Is it necessary to be insulting in order to get your message across?

[jeaton]

junctionfan

What you are up against is a group of people with years of knowledge about the subject of your ideas and in many cases it is a matter of "been their, done that". That is not to say something that you thought of has actually been tried, but that somebody or some group paid to think of, evaluate, recommend and implement an idea, has decided that something like the idea you propose will not fly. Some of the members of this forum might have actually been involved in this kind of planning, many more probably just know about these kinds of studies.

I have about 40 more years in business than you, about 15 on railroads, the same time in traffic and logistics management for shippers and another 10 in my own business. I have had lots of ideas. When it was in the area of my job responsibility, I put forth those that seemed to have merit. I must say that most were shot down at some stage of the game, a few, usually modest in scope, made it through the gauntlet and were adopted. I don't remember for sure, but I think there had to be a time or two when a boss came back to me with words to the effect that it was "the dumbest idea that I have ever heard".

It is a little bit different on the forum, because livelihoods-jobs- are not a stake, and everybody is open to having some fun with an off the wall idea. For example, I participated in the discussions about multiple crews on trains, and was included in those whom csxengineer declared as being nuts. Last I checked, my sanity was in pretty good shape, but after the idea was kicked around, the few merits of the plan were way offset by the total impracticality of the plan. Some things might be possible, but if the cost of doing something new is greater than any savings and there is no usefuil service improvement, what is the point? Change for change sake doesn't make more money.

By the way, I disagree with csxengineer on some things, but I won't disrespect his ability or the experience he has on his job, nor will I second guess what his life is like with his occupation. I have never even seen his shoes, let alone walked in them.

Sometimes attitude comes into play. If you throw out an idea, and imply that anybody that does not agree must be really stupid, at best you will just be ignored. If you take the approach that you have an idea, this is your plan, these are the facts and the merits as you see them, any comments, chances are you will get more respectful responses. Euphimistically, you run it up the flagpole. Some will salute, a few might help to pull it higher, others will cut done the pole and burn the flag. You have to be prepared for all kinds of responses.

I am sorry that you were upset about some things that were thrown back at you, but just like real life, playing in the virtual world of forums can require a pretty thick skin. However, unlike real life, you can log off a forum and, if your behavior has been within the law, it is not there anymore. It could be a good training ground.

Your comments back are welcome, either here or my email.

Jay

[edblysard]

Dave,
Wouldn't the opposite also apply?
If, after years of doing this for a living, and seeing first hand what will, and will not work in a actual railroad enviroment, I explain that a concept, although workable on paper and in theory, can not be made to work in real life without tremendous expense, shouldnt that carry as much weight as the proponent of the concept seems to demand for his idea?

Myself, and several other have over and over explained that the powers junctionfan seems to belive our goverment has do not exsist.

We have repeatedly asked him to review his facts, and on several occasions, overmod has gently nudged him to gather hard facts and figures, to no avail.

All attempts at getting him to see our side seem to result in his getting upset that we do not seem to want to jump on his bandwagon, impeach our government, create radical change, and "make it work", when in fact, combined, we may have over a century of railroading experience among us, and for the most part, we have seen most everything, and when we ask for hard facts, we want hard facts, not complaints that we are being mean, nor demands we change our viewpoint without actual figures showing we are incorrect.

Thick skin is a necessary accesory out here.

He states he welcomes debate, but whenever anyone debates with him, he resorts to accusing his opponent of being mean and insulting.

True, but he seems more intent on making his opponent play nice, and respect his concept, instead of defending his position/concept, and providing facts to base his position on.

No one here has to respect his ideas and concepts, until he puts on a pair of workboots and gloves, and starts tieing hand brakes and throwing switches.

Although being a armchair railroader might be fun, doing it for real, and a living, is even better, and more educating.

So far, I have seen no hard fact and figures for the idea, despite repeated request from several members for such information.

I noticed in your post you used the phrase "it might work, if only someone would let it" .

Thats a large part of the conflict...

You dont let things happen at a railroad, you make them happen.

There is no "might work" in our world, it either does, or does not work, there is no might...
Out here, might work and maybe are phrases and words that get people hurt, gets trains derailed and engineers dead.

Cars are either in the clean, or not, and you cant take the chance that they "might be", you have to be sure.

Yup, my two cents worth is based on a personal bias and personal experience, for me its not a objective experience, its a completely subjective deal.

I do this for a living, not a hobby or a excersise in railroad theory, but as a daily grind job.

As soon as Andrew, and a few others, come switching with me for one day, things will look quite different to them, trust me.

And you may want to re-read his postings, most of which include reference to our industry and our railroaders being stupid, dumd, ect....so chase the insults down to their source, you know the quoat, "before removing the mote in thy neighbors eye, attend to the beam in thy own"?

You might also think about the fact that LC, me, Mark H, CSX and a host of others all have been there, done that, and got the tee shirt to show it, which, out here, counts a lot more than the sheepskin on the wall.

And I might add, quite a few of the above mentioned have a several of those too, along with the tee shirts.

This aint rocket science, its railroading..real simple.
Ed

[Randy Stahl]

I'll come switch with you Ed... We can use my S6 !!! A real switch engine, one that loads when you tell it too. See if we can't shake the rust off !
Randy

[dharmon]

He he he,

Sometimes a thread is almost more fun to watch than to participate in......

Okay Andrew, here's the deal.....out and out personal attacks and flaming....not considered to be proper etiquette on the forums....whining about why no one treats you nicely, probably not such good form either....so if the other kids at the playground make fun of you and call you names..perhaps you need to take a look at how you're coming across to them.

So far I haven't seen where anyone has made a blantant personal attack, and believe me we've had a few charmers around here. But you have been they target of a few ....remarks. But by and large folks tend to write the way the speak. Folks who are in a profession such as railroads, military, sailors, firemen, police officers, etc....tend to be a bit curt sometimes in dealing with other....it's a fact of life. They way we talk here, is way toned down from the way we tend to talk at work or we'd get tossed off the forums. But nonetheless, in getting points across in these lines of work, you at times belittle folks because a bit of shaming goes a long way. It's not always the most effective tool, and sometimes it's not the appropriate tool, but it tends to be the first round out of box.

Most of us have to deal daily with young bucks that feel the need to show us what we're doing wrong and how we can do it better. If you want folks to engage you stimulating discussion, and to take what you have to say seriously, then you are going to have to roll with and establish rapport. And that ain't gonna happen if you come across as a whiner. That is as true here as it is in the rest of life. So in short it means thickening the skin a bit and taking what a few of the pros here say to heart. I don't tell them how to run a railroad and hopefully they won't try and tell me how to fly a plane or run my sailors.

I've seen alot of flaming and personal attacks on the forum, and I'll be the one of the first to complain when someone gets beat up for no reason or unjustly so. But if the "vicitim" brings it on themselves or continues to bring it upon themsleves, then they're on their own. Sarcastic replies, my suggestion is to ignore it if you don't like it. If it's an out and out personal attack, then you can either choose to ignore it too or bring it to the attention of someone. But as far as I can tell you haven't come close to being flamed yet.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Dave,
Wouldn't the opposite also apply?
If, after years of doing this for a living, and seeing first hand what will, and will not work in a actual railroad enviroment, I explain that a concept, although workable on paper and in theory, can not be made to work in real life without tremendous expense, shouldnt that carry as much weight as the proponent of the concept seems to demand for his idea?

Myself, and several other have over and over explained that the powers junctionfan seems to belive our goverment has do not exsist.

We have repeatedly asked him to review his facts, and on several occasions, overmod has gently nudged him to gather hard facts and figures, to no avail.

All attempts at getting him to see our side seem to result in his getting upset that we do not seem to want to jump on his bandwagon, impeach our government, create radical change, and "make it work", when in fact, combined, we may have over a century of railroading experience among us, and for the most part, we have seen most everything, and when we ask for hard facts, we want hard facts, not complaints that we are being mean, nor demands we change our viewpoint without actual figures showing we are incorrect.

Thick skin is a necessary accesory out here.

He states he welcomes debate, but whenever anyone debates with him, he resorts to accusing his opponent of being mean and insulting.

True, but he seems more intent on making his opponent play nice, and respect his concept, instead of defending his position/concept, and providing facts to base his position on.

No one here has to respect his ideas and concepts, until he puts on a pair of workboots and gloves, and starts tieing hand brakes and throwing switches.

Although being a armchair railroader might be fun, doing it for real, and a living, is even better, and more educating.

So far, I have seen no hard fact and figures for the idea, despite repeated request from several members for such information.

I noticed in your post you used the phrase "it might work, if only someone would let it" .

Thats a large part of the conflict...

You dont let things happen at a railroad, you make them happen.

There is no "might work" in our world, it either does, or does not work, there is no might...
Out here, might work and maybe are phrases and words that get people hurt, gets trains derailed and engineers dead.

Cars are either in the clean, or not, and you cant take the chance that they "might be", you have to be sure.

Yup, my two cents worth is based on a personal bias and personal experience, for me its not a objective experience, its a completely subjective deal.

I do this for a living, not a hobby or a excersise in railroad theory, but as a daily grind job.

As soon as Andrew, and a few others, come switching with me for one day, things will look quite different to them, trust me.

And you may want to re-read his postings, most of which include reference to our industry and our railroaders being stupid, dumd, ect....so chase the insults down to their source, you know the quoat, "before removing the mote in thy neighbors eye, attend to the beam in thy own"?

You might also think about the fact that LC, me, Mark H, CSX and a host of others all have been there, done that, and got the tee shirt to show it, which, out here, counts a lot more than the sheepskin on the wall.

And I might add, quite a few of the above mentioned have a several of those too, along with the tee shirts.

This aint rocket science, its railroading..real simple.
Ed

all i got to say to that is...well said... i wish i had the laugual skills to express it as well as you did...but then agin...i like being a bit more blunt..lol
csx engineer

[Junctionfan]

Time for me to respond to you all (particularly the bad apples)

Let me be clear on my questioning and continual questioning. I am not disputing facts so much as I am disputing it's logic and wisdom behind them. This is called philosophy. Being that I like philosophy because it is the fundamental way of free and advanced thought in new ideas, why should the world of the railroad be exempt?
Philosophy is described with several meaning including-the study of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge, being and reality; a particular system of philosophical doctrine; the critical evaluation of such fundamental doctrines; the study of the principles for guidance in practical affairs; and a philosophical spirit or attitude.

Thats what I'm doing.

Socrates said that "the unexplained life was not worth living" which meant that if people do not examine and critically evaluate the principles by which they live, they cannot be sure that worth-while principles exist. To me if it is not logical or consistant, than it might not be true.

If you don't like my opinions, fine; but don't think for a moment that they are necessarily wrong because the whole definition of an opinion is that I may not be wrong and there is nothing stubborn about it unless you can provide an undisputable argument involving something concrete like the laws of physics and I still maintain my opinion.

Much of what I have heard for so far, is something that is relatively illogical and inconsistant-I may interpret wrong but that's just one of the many catch 22s of being a human. The fact that you repeat the same argument to me and not answer my questions, is not really your fault either but both sides have no right to insult each other when they can't even answer a simple question concerning ones use of imagination without using facts. A sad day indeed when people need facts to use their imagination.

In concern with the U.S Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I find some interesting language that to me sounds like a loop-hole. Yes there is the whole rights concerning search and seizure in the 6th Amendment and there is some more doctrine to be read in the 9th but I found something very interesting about it all (other than the fact that it keeps refering to the 9 states).

Article 4, Section 3
------------------------------
"The congress shall have power to dispose of and make needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this constitution shall be constructed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state."

Now than....let's see what that could mean. Well; that could be interpreted as that the Congress has every right to tell the railroads what to do because the land that the railroads have built on, belongs to the United States. Amtrak also belongs to the United States. According to that (correct me if I am wrong), the other amendments have no precedent over Article 4, Section 3. If it does, than Article 4, Section 3 of the Constitution and Amendment 9 of the Bill of Rights is either confusing to me or is in contrary to each other.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Amendment 4 of the Bill of Rights sound more like the protection of citizens from unjust police search and seizure in the Criminal Law sense. I don't see anything at the moment that would lead me to conclude that being the case involving government seizing assets on "their" property.(Government property law?)

What I find interesting also is that there have been other additions and even retractions to the constitution (ie prohibition). That would lead me to conclude that any particular law only exists if the people don't vote to change it or create it in the first place. Nothing is trully doctrine when it comes to the law and even religion is not immune. Look at the amount of times the bible has been rewritin and how many religious hybrids have spawned from the Roman Catholic Church. Constitutional changes take place all the time because the original amendments maybe too old and irrelavent to modern-day or is more bother than good (prohibition caused a surge in gangsterism). Look at some of the older countries in Europe that have had to redo their constitution because it was too old to make sense for the modern society.

I would also point out that the constitution is not always doctrine because there have been incidents that have shown to be contrary also. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't witches still burned or hanged? Look at the linchings in the south and the government doing nothing to protect the blacks and give them their due process; wasn't it T.Roosevelt who said that a good linching was rather good? Granted that the system isn't perfect ( the Canadian system isn't) but you can't really say that it can't be done because it is unconstitutional when very few people kick up hell to defend their own rights as free citizens-the government doesn't listen, but you still vote in the same kind of people to run the country (do you see where I'm going here?).

Incidently, Theodore Roosevelt had concerns with the railroads then (Trust-Buster)

Maybe it's just me being a composer and all. The whole nature of that business is theory than law-(the theory it is a good piece of music and law nobody likes it). Mozart was no exception but I the thing that I find interesting, even though Vienna didn't appreciate some of his ideas, the majority of the people now all over the world, think otherwise. That's another thing I need to talk about (figures). I am constantly told that where is the figures or proof to back it up? The answer is I don't because it is a theory and it is largely philosophical in nature. There are many scientific theories I can think of like the Theories of Niels Bohr that have been proven wrong later on in life but was law than. Also, what is infinity? I saw the answer that involved infinity but was so confusing, you would be better off taking the mathematician's word for it. I could give nice long and boring figures about it but would you care after awhile? The forum is supposed to be fun and socialable. As I'm not being payed to research and type out the whole thing, the other forum members are not being payed to read the whole boring thing. If I start doing this, I won't get my point across because the other forum members will fall asleep or just skim through and might miss something important.

Bottom line is this...

It is not necessary to be insulting to get your message across in the forum. Out in the real world where people can get hurt or killed by someone's stupidity; yes. But this is the forum. No one is going to get injured or killed by someone's remarks that you may find dopey. A philosopher said "the clothes may make a gentleman but it is the manners that make a man".

Andrew

[Junctionfan]

What is there to not understand? Can't you use any logic and imagination to find out what I'm saying? I re-read it to make sure it was clear as a bell and it is.

I don't have to name the "bad-apples", they know who they are.

[Junctionfan]

Point well taken...

Have you read it? Do you understand it?

[tree68]

Andrew - let's get a re-write of your post that does not assume that the government owns any of the property on which the railroads are built. While there were some land grants involved in the building of some of the western railroads, the greatest portion of the rail mileage in the US is built on right of ways acquired in exactly the same manner as the property my house was built on. They paid for it.

The government does have the right of eminent domain, but they have to have a reason. And they have to fairly compensate the property owner for what they take - they can't just "take" it.

As for the leadership that gets elected - they do so based on a large number of parameters. The candidate who tells the most people what they want to hear gets the prize. People how don't care about railroads don't care how the candidate feels about trains unless it affects them directly.

Your opinions are not without value. But you must also factor in experience. Just because you feel something is a good idea doesn't mean it will work. The US Patent Office is chock full of wonderful inventions that weren't worth the paper they were drawn on or the materials used to make a model of them. But their creator thought the world of the idea. And has a patent on it. Several people have offered "been there, done that, didn't work" explanations, but you seem to choose to ignore their experience/knowledge.

QUOTE: What is there to not understand? Can't you use any logic and imagination to find out what I'm saying? I re-read it to make sure it was clear as a bell and it is.

Your challenge here is to make it understood by all, not just yourself. In doing so you will either enlighten us with your brilliance or discover the fallacy of your arguments. At present it would appear that few of us are dazzled by your concepts, but several have found fallacies in what you have to say. You want us to listen to what you say - try listening to what we say.

I recall reading somewhere that a definition of insanity was trying the same things over and over, expecting a different result...

[Anonymous]

We need to respect everyones opinion even if it does not agree with our line of thought. Afterall, we live in a very diverse world with many conflicting opinions on every topic. Some topics are like touching the third rail such as religion and politics. Do not even go there. The forum gives all of us the oopportunity to express our views on a subject. By reading alternative views we can all grow a little in knowledge.

A short note to Mark H.: I admit my typing is not letter perfect. Many of my mispellings are the result of fat fingers on the keys. Could you install a form of spell check for the forum. That might remove much of the grief some of us get from the fat finger syndrome.

Cheers,
*** Watkins

[Overmod]

If you are a fan of philosophy, you should be aware of Immanuel Kant's reformulation of the 'golden rule' -- if not, I advise that you find it, read it, understand its context, and perhaps decide to live by it.

Depending on who translates it, it runs along the lines of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you by a universal rule that applied to everyone equally"

Andrew, you should not be proud of being 'cruel and cold as the devil' at any time, least of all in the same forums you complain contain people acting cruelly and coldly toward you...

[SALfan]

Junctionfan -
You get the kind of treatment you give other people. Take a deep breath, go back and reread some of your posts in response to people who put forth valid reasons why some of your ideas wouldn't work, and you will see why some of the responses to your posts are less than diplomatic. I have been guilty of putting some "strongly worded" posts on the board, too, but if I put a post on the board that is vicious, I can't very well whine when someone responds in kind.

You need to realize that you don't know everything about railroading, and be willing to learn from those who know more. I don't know enough about railroading to argue the finer points, although I've been a TRAINS subscriber and diligent reader for 25 years. I read and respect csxengineer's, Mudchicken's and Ed Blysard's (and others') opinions because they are out there in the real world every day, making the trains run. I read and respect Mark Hemphill's opinions because he has been there, and it is obvious from his posts that he has a lot of knowledge AND is a very smart guy.

Finally, respect is something that has to be earned; it isn't your birthright. The folks mentioned above have earned my respect because they actually work in railroading, or have the facts and the logic to deserve it. Nothing wrong with floating outlandish ideas (I do so, frequently), but when someone demonstrates that an idea won't work, don't get petulant and pout and respond with insults. That's the behavior of a 3-year-old, and any respect you might have earned up to that point goes out the window.

[Randy Stahl]

Good god... If you think people on the forums are insulting you should try the morning CN conference call. It really raises eyebrows when you hear the french canadiens trying to communicate with the boys in Memphis or Baton Rouge. The CN managers aren't afraid of hurting your feelings. You ain't seen nothin kid.. It's a ruthless world.
Randy

[Anonymous]

Yeah, Andrew you have to list all the bad apples that really make you angry, let me see:

LC- Your head is so friggin big, your either going to fall over and need firefighter assistance to get up, or your going to have trouble fitting into a locomotive soon- you aint' the best thing since Molson, hate to tell you- don't become one of those Old head "know it alls" who get "righted" every 3 secondes by young wipper snappers like myself

WOW- I do feel better!

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

If you are a fan of philosophy, you should be aware of Immanuel Kant's reformulation of the 'golden rule' -- if not, I advise that you find it, read it, understand its context, and perhaps decide to live by it.

Depending on who translates it, it runs along the lines of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you by a universal rule that applied to everyone equally"

Andrew, you should not be proud of being 'cruel and cold as the devil' at any time, least of all in the same forums you complain contain people acting cruelly and coldly toward you...

I'm not proud of it at all.

I will try to be more understanding. I admit I can be way too ambitious with my tangents about philosophies and how they may or may not relate well enough to the real world.

Normally I wouldn't care if people were talking tra***o me but it kind of bugs me when I don't start it or mean to start it and still get attitude. If you have read some of my earlier post before I had a third star, I made some apologies mostly to Mark because I inadvertantly said something that upset him. I didn't know why it did but it wasn't the point-it bothered him so I did the right thing and apologized. I also did it to Ed because I was too zealous in making my feelings felt and it ended up turning into a really personal attack on my part. ( he said that we Texans have thick skin but I still felt bad about saying what I said).

I really am a great person to be around if you ever meet me in person. I may sound like a pompous, arrogant ***; but I'm really fun to be around. I don't really like to talk formal because than I do sound like I have a stick up my butt. I do ask good questions here and there though.

As far as my spelling and grammar goes, normally I'm not in a ru***o do things but lately everybody in my family has become extra demanding. It doesn't bother me that much because at least it is something worth doing, but I don't always have the time to correct myself until it's too late. That's why sometimes when you read my posts, they are either perfect or grade 1 looking[:D]

I can't promise the world, but I will try to be more sympathetic to your responses.

Thanks for listening

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Who was the person who said

"The "it's against the constitution" crap can only be used so often before that excuse becomes lame."

That is not the way to bring about a reasoned and dispassionate discourse.

Oh, just in case someone hasn't pointed it out yet the correct quote by Socrates is either
"An unexamined life is not worth living" or
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
(must be a problem translating the original Greek)
not "the unexplained life was not worth living." Your version just
happens to come from the ad for a site that sells term papers!

Another example why spelling, punctuation and prooofreading your posts
is important.

Many of us spend a lot of our time trying to "explain" our lives...

The hardest lesson for young people is to learn from their elders. Yeah,
been there, done that. Unless, and until, that lesson is learned they will
keep going back to inventing the wheel before they can make any progress.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Time for me to respond to you all (particularly the bad apples)

Okay, let's cut to the chase, if you have a problem with how a few members are treating you, come out and say who. If it's me, say it. Doesn't mean they or I am going to change, but at least get it out in the open. There's enough folks that have things for certain people running around here that take shots randomly.

QUOTE: Let me be clear on my questioning and continual questioning. I am not disputing facts so much as I am disputing it's logic and wisdom behind them. This is called philosophy. Being that I like philosophy because it is the fundamental way of free and advanced thought in new ideas, why should the world of the railroad be exempt?
Philosophy is described with several meaning including-the study of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge, being and reality; a particular system of philosophical doctrine; the critical evaluation of such fundamental doctrines; the study of the principles for guidance in practical affairs; and a philosophical spirit or attitude.

Thats what I'm doing.

Philosphy is good. It doesn't put food on the table, but good I guess. There are facts, and there is the interpretation of their meanings and causes. You ask questions, the folks here try to answer them or give an opinion. You may not like the answer..which is often costs. Railroads, like any industry do what works, using the most cost effective means to do so. If it doesn't work, it will be discarded. Something may be a great idea, but the costs are too great to justify right now or ever, to achieve an acceptable return. And like any other industry or person, they are going to continue to do or use what works until it doesn't or it breaks.

QUOTE: Socrates said that "the unexplained life was not worth living" which meant that if people do not examine and critically evaluate the principles by which they live, they cannot be sure that worth-while principles exist. To me if it is not logical or consistant, than it might not be true.

Great another dead Greek guy. Just because it is not logical to you doesn't mean it's false either. A penguin is a bird, so it should fly, but it doesn't. Why didn't it's wings develop.....beats me. Not logical, but true.

QUOTE: If you don't like my opinions, fine; but don't think for a moment that they are necessarily wrong because the whole definition of an opinion is that I may not be wrong and there is nothing stubborn about it unless you can provide an undisputable argument involving something concrete like the laws of physics and I still maintain my opinion.

Great, so that means everyone else is entitlted to an opinion too, and we have no obligation to substantiate it. Chances are, no one is going to change your opinions. They may get you to understand the facts, but opinions are just that. I don't like Miracle Whip, can't tell you why. Just don't like it. You are not going to change my opinion no matter how many facts about Miracle Whip you come you with. But I will agree to the fact that it is a disgusting white substance that comes in a jar.

QUOTE: Much of what I have heard for so far, is something that is relatively illogical and inconsistant-I may interpret wrong but that's just one of the many catch 22s of being a human. The fact that you repeat the same argument to me and not answer my questions, is not really your fault either but both sides have no right to insult each other when they can't even answer a simple question concerning ones use of imagination without using facts. A sad day indeed when people need facts to use their imagination.

In your opinion.........illogical in your opinion. The question may have been answered but not to your satisfaction or in agreement with your opinions. Imagination is a personal trait, as personal as one's opinions. Don't belittle someone becasue they ae not gifted with brilliant foresight and a gifted imagination. Those that do seem to end up committing suicide or causing horrific wars.

QUOTE: In concern with the U.S Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I find some interesting language that to me sounds like a loop-hole. Yes there is the whole rights concerning search and seizure in the 6th Amendment and there is some more doctrine to be read in the 9th but I found something very interesting about it all (other than the fact that it keeps refering to the 9 states).

Article 4, Section 3
------------------------------
"The congress shall have power to dispose of and make needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this constitution shall be constructed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state."

Now than....let's see what that could mean. Well; that could be interpreted as that the Congress has every right to tell the railroads what to do because the land that the railroads have built on, belongs to the United States. Amtrak also belongs to the United States. According to that (correct me if I am wrong), the other amendments have no precedent over Article 4, Section 3. If it does, than Article 4, Section 3 of the Constitution and Amendment 9 of the Bill of Rights is either confusing to me or is in contrary to each other.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Amendment 4 of the Bill of Rights sound more like the protection of citizens from unjust police search and seizure in the Criminal Law sense. I don't see anything at the moment that would lead me to conclude that being the case involving government seizing assets on "their" property.(Government property law?)

What I find interesting also is that there have been other additions and even retractions to the constitution (ie prohibition). That would lead me to conclude that any particular law only exists if the people don't vote to change it or create it in the first place. Nothing is trully doctrine when it comes to the law and even religion is not immune. Look at the amount of times the bible has been rewritin and how many religious hybrids have spawned from the Roman Catholic Church. Constitutional changes take place all the time because the original amendments maybe too old and irrelavent to modern-day or is more bother than good (prohibition caused a surge in gangsterism). Look at some of the older countries in Europe that have had to redo their constitution because it was too old to make sense for the modern society.

I would also point out that the constitution is not always doctrine because there have been incidents that have shown to be contrary also. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't witches still burned or hanged? Look at the linchings in the south and the government doing nothing to protect the blacks and give them their due process; wasn't it T.Roosevelt who said that a good linching was rather good? Granted that the system isn't perfect ( the Canadian system isn't) but you can't really say that it can't be done because it is unconstitutional when very few people kick up hell to defend their own rights as free citizens-the government doesn't listen, but you still vote in the same kind of people to run the country (do you see where I'm going here?).

Incidently, Theodore Roosevelt had concerns with the railroads then (Trust-Buster)

The Constitution is a framework which the laws are based upon. And there is a whole industry of lawyers whose job it is to continually re-interpret what the framers had in mind. The basis behind siezure and all that was to prevent a government from siezing property without due and proper compensation....ie the British siezing homes to quarter troops. In the US land is considered private property not the land of the state as in Europe. As for lynchings and stuff......having a law and enforcing a law are two entirely diffierent animals.

QUOTE: Maybe it's just me being a composer and all. The whole nature of that business is theory than law-(the theory it is a good piece of music and law nobody likes it). Mozart was no exception but I the thing that I find interesting, even though Vienna didn't appreciate some of his ideas, the majority of the people now all over the world, think otherwise. That's another thing I need to talk about (figures). I am constantly told that where is the figures or proof to back it up? The answer is I don't because it is a theory and it is largely philosophical in nature. There are many scientific theories I can think of like the Theories of Niels Bohr that have been proven wrong later on in life but was law than. Also, what is infinity? I saw the answer that involved infinity but was so confusing, you would be better off taking the mathematician's word for it. I could give nice long and boring figures about it but would you care after awhile? The forum is supposed to be fun and socialable. As I'm not being payed to research and type out the whole thing, the other forum members are not being payed to read the whole boring thing. If I start doing this, I won't get my point across because the other forum members will fall asleep or just skim through and might miss something important.

Great more dead guys. I admit, you have a greater depth of book education thatn many of us do. The last dead philospher I read outside of college was Sun Tzu. Your implying that we care to begin with. This is a sociable place, so don't make it work.

QUOTE:
Bottom line is this...

It is not necessary to be insulting to get your message across in the forum. Out in the real world where people can get hurt or killed by someone's stupidity; yes. But this is the forum. No one is going to get injured or killed by someone's remarks that you may find dopey. A philosopher said "the clothes may make a gentleman but it is the manners that make a man".

Andrew

Finally, the bottom line, which is the topic of the thread. You don't like how folks treat you. We're not academia, though there are a few smart fellas here, and a bunch of experienced ones. The only way which someone here has to judge someone else is how they come across in type. Like I said before, most folks type the way they talk. And this comes across as whining. If you want folks to play in the sandbox with you, you have to make the effort to get along with them and adopt the rules of the sandbox.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Originally posted by Overmod

I really am a great person to be around if you ever meet me in person. I may sound like a pompous, arrogant ***; but I'm really fun to be around. I don't really like to talk formal because than I do sound like I have a stick up my butt. I do ask good questions here and there though.

Your humility is always what I liked best about you.

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