another killed on the NEC today but the most foolish killing was 2 yesterday playing ghost train -- comments welcomed
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-missouri-girls-playing-ghost-train-die-when-jeep-stops/article_205ca220-af06-11e1-b3dd-001a4bcf6878.html
There's just no way one can "stupid proof" everything... it's very sad about the girls for sure but so long as people do stupid things you're going to get outcomes like this.
Let me see if I understand.
"Go park on the RR tracks, turn off your car, let the windows fog up, and listen carefully. You can hear a train whistle and you might see a headlight approaching, but don't worry, it's just a ghost."
And someone believed it?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Make something 'idiot proof' - all you have succeeded in doing is to raise the level of idiocy as someone will still find a way to be the idiot that proves you wrong.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Maybe now there will be more ghosts haunting the crossing.
During my career, I had lots of drivers play "chicken" with my train in the same manner as this story (park on the tracks and wait....), but I never had something as dumb as this happen. Sheesh!!!
Most of us when we were teens....no doubt, did some scarey dumb things. It seems teens get these over the top ideas to do challenging "acts", and no amount of "built in safety" will be able to stop it.
It's a sad bit of fact that probably will continue to happen in some manner. It certainly is a sad bit of reality.
Quentin
After gleaning the story a little bit on the Poplar Bluff teens, the fact is that they parked on the tracks about two and three-quarters of a mile north of the Amtrak station when the TC was due in. That probably gave them a small chance for survival, as the train would have been definitely well-slowed by then. Judging by what Google Earth shows, the engineer had about a quarter mile warning that the crossing was fouled. Guessing that his peak speed would have been about 30 mph at that point, that gave him about thirty seconds to record his nightmares for the next year or so, maybe longer as he likely dumped the trainline air and started slowing. (Gives me the heebie-jeepies just thinking about it, thank you very much.)
Unfortunately, teenagers doing incredibly dumb and life-threatening things is nothing new. Been there; done that; lived to tell about it though no good sense of my own. One of the scariest parts of parenthood, for which there is no perfect solution. The only up side to this event is that a lot of the kids in the Poplar Bluff area will be "scared straight" for a while, but that will pass, as well.
Unfortunately, I understand the hearse & ambulance chasers are already lined up.
mudchicken Unfortunately, I understand the hearse & ambulance chasers are already lined up.
Unfortunately, as inevitable a phenomenon as teenagers doing something stupid and paying the ultimate price.
I know we've gone 'round and "round on this many times before, but the sad fact is you can't fix stupid, no way, no how. Kids did stupid things when I was in high school 40 years ago (!) and sadly nothings changed.
And Modelcar, how's the wifes recovery coming?
Firelock76.....Thanks for your thoughts. She's continuing on a pretty good path of rebuilding her system back to strength.
We move about, to the local restaurants, etc....with friends and try not to let her do too much. Overall, I'd say she's doing real well.
Great news Quentin , on Jeans progress.
Cannonball
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Putting the issue into an objective statistical perspective, the death rates from level crossing accidents in the UK, Spain, France and Germany for 2010 were .02, .04, .06 and .06 respectively per 100,000 population. In the US for 2010 the rate was .083 per 100,000 population. This figure is not dramatically higher, but nevertheless suggests our safety record could be improved.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
But was this truly a random-type "accident" ? Or, was it instead a pre-meditated placing of oneself and others at reckless risk, and hence essentially self-inflicted injuries/ death ? Doesn't seem right to skew the statistics with this kind of willful actions (otherwise, I thank you for the statistics and agree with your conclusion).
And if the local teens did this stupid risk fairly often - as seems to be stated by that article - then did the train crews notice it, or should they have, and done something about it, such as calling the local cops on the kids ? Or did they just count everyone's 'lucky stars' and continue on their way ? (Not going to touch the next logical line of inquiry !)
- Paul North.
....Thanks Cannonball....We're well pleased. And thankful.
This is a sad story. Now, will the engineer sue the parents of the driver when he has to take medical leave from constent nighmares he'll suffer for the years to come from this? Maybe those who made it out? This was no joke folks., this is real with real lives gone and wreaked.
seppburgh2 This is a sad story. Now, will the engineer sue the parents of the driver when he has to take medical leave from constent nighmares he'll suffer for the years to come from this? Maybe those who made it out? This was no joke folks., this is real with real lives gone and wreaked.
All those going into line of road train and engine service know, or should know, they will hit people and people will die. It is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when. Doesn't make it easier, however, the realization is that there is nothing that they could have done differently to change the occurrence of the incident. Not all people are mentally equipped for line of road train operations.
LION has discussed this issue over on the SubChat forum, where they are averaging more than one 12-9 (customer under train) per week. The impact on the crew is devastating. But should it be?
First, there are far more automotive fatalities daily than on all rails annually. Are these drivers so devastates as locomotive crews?
LION has been an EMT for almost 20 years, blood, guts, gore, and worse are common. The best I can say is that it is not my body in that wreck. But you do get used to it. So do people in the military.
Ergo: Proper training including the blood and gore, trips to the ER to see wrecked people can desensitize crews to the inevitable results of a 12-9.
You cannot stop the accidents, but you can mitigate its effect on your crews.
Thus spake the LION: Your thoughts may be different.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
There is another factor to consider when examining the statistics that leads to a different conclusion about safety. The number of trains, both passenger and freight, running in the four European counties is considerably higher than in the US. If that were taken into account (unfortunately, I do not have access to the data that would permit that calculation), the accident rate here would be much higher relative to that of those counties. Given that more crossings in Europe have total separation, it argues for the need to move in that direction here. There are many crossings in Europe that are gate-protected, but the design(s) is/are much more substantial and failure/idiot proof than here. Suicides and quasi-suicidal accidents are lumped in with definite accidents because the intent is not always clear. The statistics I did use do not include pedestrian-train incidents, which are more often suicides than incidents with vehicles.
Lion:
I am retired from a career in emergency services, as a police officer, EMT, and Medevac pilot. Your desensitizing analogy is inappropriate. There is a difference between picking up the pieces after the fact and watching it unfold in front of you, knowing that you are about to be involved. A person involved in the incident, even if totally blameless, cannot help wondering if he could have done something different and avoided the death and destruction. It is very traumatic, and will haunt them for years. There is a difference between seeing a dead body and seeing a person who is about to die by your hand.
That trauma will be experienced by drivers, whether or not they are at fault, by engineers, by police officers who have had to shoot someone, even by the architect who designed the World Trade Center who wonders if his "new and innovative structure" is the reason that it fell down during the fire.
It is not in any way the same as the horror of having to deal with the aftermath.
As much as this was a silly, wasteful enterprise on the part of the kids, and so very much regrettable, I am confident there isn't one of us reading here who would not jump at the chance to have been there, hammering at the car window, insisting that the kids get out and run for their lives.
So wasteful, so much ignorance of consequences. About the best we can hope for at this point is that it gets a lot of attention and interpretation as schools wind down their years and the students disperse for a subdued summer without their friends.
BroadwayLion; I can relate to the situation very clearly. OTR drivers have the same feelings as do railroaders, ~~ not if but when. One can not dwell on the event . If one does dwell on that it detracts from what you are doing ~~ doing your job.
Respectfully, Cannonball ( ret. OTR driver)
Phoebe Vet There is a difference between seeing a dead body and seeing a person who is about to die by your hand.
There is a difference between seeing a dead body and seeing a person who is about to die by your hand.
Another one today on Capitol corridor near Susian. Don't know if person killed or not.
With all due respect, some people can desensitize themselves. When the military finds them, they train them in marksmanship and give them sniper rifles.
I have known a number of snipers. All but a few have a, "Better him than me," attitude. They don't lose any sleep, they keep their meals down and they don't suffer from the aftereffects of battle. A couple have admitted that they like the adrenaline high. OTOH, I have met a couple of people who should have never put on a uniform...
I agree that there should be some preparation for engineers, and drivers even more so. Too many people see NASCAR and Formula vehicles crumpling like cardboard boxes, followed by the driver climbing out and walking away. They don't realize that their tin wagons are not designed to be crash capsules the way serious racing machines are. A wreck which Danica Patrick can walk away from will put Jane Doe in intensive care - if she's lucky. And in any conflict between a 2 ton car and a 200 ton locomotive...
I rest my case.
Chuck, MSgt(ret)
You are confusing a planned homicide with a fatal accident.
That's just great, Quentin! My best to you both!
blue streak 1 another killed on the NEC today but the most foolish killing was 2 yesterday playing ghost train -- comments welcomed http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-missouri-girls-playing-ghost-train-die-when-jeep-stops/article_205ca220-af06-11e1-b3dd-001a4bcf6878.html
Article infers this 'ghost train' thing was often done after midnight. Wonder if that was timed for or intended to use the Amtrak train as the "ghost", since it runs on a more predictable schedule than most trains? Note - "schedule" - so why weren't the local or railroad police waiting there some night at that time ?
From the linked article: "[Coroner Akers] said the girls' parents were aware of it but didn't condone it." Evidently the parents didn't 'not condone' it enough.
Also wonder if some clever lawyer can find a way to make that strangeusa.com website or the people who have posted there about this financially liable on some theory of encouraging or reckless endangerment by publishing and perpetuating these myths . . .
Thanks for sharing BaltACD, you always add wisdom to this discussion board.
BaltACD All those going into line of road train and engine service know, or should know, they will hit people and people will die. It is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when.
All those going into line of road train and engine service know, or should know, they will hit people and people will die. It is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when.
And regarding those that are desensitized to violence and killing, I believe there is a term to describe that sort of person: psychopath.
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