, which, out here, counts a lot more than the sheepskin on the wall. And I might add, quite a few of the above mentioned have a several of those too, along with the tee shirts. This aint rocket science, its railroading..real simple. Ed
23 17 46 11
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES. No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate! some of what you mentioned has been discused...and has been showen that it WONT WORK.... its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject...its more a matter of wanting it killed becoues stupid people insist on beating a dead horse mentality... people that think they have all the anwswers and think they have every angle covered keep forgetting the major point ....REALITY!!!! thier ideas and ways of thinking might sound great on paper..but in the REAL WORLD (REALITY) they have been tried and have failed..or have already been proposed and have failed befor they ever got off the drawing board.... but to keep trying to attack it from all angles..only to have the ideas shot down..time and time agin...gets old... thats the point here... one can only tell someone so many times befor they get POed and just tell you to shove it and drop the idea... csx engineer .......blah blah blah blah blah blah was discussed blah blah blah......blah blah blah WONT WORK blah blah........blah blah blah REALITY (sic)!!!! blah blah blah blah been tried blah blah blah blah blah ideas shot down blah blah blah........ blah blah blah........ gets old gets POed blah blah blah shove it.... Is that the gist? The question I have is if these topics get you all riled, why not just ignore them? You can only have a conversation so far before some element of insecurity takes hold and causes a blow up. I think Junction Fan's whole point is that you don't need to be insulting, and if you only have limited information or a total reliance on a personal bias to explain a view, then you have to expect a proponent of that view to ask for a more detailed reason for your opposition to that view. Just constantly saying IT WONT WORK when common sense, theoretical constructs, number crunching, and the desire to tackle a percieved problem head on all say that IT JUST MIGHT WORK if only someone will let it work, or at least let it evolve into a workable solution to some degree, is not providing what should be demanded in discussing these topics, which is to exhaust all possibilities before someone's idea is dismissed. Your two cents worth are certainly taken into consideration, but beyond that you really should defer to a larger body of knowledge rather than making yourself judge and jury and pronouncing sentence. Otherwise, you may just end up suppressing someone's idea that might someday make a huge improvement to some sector of the entire railroading genre.
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES. No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate! some of what you mentioned has been discused...and has been showen that it WONT WORK.... its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject...its more a matter of wanting it killed becoues stupid people insist on beating a dead horse mentality... people that think they have all the anwswers and think they have every angle covered keep forgetting the major point ....REALITY!!!! thier ideas and ways of thinking might sound great on paper..but in the REAL WORLD (REALITY) they have been tried and have failed..or have already been proposed and have failed befor they ever got off the drawing board.... but to keep trying to attack it from all angles..only to have the ideas shot down..time and time agin...gets old... thats the point here... one can only tell someone so many times befor they get POed and just tell you to shove it and drop the idea... csx engineer
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES. No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate!
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