A significant amount of N.Bergen and Philadelphia traffic the normally runs via Selkirk has been rerouted to operate via Cumberland.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
The Delaware Rive is a long river into two regions of Upstate NY with several dams and resevoirs and with tributaries into the Catskills and Poconos. The more water that is dumped in for longer stretches upstream the more water comes downstream either faster and heavier or for longer periods of time. Then there is debris which cannot be accounted for ahead of time that will block bridges, culverts, etc, causing erosion and collapsing of structures and more flooding. If it were all predictable, it would be no problem, but...
Update on the commuter situation Thurs. 9/1/11 11AM: LIRR is all back and running. MNRR is too, east of the Hudson with Waterbury line having electric problems at grade crossings slowing trains down; MNRR has also declared emergency powers to rebuild the PJ line. NJT is also completely back in business except for some ongoing repair work slowing things down and RV line Bound Brook station still being passed by because of flooding. SEPTA is busing Trenton to Levittown.
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When you start dumping 5 - 10 - 15 or 20 inches of rain over a watershed in less than 24 hours....the water has to go somewhere and that somewhere is down stream. The more dikes and levees that are built to protect inhabited areas...the more constrained the river becomes which leads to higher crests to flooding and increased water velocity, which will increase scour of anything anchored in the waters path.
Ilene pumped out 5 to 20 inches of rain over thousands of sqare miles of various watersheds - The Lord can only calculate how many gallons the storm dumped on the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.
blue streak 1 Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
BaltACD When you start dumping 5 - 10 - 15 or 20 inches of rain over a watershed in less than 24 hours....the water has to go somewhere and that somewhere is down stream. The more dikes and levees that are built to protect inhabited areas...the more constrained the river becomes which leads to higher crests to flooding and increased water velocity, which will increase scour of anything anchored in the waters path. blue streak 1: Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
blue streak 1: Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
Guess I did not make my question clear.
1. The south end of the Trenton station appears that it floods with some regularity.
2. Is this because it ducks under part of Trenton and gets too low in relation to the Delaware river?
3. How long of a track section does this flooding occurr?
4. Is there any financially feasible way to raise tracks in the area of the station?
5. Has any publication ever addressed this problem?
6. Just wanted to know if this is going to continue for many years or if something could be done?
Duplicate post
I don't know the specific geography of the Trenton area, however, if the problem has existed since the railroad laid out it's line approximately 160 years ago, I expect the solution, if there is one is significantly more expensive than dealing with the occasional flood. The PRR in it's 'salad days' when it was the 'Standard Railroad of the World' would have had the financial ability to construct a solution if it was economically viable.
blue streak 1 blue streak 1: Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station? 6. Just wanted to know if this is going to continue for many years or if something could be done?
Most likely it is going to continue...the only way to raise the track would also mean raising the whole roadbed, the station, catenary, overhead bridges and roads and the River Line light rail and its structures and the track of the Bel-Del. Among things. Yeah, really too out of reach to make any major changes.. Or dredge the Delaware River to the extent that it is lower than current so that it won't overflow. Keep the sewers and watercourses clear at all times. And I'm sure there have been many missives passed around addressing the situation since the railroad was built. And since.
If you look at the road infrastructure along with structural development and the River Line Light Rail, and everything else within a 10 or 20 mile radius of Trenton station, you will understand why the water problems are worse than ever. Then there is climate change which has brought some extremely heavy downpours and deep snows. And look at the area which the Delaware River drains....yes, about 20 or so miles into NJ but hundreds of miles into Pennsylvania and several hundred miles into the western Catskills of New York. Thus a deluge in Stamford, NY could possibly be felt or seen in Trenton days later. Reservoirs in NY on the west and east branches of the Delaware could also be control/uncontrol factors at the discretion of the NYC water department officials, too. The bridges across the Delaware at Trenton, particularly the stone railroad bridge can also hold back water so that it floods over its banks. If there were only one thing, one explanation, one little problem that could fix it, it would still take forever because of politics anyway, so let it flood.
henry6 Most likely it is going to continue...the only way to raise the track would also mean raising the whole roadbed, the station, catenary, overhead bridges and roads and the River Line light rail and its structures and the track of the Bel-Del.
Most likely it is going to continue...the only way to raise the track would also mean raising the whole roadbed, the station, catenary, overhead bridges and roads and the River Line light rail and its structures and the track of the Bel-Del.
So there are several roads/streets bridge crossing overhead including the River line? Are there any buildings or just the bridges? Are the station tracks elevation lower than the PRR bridge over the Delaware? If so how did that happen?
Some pictures from SEPTA last 2 appear to be the Norristown line??
http://www.septa.org/service/hurricane-irene.html
Slideshow of NJ TRANSIT. You need to drag cursor across pictures to get next one.
http://www.njtransit.com/var/var_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=HurricaneIreneTo
Basically, Blue, there has to be time to clean things up, study what really happened, and see what might be able to be done. Overall, what you have proposed is wildly out of the question physically and fiscally. The big and unanswerable question is what does Mother Natur have in mind for tomorrow, next week, next month, next year and everyone of those days,weeks, months, and years hereafter? We're not there yet.
moved post
Found the following below that indicatesmuch of the damage in Trenton. One question have been answered as the NEC Trenton station flooding appears to come from Assunpine Creek?. Anyone ever been there? The picture of signal house that flooded appears to have a large amount of signal equipment.
http://www.septa.org/media/short/2011/09-02.html
I've been there many times. This is in the middle of a city. The creek probalby has been challanged, changed, redirected, captured, and moved again and again and is surrounded for miles around not by earth and naturally opened spaces that will soak up the waters but by concrete and asphalt which will direct and redirect, hold and throw water over its banks wherever there is a low spot, crack, or other opening. It probably isn't a railroad problem at all...it is what man has done to nature to the point it is a human problem. BIgger conduits? Lower creek beds? Complete redirection of the creek around the city of Trenton? There is no easy answer I am sure, if there is an answer at all. Dam it here and it will *** you elsewhere be it on railroad property or down the street at the neighbors.
I really forgot about the most important thing for RRs to accomplish to prevent many future problems.
1. Remove all trees from ROW that can fall on tracks or signal lines.
2. Plant low growing plants and shrubs that will hold the soil tightly.
The Ctaskill Mouuntain Railroad in Ulster County, NY really got it with both barrels. Mjor damage to the RW and a bridge washed out. Here's a link to photos: http://catskillmtrailroad.com/news.php
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
blue streak 1 I really forgot about the most important thing for RRs to accomplish to prevent many future problems. 1. Remove all trees from ROW that can fall on tracks or signal lines. 2. Plant low growing plants and shrubs that will hold the soil tightly.
It is a two edged sword. Use trees to dampen the noise and keep ROW out of public view to prevent tresspassing and to soak up water and prevent flooding or use low growing plants that need cropping to hold back the soil and water. The wider the ROW beyond the tracks the better the use of trees. But any and all plants' and their roots can wrap around or into cable, wires, and pipes of any kind. The real solution just might be the old solution. A track gang every five miles every day. Which is more costly: two or three guys on the payroll or the loss of and damage to property at the most, the delays of some trains at the least? Yes, prevention is the best thing, but so is observation and operation.
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