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Is it necessary to be insulting in order to get your message across?

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Is it necessary to be insulting in order to get your message across?
Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, September 18, 2004 2:49 PM
I am getting really fed up with folk belittling other forum members because their views differ from their own. Thease people are taking the joy out of the forum for others including myself. If people aren't insulting people about their age or where they work, they are even attacking other peoples countries.

I am really tired of being told about my spelling mistakes and grammar mistakes that I make. Who really cares? If you are that wrapped up about that, than you likely have missed the point or you are just intentionally trying to be confrontational.

I wish folk would not be so damn mean about the way they say things. I myself respect other peoples opinions until the attacks come in. I really didn't think that I would have to start this thread but maybe Mr.Bergstrom and others around here should point out to thease certain members that this forum is for fun and not to be so insulting to other forum members.

I'm sorry I had to say this but it's time that people started standing up against the kind of bulling I'm starting to see.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:37 PM
I have to agree with you Mark, 100%. I hope that some day we can meet in Sacramento at the next CSRM Railfair.
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Posted by JoeKoh on Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:57 PM
Andrew
I try to help as much as I can.Most people on this forum do. dont let a couple bad apples ruin the forums for you.
stay safe
Joe

Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").

 

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:02 PM
You speeled THESE wong
Randy
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:24 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

You speeled THESE wong
Randy


Randy-

You deserve a fourth star, just for that...

BTW, what is "bulling" anyhow? Sounds like a good sandhouse session...

LC
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:52 PM
well ....point blank...yes..sometimes you have to..... its kinda like a form of braking someone down that is to stuburn to realize they are WRONG....

and as far as spelling issues... you dont see me complaing about people correcting mine...and personaly ..i dont realy give a crap if someone dose correct or critisise me or my spelling... becouse the things i say are the truth...
csx engineer
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 5:04 PM
Andrew-

1. I suggest you carefully review what Mark Hemphill has said.

2. You won't earn my respect, or that of other railroaders by complaining about our posts, especially when those posts take issue with your ill thought schemes.

3. Spelling, punctuation and usage are all important, especially in a forum that relies upon written medium. I cringe whenever I miss a typo, although it happens more here than I would like.

4. Perhaps if you gave some more thought and research to your posts before suggesting extreme remedies such as government intervention and taking of private property you would get a better response. Please note that you have suggested these same remedies repeatedly in different threads despite numerous explanations by many on the Board.

5. He who lives in a glass house should not cast the first stone, was what I was taught.

LC
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Posted by morseman on Saturday, September 18, 2004 5:19 PM
to JUNCTIONFAN: As a new member to the forum I too notice your odd spelling errors. I would be the last one to critisize you as I also make my share. I enjoy your insightful views and have learned a great deal from reading your comments. I too am a proud Canadian and appreciate your wealth of knowledge both of railroads in general and of the Canadian political scene. Keep up the good work.. PS DId I spell critisize right ????????????
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 6:22 PM
Junctionfan...
Permit me to say that this type of thing is part of forum boards in general. I belong to a few, including the Straight Razor Place where we all sit around and talk about collecting, shaving with and maintaining our straight razors. Politics pop up, guns pop up, personalities flare up, and then there is the apology post. Sometimes folks just have to vent when by themselves with their computer.
Gittin' yer chain pulled is also part of railroading. I can show you my scars.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 6:53 PM
Andrew: ever concidered being more diligent about how you feel? For example: Next personm who complains or laughs at me, just simply won't wake up tommorow, period.

People who argue over spelling know they can't compete with your argument so they must compete another way, the classic.. oh, can't beat that.. so i'll be a basterd about how he spelt stuff

it's happened to me more then a few times; And wathc out Many railroaders, NOT INCLUDING myself get bull headed about the Job they do, you know who "HINT, HINT" and they feel compeled that they are going to teach you somehting just because they've been around longer- Trust me you have to be like a red squirrel- they are bigger then you, but you can beat them- jsut run and don't look back- ever

When I first started working on the AMT's, i had loud mouth engineers- who thought they've been there 67 years and were going to teach me the world in a sarcastic rude manor- but they were too preocupied, teaching me my job, they forogt to do theres, heres an example-
an engineer was reading me the book in an idioc way, "bull headed" as i call it- Now i know my Rules like the back of my hand- so here he was clammering on, while passing a yellow signal- i waited five secondes then pulled them emergency break- AS I AM instructed to do.

Did that 3 times in one run- they guy shut up, and i taught him a lesson in the end- do your job, i'll do mine.

get what i'm trying to say?
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:16 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Andrew: ever concidered being more diligent about how you feel? For example: Next personm who complains or laughs at me, just simply won't wake up tommorow, period.

People who argue over spelling know they can't compete with your argument so they must compete another way, the classic.. oh, can't beat that.. so i'll be a basterd about how he spelt stuff

it's happened to me more then a few times; And wathc out Many railroaders, NOT INCLUDING myself get bull headed about the Job they do, you know who "HINT, HINT" and they feel compeled that they are going to teach you somehting just because they've been around longer- Trust me you have to be like a red squirrel- they are bigger then you, but you can beat them- jsut run and don't look back- ever

When I first started working on the AMT's, i had loud mouth engineers- who thought they've been there 67 years and were going to teach me the world in a sarcastic rude manor- but they were too preocupied, teaching me my job, they forogt to do theres, heres an example-
an engineer was reading me the book in an idioc way, "bull headed" as i call it- Now i know my Rules like the back of my hand- so here he was clammering on, while passing a yellow signal- i waited five secondes then pulled them emergency break- AS I AM instructed to do.

Did that 3 times in one run- they guy shut up, and i taught him a lesson in the end- do your job, i'll do mine.

get what i'm trying to say?
who is "hint hint"?
csx engineer
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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:35 PM
Sometimes you have to make certain that the angry glare you see in the other person's eyes isn't a reflection....

As several have said, grammar and spelling ARE important. I spent a number of years of my life learning to properly express myself, as did pretty much everyone here. When I see some of the fractures of the English language that occur here from time to time, I wonder what that person's resume looks like (or will look like). I hope someone proofreads it, or they'll never stand a chance at getting a job.

Some people earn the right to be less than perfect, like CSX - Just as he says, he tells the truth. No profound pronouncements, no wild schemes, just plain railroading from the horses mouth. He has our respect.

If there is one thing I've learned in life, and had reinforced here, it's that there are very few new ideas. Most if it has been done before. You may have what you think is the greatest idea ever, but there are enough years of experience here to give you an objective assessment of your concept and fill you in on pertinent history. And sometimes that assessment is indeed ROFL.

So - Your participation here is most welcome. Just remember what everyone has essentially said - think first, write second, read it again before you hit submit. Be willing to accept what others say about your contribution. And be willing to rethink what you've said. Stubbornly standing by a position while dismissing (or ignoring) all other input won't win you many friends.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:36 PM
Andrew,

Hope this helps....There is nothing you can say to me that will make me mad....only I have final control over that aspect of my character. The same can be said of you,..I am sure.

The web is a big place, and is full of all kinds of people. I've been around it for a long time, and I can tell you that the type of person who readilly resorts to insults, especially in debate,...usually isn't very bright, and often resorts to the technique when their intellect is near exhaustion.

If ever there was a valid instance in saying 'consider the source', this would be one. Typically the fountains of insults tend to erupt when folks run out of cognizant argument, but are too stupid to simply shut up.

I take it from your post, that the insults really bother you. If such is the case, by far the most effective way to shut them down is to simply ignore them. Because usually half the "fun" enjoyed by an insult artist comes from their ability to get under your skin, and get you "going"....And absent that, there is no fun in it.

I'm a little different, I suppose, because the insults themselves don't make me mad, rather I just get irritated with the prospect of the party spewing the insults, enjoying themselves just a little too much. You know? fooling themselves that they might be clever?

Being the hard headed *** that I am, once such a person has drawn first blood, I'm not above returning the favor in effort to burst their little bubble.... in the fine spirit of "one-upsmanship" .but that's just me.... Your best bet, if it really bothers you, is to simply ignore them, and spoil all their fun....
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Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

Andrew,

Hope this helps....There is nothing you can say to me that will make me mad....only I have final control over that aspect of my character. The same can be said of you,..I am sure.

The web is a big place, and is full of all kinds of people. I've been around it for a long time, and I can tell you that the type of person who readilly resorts to insults, especially in debate,...usually isn't very bright, and often resorts to the technique when their intellect is near exhaustion.

If ever there was a valid instance in saying 'consider the source', this would be one. Typically the fountains of insults tend to erupt when folks run out of cognizant argument, but are too stupid to simply shut up.

I take it from your post, that the insults really bother you. If such is the case, by far the most effective way to shut them down is to simply ignore them. Because usually half the "fun" enjoyed by an insult artist comes from their ability to get under your skin, and get you "going"....And absent that, there is no fun in it.

I'm a little different, I suppose, because the insults themselves don't make me mad, rather I just get irritated with the prospect of the party spewing the insults, enjoying themselves just a little too much. You know? fooling themselves that they might be clever?

Being the hard headed *** that I am, once such a person has drawn first blood, I'm not above returning the favor in effort to burst their little bubble.... in the fine spirit of "one-upsmanship" .but that's just me.... Your best bet, if it really bothers you, is to simply ignore them, and spoil all their fun....


I guess you are right there.

I was brought up that you should treat others the way you would want to be treated and if you don't have anything nice to say to someone than you shouldn't say anything at all.

I'm trying to learn from people and if I don't understand, I keep on asking until I do. Did it in school with some subjects because if I didn't than my alternative was to fail. I don't recall any of my teachers insulting me for doing it either. There are those who have the knowledge but it's hard to listen to someone's response if one sentence is the learning part and the other sentence is an insult-the learning process has effectively been spoiled and that's unfortunate.
Andrew
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 9:56 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

Andrew,

Hope this helps....There is nothing you can say to me that will make me mad....only I have final control over that aspect of my character. The same can be said of you,..I am sure.

The web is a big place, and is full of all kinds of people. I've been around it for a long time, and I can tell you that the type of person who readilly resorts to insults, especially in debate,...usually isn't very bright, and often resorts to the technique when their intellect is near exhaustion.

If ever there was a valid instance in saying 'consider the source', this would be one. Typically the fountains of insults tend to erupt when folks run out of cognizant argument, but are too stupid to simply shut up.

I take it from your post, that the insults really bother you. If such is the case, by far the most effective way to shut them down is to simply ignore them. Because usually half the "fun" enjoyed by an insult artist comes from their ability to get under your skin, and get you "going"....And absent that, there is no fun in it.

I'm a little different, I suppose, because the insults themselves don't make me mad, rather I just get irritated with the prospect of the party spewing the insults, enjoying themselves just a little too much. You know? fooling themselves that they might be clever?

Being the hard headed *** that I am, once such a person has drawn first blood, I'm not above returning the favor in effort to burst their little bubble.... in the fine spirit of "one-upsmanship" .but that's just me.... Your best bet, if it really bothers you, is to simply ignore them, and spoil all their fun....


I guess you are right there.

I was brought up that you should treat others the way you would want to be treated and if you don't have anything nice to say to someone than you shouldn't say anything at all.

I'm trying to learn from people and if I don't understand, I keep on asking until I do. Did it in school with some subjects because if I didn't than my alternative was to fail. I don't recall any of my teachers insulting me for doing it either. There are those who have the knowledge but it's hard to listen to someone's response if one sentence is the learning part and the other sentence is an insult-the learning process has effectively been spoiled and that's unfortunate.


Andrew-

You just kill me...FOFLMAO...

Need a little more cheese with that whine??

How 'bout if we just get back to real railroads...

LC
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 18, 2004 11:36 PM
Blankety-Blank THIS, blankety-blank dash-dash cuss-cuss E-Flat Doubleclutchin' blankety blanks! You know who you ^*##@&(+*% are!

There! I feel much better now!

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

And thanks to the late, great Brother Dave Gardner, maybe the funniest man that ever lived.

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Posted by MP57313 on Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:06 AM
Andrew,
One does not need to be insulting to get one's point across. I usually do not insult people on purpose (with the exception of one, uh, "drifter" and even then it was rather mild).
And if I correct someone's grammar here and there does not mean I miss their main point. (I get paid to write and edit memos and prepare presentations for my employer).
I am not offended if someone corrects a statement I make--if anything it shows they are reading my post/response.

MP

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:41 AM
There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES.

No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate!
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Sunday, September 19, 2004 3:22 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES.

No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate!
some of what you mentioned has been discused...and has been showen that it WONT WORK.... its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject...its more a matter of wanting it killed becoues stupid people insist on beating a dead horse mentality... people that think they have all the anwswers and think they have every angle covered keep forgetting the major point ....REALITY!!!! thier ideas and ways of thinking might sound great on paper..but in the REAL WORLD (REALITY) they have been tried and have failed..or have already been proposed and have failed befor they ever got off the drawing board.... but to keep trying to attack it from all angles..only to have the ideas shot down..time and time agin...gets old... thats the point here... one can only tell someone so many times befor they get POed and just tell you to shove it and drop the idea...
csx engineer
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Posted by Junctionfan on Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:46 AM
If you don't like it, you too don't have to respond. Rather than coming across as a jerk, wouldn't be more diplomatic to hold your tongue from the insults. It's a good thing you don't work for the U.N otherwise WWIII would have happened a long time ago with that attitude.

For those who want to trade insults, I will try to ignore. HOWEVER....I may be 25, but I have a really dark streak in me that comes out once in a while and if you really want to do verbal abuse with other people in the forum, you may find that I can be even more cruel and cold than the devil. I'm not proud of it but I will not take people's crap just because they think they can talk to me however way they think they can. I am nobody's fool. Either talk to me in a civl tongue or just shut the hell up. It makes no difference to me what you do for a living; a jerk is a jerk whatever hat he or she has on. I slept on this last night and the one thing that jumped out was why should I tolerate people insults day after day? I haven't before so why should I start now?

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 19, 2004 10:14 AM
A long time ago on the Milwaukee- Chicago Turbootrains we had technicians riding with us to care for, and trouble-shoot the units. One day the old-head engineer kept playing with the throttle and over-reving the engine. The technician, from the manufacturer in France, warned the engineer to not do that. The old head barked at the tech,"I'm the engineer!" The tech replied, "Here you are the engineer. In my country they wouldn't even let you run a broom."
People get mad, they're invisible, and they, like me type a little too fast to check for spelling or grammar mistakes. But we always feel better afterward. Just enjoy the board.
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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:39 PM
Maybe the guy in the Herodotus story will be right, and we'll hear singing... out of both ends, perhaps?
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Posted by broncoman on Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:41 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

If you don't like it, you too don't have to respond. Rather than coming across as a jerk, wouldn't be more diplomatic to hold your tongue from the insults. It's a good thing you don't work for the U.N otherwise WWIII would have happened a long time ago with that attitude.

For those who want to trade insults, I will try to ignore. HOWEVER....I may be 25, but I have a really dark streak in me that comes out once in a while and if you really want to do verbal abuse with other people in the forum, you may find that I can be even more cruel and cold than the devil. I'm not proud of it but I will not take people's crap just because they think they can talk to me however way they think they can. I am nobody's fool. Either talk to me in a civl tongue or just shut the hell up. It makes no difference to me what you do for a living; a jerk is a jerk whatever hat he or she has on. I slept on this last night and the one thing that jumped out was why should I tolerate people insults day after day? I haven't before so why should I start now?




I am wondering since you are the one who started this post, where did this come from. Its tough to discern in this day and age when one says this, what they are capable of. I can understand that its tough to take a dressing down from someone especially when they are wrong or a little more ignorant than you but resorting to that kind of expression just leads the other people on this board to not want to carry on an exchange in the event of what response they may receive. I am sure you didn't mean it in this way but its hard to know. I am sure some people in certain areas(i.e. New York, Colombine) may have feelings about that sort of thing.
This is always one of the most interesting forums due to the mix of people. I would imagine its the toughest on those who haven't worked in a occupation where a demeaning by a boss, mentor, journeyman, etc. hasn't happened to them. In many cases as Mark pointed out this is they way many of us in these professions learned concepts really fast. In some cases when lives were/are literally on the line this becomes necessary. This becomes a learned behavior and unfortunately this carries over into other realms i.e. this forum.
Sorry I'll get off the soapbox now. [soapbox]
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Posted by Junctionfan on Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:50 PM
That would be my temper getting the best of me and basically telling the select few to be nice and civil or maybe I will just return the insult with another insult. I'm not afraid to tell someone off if they deserve it; I just hate to resort to it.
Andrew
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:08 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES.

No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate!
some of what you mentioned has been discused...and has been showen that it WONT WORK.... its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject...its more a matter of wanting it killed becoues stupid people insist on beating a dead horse mentality... people that think they have all the anwswers and think they have every angle covered keep forgetting the major point ....REALITY!!!! thier ideas and ways of thinking might sound great on paper..but in the REAL WORLD (REALITY) they have been tried and have failed..or have already been proposed and have failed befor they ever got off the drawing board.... but to keep trying to attack it from all angles..only to have the ideas shot down..time and time agin...gets old... thats the point here... one can only tell someone so many times befor they get POed and just tell you to shove it and drop the idea...
csx engineer


.......blah blah blah blah blah blah was discussed blah blah blah......blah blah blah WONT WORK blah blah........blah blah blah REALITY (sic)!!!! blah blah blah blah been tried blah blah blah blah blah ideas shot down blah blah blah........ blah blah blah........ gets old gets POed blah blah blah shove it....

Is that the gist?

The question I have is if these topics get you all riled, why not just ignore them? You can only have a conversation so far before some element of insecurity takes hold and causes a blow up. I think Junction Fan's whole point is that you don't need to be insulting, and if you only have limited information or a total reliance on a personal bias to explain a view, then you have to expect a proponent of that view to ask for a more detailed reason for your opposition to that view. Just constantly saying IT WONT WORK when common sense, theoretical constructs, number crunching, and the desire to tackle a percieved problem head on all say that IT JUST MIGHT WORK if only someone will let it work, or at least let it evolve into a workable solution to some degree, is not providing what should be demanded in discussing these topics, which is to exhaust all possibilities before someone's idea is dismissed. Your two cents worth are certainly taken into consideration, but beyond that you really should defer to a larger body of knowledge rather than making yourself judge and jury and pronouncing sentence. Otherwise, you may just end up suppressing someone's idea that might someday make a huge improvement to some sector of the entire railroading genre.
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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:09 PM
In a sense, yes. I was referring to the original story -- it comes in various flavors down through history -- about the fellow who had committed some capital offense or other against an emperor, and was told he'd be pardoned if he could teach a favorite horse to sing in a year. The man went away cheerful -- to the astonishment of his colleagues -- and said the following (paraphrased):

Many things may happen in a year. The horse might die. I might die. The Emperor might die. And who knows, the horse may learn to sing...
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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:11 PM
Mark, I think the odds just went through the roof....

23 17 46 11

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:19 PM
Dave -- let me say this gently.

When csxengineer and the other railroaders say 'it won't work', it's both because they can see problems that exist in their experience and aren't being solved, and because their experience tells them that a given theoretical approach isn't right, or isn't optimal in the real world although with a restricted or theoretical set of conditions or evaluations it may seem good.

While they may be crotchety in response, it's a good idea to separate out the valuable criteria of criticism, and make them your own, and adopt a 'sticks and stones' approach toward what you may not like. At least part of the crotchetiness comes from seeing the same old things crop up, in the same old forms, with the same old reasons why it won't work, too many times. Some people tend to lose patience when it's the same person that keeps doing that.
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Sunday, September 19, 2004 4:57 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

There does seem to be a collection of some here who get uncomfortable with certain topics being bandied about, maybe because in the course of free discussion someone somewhere might actually come across a solution to a problem and then the whole apple cart is turned over, e.g. change in the status quo can cause stress. It doesn't matter what the subject is: Changes to Amtrak (and all the subtopics e.g. M & E, LD's vs NEC, subsidies, etc), open access, competitive access, re-regulation, complete deregulation, mergers, break ups of existing merged companies, time saving innovations, fuel saving innovations, even off topic subjects like increasing trucks' GVW, all these have in common at least one person on this forum who wishes the topic would just go away. And because they disagree with you, they will say you are WRONG SO WE SHOULD JUST KILL THE TOPIC, or IT WAS TRIED BY SOME DOOMED RAILROAD LIKE THE ROCK ISLAND A FEW YEARS BACK AND IT DIDN'T WORK THEN SO IT WON'T WORK NOW, or IT DOESN'T WORK IN GREAT BRITAIN SO THAT PROVES IT WON'T WORK HERE, or EVERYONE WHO SAYS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TRAVELERS RIDE AMTRAK ARE LIARS AND ARE ONLY "SO-CALLED RAILFANS" NOT REAL RAILFANS, or my favorite IF YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF BREAKING UP THE CURRENT RAIL OLIGARCHY YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A COMMUNIST IN CAPITALIST'S CLOTHES.

No problem was ever solved by repressing debate, so what ever you do don't let the naysayers intimidate you. If need be go back and do some fact checking from time to time to make sure your arguments are on the right track, but otherwise keep up the lively debate!
some of what you mentioned has been discused...and has been showen that it WONT WORK.... its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject...its more a matter of wanting it killed becoues stupid people insist on beating a dead horse mentality... people that think they have all the anwswers and think they have every angle covered keep forgetting the major point ....REALITY!!!! thier ideas and ways of thinking might sound great on paper..but in the REAL WORLD (REALITY) they have been tried and have failed..or have already been proposed and have failed befor they ever got off the drawing board.... but to keep trying to attack it from all angles..only to have the ideas shot down..time and time agin...gets old... thats the point here... one can only tell someone so many times befor they get POed and just tell you to shove it and drop the idea...
csx engineer


.......blah blah blah blah blah blah was discussed blah blah blah......blah blah blah WONT WORK blah blah........blah blah blah REALITY (sic)!!!! blah blah blah blah been tried blah blah blah blah blah ideas shot down blah blah blah........ blah blah blah........ gets old gets POed blah blah blah shove it....

Is that the gist?

The question I have is if these topics get you all riled, why not just ignore them? You can only have a conversation so far before some element of insecurity takes hold and causes a blow up. I think Junction Fan's whole point is that you don't need to be insulting, and if you only have limited information or a total reliance on a personal bias to explain a view, then you have to expect a proponent of that view to ask for a more detailed reason for your opposition to that view. Just constantly saying IT WONT WORK when common sense, theoretical constructs, number crunching, and the desire to tackle a percieved problem head on all say that IT JUST MIGHT WORK if only someone will let it work, or at least let it evolve into a workable solution to some degree, is not providing what should be demanded in discussing these topics, which is to exhaust all possibilities before someone's idea is dismissed. Your two cents worth are certainly taken into consideration, but beyond that you really should defer to a larger body of knowledge rather than making yourself judge and jury and pronouncing sentence. Otherwise, you may just end up suppressing someone's idea that might someday make a huge improvement to some sector of the entire railroading genre.
the problems that you seem to want to solve are problems that you..or someone that is on the outside of the railroading industry sees as a "problem" when in fact its not... and have a soltion to the "problem" the dosnt exist....
i have no dought that someday someone will come across an idea that will improve the industry... but when an idea is shown that no matter how great it sounds on paper has no practial use in the real world of rail roading...case in point was the thread on putting multipule crews on trains to eliminate crew changes to save time.... no matter how many times the idea was shown to have major flaws...some people still think that it is posable...but a few think that they could prove that it could be done...dispite the mounting information that shows it wasnt fesable in real world railroading....it sounded like a great idea..but facts show its not posable...
one can only civily discuse something for so long and not make any headway to get the person to see the other side of the coin...befor the listin you idiot ..what part of its not possable dont you get? comes out....
some people on here might be a bit better at suger coating to help get a point across..but im not one of them...i am point blank...and im not going to change....and if it takes getting a little hot under the collor to help make my point..then so be it....
i have real world railroad experiance under my belt... which is something that some of the people that propose idiotic and down right impractial ideas to "help" the rail industry dont have...
so to give a little pointer to avoid confrentation in the futur regarding ideas to help the railroads.....keep in mind this one rule about the railroads
they want to elimiate as expence from the bottom line as possable...meaning.. smaller crews... technoligy to replace crews... and do more with less crews...
now if someones idea can show that the rule is met in a real cost saveings matter..then the railroads might look at your idea as a possable one to use...
bottom line is the cash...if its going to cost money more money in the long run...they are not going to use it...
csx engineer
"I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 19, 2004 9:21 PM
Mark,
I used my Turbostory to relate an insulting situation on the railroad as an illustration of things that are said. I didn't think the techs remarks were necessary. I just thought they were downright funny. Iron Mike had it coming. He also said that trainmen's contracts were bad. He said,"Trainmen don't want money, they want miles."
Here's another Turbostory for bedtime. On the LaCrosse division we had an engineer who had been a cowboy in Idaho. He was one of the funniest people I ever worked with on the railroad. We came through Oconomowoc one morning on a road freight. We were moving slowly due to a restricting signal. As we clanked across street crossings in town he would put his jacket on backwards, flip his hat around, hang way out of the cab, flap his arms and roar. All the car horns would start blaring. One day, on a day off, the Wisconsin Division caller called him to be the fireman on a Turbotrain to Chicago. "Worst trip I ever was on," he told me. "That kazoo (he meant Astazue, but was referring to the deadman alerter) kept going off, and the train kept dying." "Later on that goofy French technician asked me what I thought of their train." "I told him, "You folks should've stuck to makin' rubbers 'cause this ain't no locomotive!" That one had me soaking wet for 3 days.
Good night kids,
Mitch

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