I have been hesitant to post on this thread because someone will point out that I am stupid and I hate it when someone points out the obvious.
BUT... to open my mouth to change feet...
I think the statistic that we need to compare between various locals, countries, etc. is the number of times a car is in a grade crossing, plus the number of times a train is in a grade crossing, versus the number of times they are there at the same time.
Total train or car miles traveled, or the number of crossings per cubic furlongs, or the population of moose in the area just doesn't seem to be constrained enough to be something that can be compared with any meaning for deciding what effects the number of car/train collisions.
I suppose one could calculate the number of times a train is in a grade crossing, but I see the count of the number of times a car is in a grade crossing as only available as a gross guess and so that would leave the compareson as rather useless.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
BaltACD schlimm: edblysard: Someone made a statement about facts earlier, of course without providing any of their own, so here are the numbers from last year, Jan to Dec 2011, provided by the FRA. Well, Ed, instead of making erroneous statements about not providing facts, if you had actually taken the time to read this thread, you would have seen that I posted data on the first page that is far more relevant."Putting the issue into an objective statistical perspective, the death rates from level crossing accidents in the UK, Spain, France and Germany for 2010 were .02, .04, .06 and .06 respectively per 100,000 population. In the US for 2010 the rate was .083 per 100,000 population. This figure is not dramatically higher, but nevertheless suggests our safety record could be improved." Simply saying the cliche, "we're apples and oranges" (US and Europe) doesn't make that of any relevance to the issue at hand. And now we will bring Mark Twain into the discussion.... 'There are lies, *** lies and statistics!' We can measure and compare things in truly nonsensical way - one uses incidents per train miles, another uses incidents per population - why not incident per polar bears or incidents per pounds of potatoes consumed. Measure apples or measure oranges - but don't compare the measurement of apples to the measurement of oranges. Until you perform the same measurements you have nothing to compare.
schlimm: edblysard: Someone made a statement about facts earlier, of course without providing any of their own, so here are the numbers from last year, Jan to Dec 2011, provided by the FRA. Well, Ed, instead of making erroneous statements about not providing facts, if you had actually taken the time to read this thread, you would have seen that I posted data on the first page that is far more relevant."Putting the issue into an objective statistical perspective, the death rates from level crossing accidents in the UK, Spain, France and Germany for 2010 were .02, .04, .06 and .06 respectively per 100,000 population. In the US for 2010 the rate was .083 per 100,000 population. This figure is not dramatically higher, but nevertheless suggests our safety record could be improved." Simply saying the cliche, "we're apples and oranges" (US and Europe) doesn't make that of any relevance to the issue at hand.
edblysard: Someone made a statement about facts earlier, of course without providing any of their own, so here are the numbers from last year, Jan to Dec 2011, provided by the FRA.
Someone made a statement about facts earlier, of course without providing any of their own, so here are the numbers from last year, Jan to Dec 2011, provided by the FRA.
Well, Ed, instead of making erroneous statements about not providing facts, if you had actually taken the time to read this thread, you would have seen that I posted data on the first page that is far more relevant."Putting the issue into an objective statistical perspective, the death rates from level crossing accidents in the UK, Spain, France and Germany for 2010 were .02, .04, .06 and .06 respectively per 100,000 population. In the US for 2010 the rate was .083 per 100,000 population. This figure is not dramatically higher, but nevertheless suggests our safety record could be improved."
Simply saying the cliche, "we're apples and oranges" (US and Europe) doesn't make that of any relevance to the issue at hand.
And now we will bring Mark Twain into the discussion....
'There are lies, *** lies and statistics!'
We can measure and compare things in truly nonsensical way - one uses incidents per train miles, another uses incidents per population - why not incident per polar bears or incidents per pounds of potatoes consumed. Measure apples or measure oranges - but don't compare the measurement of apples to the measurement of oranges. Until you perform the same measurements you have nothing to compare.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
tree68 And as has been pointed out, all an idiot-proof solution does is make the idiots more creative.
And as has been pointed out, all an idiot-proof solution does is make the idiots more creative.
Or, as propounded by an unknown but practical philosopher: if you build a better mouse trap, nature will provide a smarter mouse.
One common way of dealing with safety issues in the workplace is by way of engineering - if there's a problem with fumes, you add ventilation.
As we've discussed ad nauseum, however, you can't engineer people, try as we might. No barrier is insurmountable, and if an individual (or group) chooses to ignore it, they will.
Regardless of the statistics (I've heard that 79% of them are made up on the spot), the fact remains that there is an interface between vehicles/pedestrians and trains be it at crossings or not. As long as that interface exists, people are going to get hurt and worse.
All the finger-wagging and postulating in the world isn't going to change that. And as has been pointed out, all an idiot-proof solution does is make the idiots more creative.
We can argue this forever, but it's not going to change the end result.
Regarding highway stats - back in 1974 when the big oil embargo was on, highway deaths plummeted - as did miles driven. A deeper look, however, revealed that the number of deaths per miles driven actually ended a ten year downward trend and started to increase again. One might surmise that the reason was that all the relatively good drivers were staying home while the more accident-prone drivers stayed on the road.
BTW - Twain was quoting Benjamin Disraeli.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
mmmm...well, let us see here.
Europe had most of its collective infrastructure blown up or in poor shape about 65 years ago..and most of it was, in fact, rebuilt in a purposeful manner....
We. in North America, had our rail infrastructure built over a 150 year period without being blown up, or otherwise destroyed in like manner...
So, unless someone is willing to use the hyperbole of completely tearing the infrastructure apart and rebuilding it..we will just have to deal with this simple historicomaterial point as is...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
schlimm edblysard: Someone made a statement about facts earlier, of course without providing any of their own, so here are the numbers from last year, Jan to Dec 2011, provided by the FRA. Well, Ed, instead of making erroneous statements about not providing facts, if you had actually taken the time to read this thread, you would have seen that I posted data on the first page that is far more relevant."Putting the issue into an objective statistical perspective, the death rates from level crossing accidents in the UK, Spain, France and Germany for 2010 were .02, .04, .06 and .06 respectively per 100,000 population. In the US for 2010 the rate was .083 per 100,000 population. This figure is not dramatically higher, but nevertheless suggests our safety record could be improved." Simply saying the cliche, "we're apples and oranges" (US and Europe) doesn't make that of any relevance to the issue at hand.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmann zugmann: Bucyrus: I am referring to any trains, and even those moving 60 mph. Drivers don't know or care how fast the train is going. All they know is the flashers mean go for it while you have a chance or, risk an insufferable delay. It is ingrained in society. Everybody who has been driving for a little while knows that trains can block crossings with impunity. They don't always do that. But they do it enough to plant the idea in the mind of every driver. And drivers have no way of knowing that a train is not going to stop. People say drivers should be able to wait 1-2 minutes for a train to pass. Sure they should, but they don't know whether it will be 1-2 minutes or 15 minutes. So they take a chance zipping across ahead of the train rather than taking a chance getting delayed by it. To most drivers, the flashers mean: DELAY Which is still the fault of the driver.
zugmann: Bucyrus: I am referring to any trains, and even those moving 60 mph. Drivers don't know or care how fast the train is going. All they know is the flashers mean go for it while you have a chance or, risk an insufferable delay. It is ingrained in society. Everybody who has been driving for a little while knows that trains can block crossings with impunity. They don't always do that. But they do it enough to plant the idea in the mind of every driver. And drivers have no way of knowing that a train is not going to stop. People say drivers should be able to wait 1-2 minutes for a train to pass. Sure they should, but they don't know whether it will be 1-2 minutes or 15 minutes. So they take a chance zipping across ahead of the train rather than taking a chance getting delayed by it. To most drivers, the flashers mean: DELAY Which is still the fault of the driver.
Bucyrus: I am referring to any trains, and even those moving 60 mph. Drivers don't know or care how fast the train is going. All they know is the flashers mean go for it while you have a chance or, risk an insufferable delay. It is ingrained in society. Everybody who has been driving for a little while knows that trains can block crossings with impunity. They don't always do that. But they do it enough to plant the idea in the mind of every driver. And drivers have no way of knowing that a train is not going to stop. People say drivers should be able to wait 1-2 minutes for a train to pass. Sure they should, but they don't know whether it will be 1-2 minutes or 15 minutes. So they take a chance zipping across ahead of the train rather than taking a chance getting delayed by it. To most drivers, the flashers mean: DELAY
I am referring to any trains, and even those moving 60 mph. Drivers don't know or care how fast the train is going. All they know is the flashers mean go for it while you have a chance or, risk an insufferable delay. It is ingrained in society.
Everybody who has been driving for a little while knows that trains can block crossings with impunity. They don't always do that. But they do it enough to plant the idea in the mind of every driver. And drivers have no way of knowing that a train is not going to stop.
People say drivers should be able to wait 1-2 minutes for a train to pass. Sure they should, but they don't know whether it will be 1-2 minutes or 15 minutes. So they take a chance zipping across ahead of the train rather than taking a chance getting delayed by it. To most drivers, the flashers mean: DELAY
Which is still the fault of the driver.
To put rail related fatalities into perspective, the number of motor vehicle related fatalities in the US is somewhere around 33 thousand a year... As bad as that is, its down by over ten thousand from just 1o years ago.
Heh.. this is turning into "my bell curve is bigger than your bell curve!"
Statistics jokes... 9 out of 10 people love 'em!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
edblysard Someone made a statement about facts earlier, of course without providing any of their own, so here are the numbers from last year, Jan to Dec 2011, provided by the FRA.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A highway-rail incident is any impact between a rail and a highway user at a crossing site, regardless of severity.
Includes motor vehicles and other highway/roadway/sidewalk users at both public and private crossings.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Highway incidents.
# of incidents 1966
frequency per million train miles 2.74
Total fatalities 248
Non fatal conditions 958
# of fatal crossing incidents 236 or 12.%
Trespasser incidents, (not at crossings)
Frequency per million train miles 1.07
Total fatalities 420
Total non fatal conditions 349
Highway-rail and trespassing incidents account for 95.16% of all fatalities.
Highway-rail incidents represent 17.61% of all reported events.
Of course you can draw your own conclusions, but from the numbers it seems more people were killed trespassing at other than grade crossings, not quite double the number at crossings.
Here is a link to the FRA page, look for yourself, lots on useful info.
http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeofsafety/publicsite/Query/statsSas.aspx
Population density means little, I live in a city with 3 million per the last census, in a county with 5 million.
Harris County/Metroplex has more railroad tracks and crossings inside its borders than several of the US states do within their entire state.
On average, 2000 trains a day cross Texas.
Harris county alone has 3000 plus public grade crossings.
So we should be wacking someone almost on a daily basis...but we don't.
Comparing European railroad operations with American railroading is, to use a cliché, is like comparing apples and oranges.
This argument has been hashed and rehashed over and over in various threads, but simply put, it's like comparing the Japanese Bullet trains to the Northwest corridor, the latter evolved over 150 years of mixed freight/passenger use, the former was purpose built 60 years ago.
Back to the original posting, my contention was that the kids involved had a choice.
Every one of this forums members were teenagers once upon a time, and I am pretty sure every one of us did some pretty stupid things as kids, and all of us has a story that ends with, "I should have died"...but the fact that all of us are here.
You can blame hormonal imbalance, teen age group mind, un caring railroads, indifferent state, county and local governments, railroad robber barons, pick a bad guy, but it still boils down to personal responsibility...the driver in this sad incident had a choice, either drive there and park on the tracks, or not to drive there.
Everyone here on this forum at some point in our teenage years faced a similar choice, maybe not involving trains, but something equally dangerous and dumb, and based on the fact that all of us are alive now indicates that teenagers can and do make intelligent choices.
23 17 46 11
ButchKnouse Bucyrus: I would speculate that the points of train/vehicle conflict are far more probable to have collisions than points of vehicle/vehicle conflict. People get antsy and want to beat the train so they don’t have to sit there while the train stops on the crossing and fiddles around for a half hour. People will also try to beat trains moving 60 mph, These trains are not going to stop. I think it's a combination of the Rebel Without a Clue mentality, where people learn to drive as teenagers, and then retain the habits. But the longer I live, the more I believe that a portion of the population seems to have an unconcious death wish.
Bucyrus: I would speculate that the points of train/vehicle conflict are far more probable to have collisions than points of vehicle/vehicle conflict. People get antsy and want to beat the train so they don’t have to sit there while the train stops on the crossing and fiddles around for a half hour.
I would speculate that the points of train/vehicle conflict are far more probable to have collisions than points of vehicle/vehicle conflict. People get antsy and want to beat the train so they don’t have to sit there while the train stops on the crossing and fiddles around for a half hour.
People will also try to beat trains moving 60 mph, These trains are not going to stop. I think it's a combination of the Rebel Without a Clue mentality, where people learn to drive as teenagers, and then retain the habits.
But the longer I live, the more I believe that a portion of the population seems to have an unconcious death wish.
LION and his ambulance were called out to the site of a grade crossing accident. (ETOH was involved).
Driver said "I didn't know that trains moved that fast."
Now he knows. The train did not hit him, but he did take out the opposing cross arm and then drove into the ditch hitting a power pole. The engineer called the accident in. The driver did not want to ride in our ambulance, but the state patrol told him " You can ride in the ambulance, or you can ride in the squad car. You are under arrest either way."
By the time we got back to town a BNSF crew was already on scene with its grade crossing repair kit. Apparently someone told the following train to "protect the intersection" so he stopped his train on the intersection until the inspectors finished working on the gate.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
zugmann Bucyrus: I am referring to any trains, and even those moving 60 mph. Drivers don't know or care how fast the train is going. All they know is the flashers mean go for it while you have a chance or, risk an insufferable delay. It is ingrained in society. Everybody who has been driving for a little while knows that trains can block crossings with impunity. They don't always do that. But they do it enough to plant the idea in the mind of every driver. And drivers have no way of knowing that a train is not going to stop. People say drivers should be able to wait 1-2 minutes for a train to pass. Sure they should, but they don't know whether it will be 1-2 minutes or 15 minutes. So they take a chance zipping across ahead of the train rather than taking a chance getting delayed by it. To most drivers, the flashers mean: DELAY Which is still the fault of the driver. These same people would probably try to bust through the police barricades at an accident if it weren't for the fact that officers would empty a clip at their windshield. So let's spend 50 billion dollars on a few morons that will probably end up killing themselves in one fashion or another... I'm all for safety, but like my old conservative professor taught us, human life has a value. That is part of what decides which intersections get improved, what curves get guardrails, and so forth.
Which is still the fault of the driver. These same people would probably try to bust through the police barricades at an accident if it weren't for the fact that officers would empty a clip at their windshield.
So let's spend 50 billion dollars on a few morons that will probably end up killing themselves in one fashion or another...
I'm all for safety, but like my old conservative professor taught us, human life has a value. That is part of what decides which intersections get improved, what curves get guardrails, and so forth.
Bucyrus I am referring to any trains, and even those moving 60 mph. Drivers don't know or care how fast the train is going. All they know is the flashers mean go for it while you have a chance or, risk an insufferable delay. It is ingrained in society. Everybody who has been driving for a little while knows that trains can block crossings with impunity. They don't always do that. But they do it enough to plant the idea in the mind of every driver. And drivers have no way of knowing that a train is not going to stop. People say drivers should be able to wait 1-2 minutes for a train to pass. Sure they should, but they don't know whether it will be 1-2 minutes or 15 minutes. So they take a chance zipping across ahead of the train rather than taking a chance getting delayed by it. To most drivers, the flashers mean: DELAY
Bucyrus I would speculate that the points of train/vehicle conflict are far more probable to have collisions than points of vehicle/vehicle conflict. People get antsy and want to beat the train so they don’t have to sit there while the train stops on the crossing and fiddles around for a half hour.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
Instead of the perspective of protecting the evil law breakers in the cars, consider it from the perspective of protecting the people on the trains FROM the people in the cars.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I am reminded of two things:
1. A major US automaker was having problems with one of their vehicles that was resulting in serious injury and death. They supposedly determined that the cost of paying out the claims from said incidents was less than redesigning the vehicle and retooling its manufacture...
2. An editorial in a local newspaper back in the 60's commented on the "crisis du jour" - "killer trees." We're all familiar with them - those leafy monsters that jump out in front of motorists.
The editorial went on to suggest that we should, indeed get rid of the killer trees, as well as other such hazards, carefully separate traffic lanes, and mandate spacing between vehicles to eliminate traffic collisions.
The editorial ended by noting that even with all of the aforementioned actions taken, somebody would still roll their car over and kill themselves...
schlimm Sorry, ed, but I prefer facts to rationalizations and name-calling. If you, an intelligent guy choose to pretend I put words in your mouth such as "Darwin" when, of course I was referring to what has gone on this forum (said by others) for the past several years, fine. I prefer to not speculate as to your reasons. I am not on a vendetta against US rails. I am simply impatient with deflecting the blame onto victims as a way of avoiding doing the right thing. As Phoebe said in his post, we should be focused on "straightening the right of ways and eliminating grade level crossings." Perhaps you have a better answer? Obviously some of these accidents/suicides cannot be prevented. But a better system could help, as can be seen in the better stats from other industrialized counties with more trains. Is our situation so different? Do we have a higher "idiots" per capita rate than they do? Statistics would say no.
Sorry, ed, but I prefer facts to rationalizations and name-calling. If you, an intelligent guy choose to pretend I put words in your mouth such as "Darwin" when, of course I was referring to what has gone on this forum (said by others) for the past several years, fine. I prefer to not speculate as to your reasons. I am not on a vendetta against US rails. I am simply impatient with deflecting the blame onto victims as a way of avoiding doing the right thing. As Phoebe said in his post, we should be focused on "straightening the right of ways and eliminating grade level crossings." Perhaps you have a better answer? Obviously some of these accidents/suicides cannot be prevented. But a better system could help, as can be seen in the better stats from other industrialized counties with more trains. Is our situation so different? Do we have a higher "idiots" per capita rate than they do? Statistics would say no.
schlimm Putting the issue into an objective statistical perspective, the death rates from level crossing accidents in the UK, Spain, France and Germany for 2010 were .02, .04, .06 and .06 respectively per 100,000 population. In the US for 2010 the rate was .083 per 100,000 population. This figure is not dramatically higher, but nevertheless suggests our safety record could be improved.
Putting the issue into an objective statistical perspective, the death rates from level crossing accidents in the UK, Spain, France and Germany for 2010 were .02, .04, .06 and .06 respectively per 100,000 population. In the US for 2010 the rate was .083 per 100,000 population. This figure is not dramatically higher, but nevertheless suggests our safety record could be improved.
blownout cylinder Recently we had a few people get killed while walking along the traintracks here. We also had a few get killed crossing the tracks at street level while there was an actual bridge they could have crossed...they even climbed fences to do this...
Recently we had a few people get killed while walking along the traintracks here.
We also had a few get killed crossing the tracks at street level while there was an actual bridge they could have crossed...they even climbed fences to do this...
I'll just say it again...
Murphy Siding The logical conclusion to the sad arguement that it is somehow the fault of the railroads that people get hit by trains when they don't follow the lwas or use common sense.
The logical conclusion to the sad arguement that it is somehow the fault of the railroads that people get hit by trains when they don't follow the lwas or use common sense.
Either your logic is terribly flawed or you are joking. Responsibility for crossing improvements is largely through federal money passed on to the states. "It is somehow the fault of the railroads that people get hit by train" is yet another example of your attempt at a straw man argument. No one is contending that here; you are the one saying that. Those of us who see the need for steps to improve crossing safety have said no such thing.
mudchicken Ban pedestrians?
Ban pedestrians?
The argument of whether more are killed by motor vehicles or trains can be found by our research posters. Find number of fatal predestrian and / or tresspassers that are killed per million vehicle miles vs number of million train miles ??? It appears to this poster that the ratio by trains is higher but would not bet on it ???
Murphy Siding The whole idea of getting rid of all grade crossings doesn't pass the logic test. The number of fatalities in train/car collisions compared to cars/everything else collisions is so lopsided, that if a logical person looked at the data, he would probably conclude that the most cost effective way to save lives would be to eliminate all cars and all highways. On the whole, that idea is no more unreasonable that proposing to eliminate all rail crossings.
The whole idea of getting rid of all grade crossings doesn't pass the logic test. The number of fatalities in train/car collisions compared to cars/everything else collisions is so lopsided, that if a logical person looked at the data, he would probably conclude that the most cost effective way to save lives would be to eliminate all cars and all highways. On the whole, that idea is no more unreasonable that proposing to eliminate all rail crossings.
No one, including me, has proposed total elimination of crossings on this thread, just you with an apparent straw man argument. Current federal law requires total separation only under specific circumstances, such as the Interstates, railroads operating at higher speeds (125 in my memory, but maybe 110?) and so forth. There are other measures that can improve safety, such as better gated crossings and crossing closures where traffic is light.
Murphy Siding Perhaps a compromise is in order. In cases where the railroad was there first, have the government entity that own the road build an overpass. In the cases where the road was there first, have the railroad build an overpass.
Seriously, Murphy, one could as sensibly suggest eliminating all road and street intersections in the name of safety.
There is no perfect safety, even in one's own home. People who die at railroad crossings are usually breaking one law or another, either deliberately or through inattention. The numbers do not seem out of sight, given the number of at-grade crossings and the number of people who use them. I can think of many more useful applications of our private and public money than overpasses for every crossing.
That sounds like a plan to eliminate the crossings to me.
You could apply the same "It would cost too much" argument to Eisenhower's plan to build a nationwide system of limited access highways. Try to picture our country now without them. Now we need to do the same thing with railroads.
Ulrich Part of the problem may be that we're licensing drivers at too young an age. Maybe a graduated licensing program (like we have here in Ontario) Or flat out raise the minimum age you can drive to 21.
Part of the problem may be that we're licensing drivers at too young an age. Maybe a graduated licensing program (like we have here in Ontario) Or flat out raise the minimum age you can drive to 21.
I agree with you but then the immature voter would complain about having the right to vote but not being allowed to drive to the polling place to do so.
As for the subject of this thread, who ever changed it to "idiorts" did so in a way to change the subject line in the list of postings, and then the spelling was corrected to "idiots" but the (I assume) moderator that threatend to lock the thread only changed the subject line in the their posting and not on the thread itself. If the change was inappropriate and objectionable way, then I would think it ought to be corrected correctly by the moderator.
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