The whole idea of getting rid of all grade crossings doesn't pass the logic test. The number of fatalities in train/car collisions compared to cars/everything else collisions is so lopsided, that if a logical person looked at the data, he would probably conclude that the most cost effective way to save lives would be to eliminate all cars and all highways. On the whole, that idea is no more unreasonable that proposing to eliminate all rail crossings. Perhaps a compromise is in order. In cases where the railroad was there first, have the government entity that own the road build an overpass. In the cases where the road was there first, have the railroad build an overpass.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Part of the problem may be that we're licensing drivers at too young an age. Maybe a graduated licensing program (like we have here in Ontario) Or flat out raise the minimum age you can drive to 21.
Considering the revised title of this thread changing the object to 'Idiots'.
Are idiots really a endangered species and is it necessary to save them from themselves for the overall betterment of civilization?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Too many people killed by trains? How many is "too many"? 1? 100? 1000?
When you consider the large number of vehicles on the roads, and the large number of crossings, and the large number of trains, and the large number of available driver distractions, are there really THAT many being killed? Sure, if it's someone you care about, 1 is too many.
I think this whole "get rid of the crossings" and "fence the entire right-of-way" train of thought is, at best, a fantasy with no real-world possibilities. The cost of such a project would likely even make a Saudi king bankrupt. I feel that the huge amount of cash needed for such an endeavor would save many more lives if applied to making the roads themselves safer, along with a much better driver education system.
Kids sometimes do dumb things. Sometimes there will be trains involved. Sometimes there will be guns involved. Sometimes drugs or alcohol will be involved. Many times the law will be involved. The only way to prevent bad things from happening to teenagers is to lock them in the basement when they turn 13 and let them out when they're 21. Unfortunately, that is mostly illegal.
So I say let's move on, and try to keep things in perspective.
The title of this thread has been changed in an undue manner - it is offensive and abusive.
Either this discussion stays in line with forum policies, or I will have to lock this thread.
Uh-oh, thread purge in progress.
All personnel evacuate the thread...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
There are only a few things in this life you can ALWAYS count on:
a. Death
b. Taxes
c. There will never be a shortage of idiots!
schlimm And BTW, ed, if proposing safer crossings is just more of the "same nonsense in every thread of this nature" then I stand convicted, but i will continue to push for safety, regardless of whatever degree of irritation, anger or inconvenience that may cause you and all the other defenders of the status quo there are on here.
And BTW, ed, if proposing safer crossings is just more of the "same nonsense in every thread of this nature" then I stand convicted, but i will continue to push for safety, regardless of whatever degree of irritation, anger or inconvenience that may cause you and all the other defenders of the status quo there are on here.
Get the governmental bodies that control the roads to pay what is necessary to create grade separation and you will have accomplished something. In 99.999% of all road crossings, the road came after the railroad and as such the responsibility for creating grade separation falls to those governmental bodies. With Flashers and Gates the railroads are providing as much reasonable protection as is feasible, but from others view points the gates should be impenetrable 'blast wall' able to stop a fully loaded tractor-trailer rig moving at maximum legal speeds without impinging upon the track structure. The carriers for the past decade or more have been pushing a agenda of closing minimally used crossings, going through the appropriate legal channels - and getting much local opposition along the way.
Looking at my carriers road crossing data base - there are over 31,000 road crossings on the property - in 21,000 route miles - more than 1 crossing per mile.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
blue streak 1 nother one today in Mountain View Ca (near San Jose ) . Note agree with title change and will implement it !!!!!!!!!!!!
nother one today in Mountain View Ca (near San Jose ) .
Note agree with title change and will implement it !!!!!!!!!!!!
Idiorts?
May I offer a few observations?
First, I distinctly remember reading a number of articles recently which seem to prove that the brains of teenagers, and boys in particular, simply aren't as developed as those of adults, especially in areas that require maturity of judgement. To me, it's the same lack of mature thinking that causes some teens to take guns to school or to be involved in hazing. So I'd be careful implying that such immature thinking is simply a product of today's culture. It seems to be a product of biology, at least to some extent.
Second, a 20 year old former student of mine committed suicide last week by deliberately being struck by a CSX train passing through our town. About five years ago another student did the exact same thing, stepping out from behind a bridge abutment at the last moment. About 20 years ago another student, who was in a car, was killed in collision with a W&LE freight at a not-too-well-marked crossing in town So to me, the subject of safety around trains and being killed by them is one I take seriously, indeed.
I feel very, very sorry for the engineers who have to be part of such awful incidents. I can't imagine what they must go though afterwards. I remember that after that student was hit by the W&LE train, that the railroad brought Operation Lifesaver to town, and it seems to have helped. But on that Operation Lifesaver train I heard an engineer say that they can clearly see the faces of people in that last moment of their life, and the vast majority, he said, are mouthing or saying the words, "Oh God" or "Oh Sxxx."
I also don't think "silent" or no-horn crossings are going to help very much.
Regarding the title, how many idiots is too many? Isn't the only solution to the problem be to get all the idiots killed off?
Ulrich Maybe more education is the answer, I don't know. When i was a teenager I didn't need to be told that parking my car on the tracks is a dumb idea...it just kinda made sense to me. It could be that kids today have too much time on their hands and thus fall prey to these hare brained games.
Maybe more education is the answer, I don't know. When i was a teenager I didn't need to be told that parking my car on the tracks is a dumb idea...it just kinda made sense to me. It could be that kids today have too much time on their hands and thus fall prey to these hare brained games.
The more kids you get together, esp. in a car, the dumber each of them becomes. Peer pressure, groupthink, whatever...
Rule number one: people will die.
Rule number 2: NOBODY can change rule number one.
The other day, a 15 yr old kid went to get the mail. He got the mail, turned around, didn't look (presumably), and stepped in front of a car. Kid was killed. Should we outlaw at-grade mailboxes?
We have to let go of the fantasy of eliminating 100% of at-grade crossings. It's never going to happen in our lifetimes. Yes, we should eliminate lots of them, but there will never be all gone. Don't forget to take into account all the private crossings. You can play "ghost train" on them just as well as a public ones.
But remember rules #1 and 2.
Sorry, ed, but I prefer facts to rationalizations and name-calling. If you, an intelligent guy choose to pretend I put words in your mouth such as "Darwin" when, of course I was referring to what has gone on this forum (said by others) for the past several years, fine. I prefer to not speculate as to your reasons. I am not on a vendetta against US rails. I am simply impatient with deflecting the blame onto victims as a way of avoiding doing the right thing. As Phoebe said in his post, we should be focused on "straightening the right of ways and eliminating grade level crossings." Perhaps you have a better answer? Obviously some of these accidents/suicides cannot be prevented. But a better system could help, as can be seen in the better stats from other industrialized counties with more trains. Is our situation so different? Do we have a higher "idiots" per capita rate than they do? Statistics would say no.
Cardinal rule to remember!
NO MATTER HOW IDIOT PROOF YOU MAKE SOMETHING.
A more idiotic idiot will defeat your attempts!
Schlimm,
Technology can't replace basic intelligence.
Parking your Jeep in front of a pair of locomotives weighing 440,000 lbs each pulling a passenger train moving close to track speed, and remaining inside your Jeep, will result in death.
I placed no "blame" anywhere, nor did I refer to Darwin, those words are yours not mine, but as usual, it appears you failed to really look at the story, you obviously missed the fact this was a small private crossing, not a public one, and no amount of technology would have prevented these kids from playing their game, if not here, then at some other location on the tracks.
Short of fencing the entire right of way, (even that would not stop most trespassers) you can't keep people off the tracks by any other means beyond educating them.
It is obvious that you have a private vendetta against American railroads and your agenda of citizens needing big brother government to protect us from ourselves at grade crossing wears thin at times, you propose the same nonsense in every thread of this nature.
Its regrettable you feel the need to embellish other folks posting with words, phrases and intent that were not there originally, in your attempt to alter what was said and therefore offer you a chance to further your personal agenda and political views against American railroads, it makes you look just as shabby as the ambulance chasers mentioned earlier.
As a responsible parent of three daughters, two of which drive, I have taken the time to teach them the dangers present at grade crossings, we have four within a two mile radius of our home, and they all realize how dangerous and deadly trains can be.
The key word there is responsible...only I am truly responsible for what and how my children learn, not some government entity, not the school system, not Big Brother, and the fact is I have taught them that they, and only they can make choices on how they behave and in what they do, and that their actions can and often do have a profound effect not only on their lives but on the lives of those around them.
Society as a whole seems to be full of people who believe they should be allowed to do whatever they want, and that if what they want or choose to do is dangerous or illegal, it is up to someone else to prevent them from doing it, assignment of responsibility to anyone or anything else but themselves.
"If you hadn't left your keys in the car, I couldn't have stolen it, so it's your fault I stole you car", "If you had locked your front door, I couldn't have gotten in and burglarized your home, so it's your fault".
"If there had been a barricade in front of the tracks, I couldn't have parked my Jeep on the crossing, so it's your fault I was hit"
How anyone can rationalize driving an automobile in front of a moving train is anyone else's responsibility other than the automobiles driver is beyond me.
They young lady driving the Jeep that night had a choice...when her friends asked to go play this game, she could have said no.
The laws are real clear about this, she is the driver of the vehicle, and is responsible for how it is operated, and for the people inside the vehicle and what they do.
Texas has a great seatbelt law, if you are stopped by a police officer, and one of your passengers is not wearing their seatbelt, not only will the passenger receive a citation for that, but the driver also receives a citation for allowing a passenger to be unrestrained.
Simply put, it was her car, she parked it there on the tracks, no amount of gates, barricades, fences, light bells or whistles would have prevented her from doing so, if not at that grade crossing, further down the tracks.
She and her friends made a choice to play a very dangerous game, and they lost.
I pity both her and her parents, this night will haunt them forever.
23 17 46 11
A better title would have been "Too many idiots are getting killed by trains.".
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
The title is appropriate. The train as the mechanism of death does not, in any way, infer culpability.
As long as we continue to use a railroad system designed and built in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, trains will be slow and those, the least among us, will get killed at grade level crossings. Faster speeds would benefit freight as well as passenger service. We live in a world with little patience.
We need to straighten the right of ways and eliminate grade level crossings. It is a mammoth undertaking that will take many decades and LOTS of money, but the longer we put it off the harder it will get. As population increases, ever more people and businesses must be displaced in the process and thus the costs will continue to increase.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
edblysardI hope their parents realize they can make a difference with this...go to the schools and teach the students how silly and dangerous this game is, explain how easy it is to be hit by a train, and how to avoid it.
Alas, all too many teens are afflicted with the "it can't happen to me" syndrome, which makes teaching such life lessons all the more difficult.
I must agree with Ed on the title - I, too, was trying to think of ways to reword it.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Recently we had a few people get killed while walking along the traintracks here.
We also had a few get killed crossing the tracks at street level while there was an actual bridge they could have crossed...they even climbed fences to do this...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
With all due respect, edblysard, trains don't kill, nor do the engineers, nor can it all be blamed on idiot drivers, foolish teens, the Darwin effect and all the other rationales thrown around on the many threads of this theme for years. The real problem is that the basic design for our road-rail crossings hasn't changed much in 100 years. That is why our death rate per 100K people is higher than that of the nations I listed, nations that have a far denser network with far more trains per day per crossing. We need to stop blaming victims and start insisting on safer technology.
I've got over 30 years in fire and EMS. I tend to think of how I deal with a bad call as "rationalizing." There's nothing I can do about what happened, I can only try to prevent things from getting worse. Oftimes it's apparent that the victim placed themselves into their situation - much as these kids appear to have done.
That said, it's said that everyone has "their call" - the one they can't rationalize, ignore, or otherwise write off. All too often it's their last call, as they hang up their stethoscope and find a new career.
With our limited mileage and fairly remote locations, encounters with pedestrians and vehicles are less frequent, but not unheard of. We've had some close calls, including one where mom and youngster were caught on a bridge. Mom was able to squeeze up against the girder, but she was holding the kid out over the river that runs beneath the bridge...
It's just a matter of time...
With all due respect to the original poster, the title is irksome.
Trains don't kill people, they just happen to be the machine that completes the act, and like all moving machines, they obey the laws of physics.
Titles like this one, and headers I see in newspapers make it sound as if a train is some form of predator, prowling around, looking for innocent humans to prey on...change the word "trains" in the title to "tiger" and you will get the point.
The train didn't kill these kids, naïve assumption and lack of common sense did.
They, and most folks hit at rail crossings fail to think their actions through, and usually die because of it.
The parents of these kids have my deepest sympathies, the death of any of my children is beyond unthinkable, no parent should have to bury their child.
I hope their parents realize they can make a difference with this...go to the schools and teach the students how silly and dangerous this game is, explain how easy it is to be hit by a train, and how to avoid it.
While I would never suggest something as obscene as making a positive out of this, if the parents do just that and teach the rest of the students about this, and if they manage to save just one child's life, then maybe their kids death will not have been in vain.
BaltACD All those going into line of road train and engine service know, or should know, they will hit people and people will die. It is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when.
All those going into line of road train and engine service know, or should know, they will hit people and people will die. It is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when.
And regarding those that are desensitized to violence and killing, I believe there is a term to describe that sort of person: psychopath.
Thanks for sharing BaltACD, you always add wisdom to this discussion board.
blue streak 1 another killed on the NEC today but the most foolish killing was 2 yesterday playing ghost train -- comments welcomed http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-missouri-girls-playing-ghost-train-die-when-jeep-stops/article_205ca220-af06-11e1-b3dd-001a4bcf6878.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-missouri-girls-playing-ghost-train-die-when-jeep-stops/article_205ca220-af06-11e1-b3dd-001a4bcf6878.html
Article infers this 'ghost train' thing was often done after midnight. Wonder if that was timed for or intended to use the Amtrak train as the "ghost", since it runs on a more predictable schedule than most trains? Note - "schedule" - so why weren't the local or railroad police waiting there some night at that time ?
From the linked article: "[Coroner Akers] said the girls' parents were aware of it but didn't condone it." Evidently the parents didn't 'not condone' it enough.
Also wonder if some clever lawyer can find a way to make that strangeusa.com website or the people who have posted there about this financially liable on some theory of encouraging or reckless endangerment by publishing and perpetuating these myths . . .
- Paul North.
That's just great, Quentin! My best to you both!
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