blue streak 1 I really forgot about the most important thing for RRs to accomplish to prevent many future problems. 1. Remove all trees from ROW that can fall on tracks or signal lines. 2. Plant low growing plants and shrubs that will hold the soil tightly.
I really forgot about the most important thing for RRs to accomplish to prevent many future problems.
1. Remove all trees from ROW that can fall on tracks or signal lines.
2. Plant low growing plants and shrubs that will hold the soil tightly.
It is a two edged sword. Use trees to dampen the noise and keep ROW out of public view to prevent tresspassing and to soak up water and prevent flooding or use low growing plants that need cropping to hold back the soil and water. The wider the ROW beyond the tracks the better the use of trees. But any and all plants' and their roots can wrap around or into cable, wires, and pipes of any kind. The real solution just might be the old solution. A track gang every five miles every day. Which is more costly: two or three guys on the payroll or the loss of and damage to property at the most, the delays of some trains at the least? Yes, prevention is the best thing, but so is observation and operation.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
The Ctaskill Mouuntain Railroad in Ulster County, NY really got it with both barrels. Mjor damage to the RW and a bridge washed out. Here's a link to photos: http://catskillmtrailroad.com/news.php
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
I've been there many times. This is in the middle of a city. The creek probalby has been challanged, changed, redirected, captured, and moved again and again and is surrounded for miles around not by earth and naturally opened spaces that will soak up the waters but by concrete and asphalt which will direct and redirect, hold and throw water over its banks wherever there is a low spot, crack, or other opening. It probably isn't a railroad problem at all...it is what man has done to nature to the point it is a human problem. BIgger conduits? Lower creek beds? Complete redirection of the creek around the city of Trenton? There is no easy answer I am sure, if there is an answer at all. Dam it here and it will *** you elsewhere be it on railroad property or down the street at the neighbors.
Found the following below that indicatesmuch of the damage in Trenton. One question have been answered as the NEC Trenton station flooding appears to come from Assunpine Creek?. Anyone ever been there? The picture of signal house that flooded appears to have a large amount of signal equipment.
http://www.septa.org/media/short/2011/09-02.html
moved post
Basically, Blue, there has to be time to clean things up, study what really happened, and see what might be able to be done. Overall, what you have proposed is wildly out of the question physically and fiscally. The big and unanswerable question is what does Mother Natur have in mind for tomorrow, next week, next month, next year and everyone of those days,weeks, months, and years hereafter? We're not there yet.
Slideshow of NJ TRANSIT. You need to drag cursor across pictures to get next one.
http://www.njtransit.com/var/var_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=HurricaneIreneTo
Some pictures from SEPTA last 2 appear to be the Norristown line??
http://www.septa.org/service/hurricane-irene.html
henry6 Most likely it is going to continue...the only way to raise the track would also mean raising the whole roadbed, the station, catenary, overhead bridges and roads and the River Line light rail and its structures and the track of the Bel-Del.
Most likely it is going to continue...the only way to raise the track would also mean raising the whole roadbed, the station, catenary, overhead bridges and roads and the River Line light rail and its structures and the track of the Bel-Del.
So there are several roads/streets bridge crossing overhead including the River line? Are there any buildings or just the bridges? Are the station tracks elevation lower than the PRR bridge over the Delaware? If so how did that happen?
Most likely it is going to continue...the only way to raise the track would also mean raising the whole roadbed, the station, catenary, overhead bridges and roads and the River Line light rail and its structures and the track of the Bel-Del. Among things. Yeah, really too out of reach to make any major changes.. Or dredge the Delaware River to the extent that it is lower than current so that it won't overflow. Keep the sewers and watercourses clear at all times. And I'm sure there have been many missives passed around addressing the situation since the railroad was built. And since.
If you look at the road infrastructure along with structural development and the River Line Light Rail, and everything else within a 10 or 20 mile radius of Trenton station, you will understand why the water problems are worse than ever. Then there is climate change which has brought some extremely heavy downpours and deep snows. And look at the area which the Delaware River drains....yes, about 20 or so miles into NJ but hundreds of miles into Pennsylvania and several hundred miles into the western Catskills of New York. Thus a deluge in Stamford, NY could possibly be felt or seen in Trenton days later. Reservoirs in NY on the west and east branches of the Delaware could also be control/uncontrol factors at the discretion of the NYC water department officials, too. The bridges across the Delaware at Trenton, particularly the stone railroad bridge can also hold back water so that it floods over its banks. If there were only one thing, one explanation, one little problem that could fix it, it would still take forever because of politics anyway, so let it flood.
I don't know the specific geography of the Trenton area, however, if the problem has existed since the railroad laid out it's line approximately 160 years ago, I expect the solution, if there is one is significantly more expensive than dealing with the occasional flood. The PRR in it's 'salad days' when it was the 'Standard Railroad of the World' would have had the financial ability to construct a solution if it was economically viable.
blue streak 1 blue streak 1: Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station? 6. Just wanted to know if this is going to continue for many years or if something could be done?
blue streak 1: Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
6. Just wanted to know if this is going to continue for many years or if something could be done?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Duplicate post
BaltACD When you start dumping 5 - 10 - 15 or 20 inches of rain over a watershed in less than 24 hours....the water has to go somewhere and that somewhere is down stream. The more dikes and levees that are built to protect inhabited areas...the more constrained the river becomes which leads to higher crests to flooding and increased water velocity, which will increase scour of anything anchored in the waters path. blue streak 1: Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
When you start dumping 5 - 10 - 15 or 20 inches of rain over a watershed in less than 24 hours....the water has to go somewhere and that somewhere is down stream. The more dikes and levees that are built to protect inhabited areas...the more constrained the river becomes which leads to higher crests to flooding and increased water velocity, which will increase scour of anything anchored in the waters path.
Guess I did not make my question clear.
1. The south end of the Trenton station appears that it floods with some regularity.
2. Is this because it ducks under part of Trenton and gets too low in relation to the Delaware river?
3. How long of a track section does this flooding occurr?
4. Is there any financially feasible way to raise tracks in the area of the station?
5. Has any publication ever addressed this problem?
Ilene pumped out 5 to 20 inches of rain over thousands of sqare miles of various watersheds - The Lord can only calculate how many gallons the storm dumped on the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.
blue streak 1 Can anyone address the reason for the repeat flooding that occurrs at Trenton station?
The Delaware Rive is a long river into two regions of Upstate NY with several dams and resevoirs and with tributaries into the Catskills and Poconos. The more water that is dumped in for longer stretches upstream the more water comes downstream either faster and heavier or for longer periods of time. Then there is debris which cannot be accounted for ahead of time that will block bridges, culverts, etc, causing erosion and collapsing of structures and more flooding. If it were all predictable, it would be no problem, but...
Update on the commuter situation Thurs. 9/1/11 11AM: LIRR is all back and running. MNRR is too, east of the Hudson with Waterbury line having electric problems at grade crossings slowing trains down; MNRR has also declared emergency powers to rebuild the PJ line. NJT is also completely back in business except for some ongoing repair work slowing things down and RV line Bound Brook station still being passed by because of flooding. SEPTA is busing Trenton to Levittown.
A significant amount of N.Bergen and Philadelphia traffic the normally runs via Selkirk has been rerouted to operate via Cumberland.
henry6What I have not heard, however, is if the Massena line is open north from Syracuse; nobody's mentioned it.
I heard the DS giving a southbound (probably Q620 or an alumina train - I didn't catch the symbol) paper tonight. The problem is that Q620/Q621 are Massena/Selkirk trains. They can get to Dewitt OK, but it depends on where the traffic is going from there.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Looks like LIRR has Montauk trains up and running again tonight but Ronkonkoma to Greenport not back yet. And MNRR has delays on Waterbury line because of electrical proglems with signals and highway crossings; Danbury line is suspended.
Wed. 8/31/11 4:15PM. NJT has opened the last remaining line, the Boonton Line west of Montclair to Denville (several of the 1000 series trains Hoboken to Dover, Mt. Arlington, Lake Hopactcong, Mt. Olive, and Hackettstown had been detoured, presumably express, via Summit and Morristown up to this afternoon) with no stop at Mt. View where water still inundates the parking lot. On the Raritan Valley line, all is open but Bound Brook remains a no stop as it is still flooded. Sufferen to Port Jervis remains OOS until further notice, some real problems there and not just as far as Harriman. MNRR is back in service opening the Harlem Line from Southeast to Wassaic this afternoon but Danbury Line still not working right.
Freight wise, pics of Central Bridge on the D&H/CP look bad track wise, bridge ok, with Friday the announced target but someone snuck in a "maybe tonight"; we'll have to see what happens. CSX reportedly got one track back through the Mohawk Valley and is starting to move their own traffic and whatever Amtrak trains there might be. NS keeps reporting a wash out "near BInghamton" but I don't really know what they may be referring to as there has been trains west of Binghamton right along and service via CP to Scranton and south has not been reportly effected but east to NJ via Allentown has been. NYS&W is ok north to Syracuse, had some washouts near Utica, is ok to Port Jervis bun not east of there yet; both NJT/MNRR and NS have problems there, NS on the Hudson Secondary, and NYSW east of Warwick, all of which hope to be cleaned up by Friday.
Watched the News this morning, and there are some NE areas that are looking pretty grim for fast repairs, and getting back into operational systems.
From lohud.com. [linked here:
http://www.lohud.com/article/20110831/NEWS03/108310343/Port-Jervis-rail-line-closed-repairs-may-take-months?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|News|s
Their headline:
"The signal system is very, very compromised," Anders said. "The track doesn't even exist anymore."
The damage includes:
• Three washout locations of 1,000 feet each near Sloatsburg
• A 400-foot section of track south of Sloatsburg washed out to a depth of 8 feet
• Significant damage to several railroad bridges
While service has resumed across much of the MTA system, other areas were hit extremely hard by Hurricane Irene. Metro-North Railroad’s Port Jervis Line has sustained catastrophic damage that will require months to repair. Shorter-term recovery efforts are underway to restore a number of other LIRR and Metro-North branches.
The full extent of the damage to the Port Jervis Line has not been determined, as much of the line remains inaccessible and under water. Through a combination of observations made on the ground and from a helicopter, Metro-North work crews have observed significant washouts and fallen trees at numerous locations along the tracks west of Suffern. Some of the more significant issues that have been identified include:.."
Judging from the above posters and their links and these links as well, the damage to the Mass Transit infrastructure of NJ/NY area is awfully ugly--Catastrophic is mentioned several times in the links(?)
Word this morning is that CSX has one track open down the Mohawk but....that doesn't mean all is open and moveing. Between CSX's backed up and regular trains and the Amtrak schedules, it is doubtful CSX can handle other's delayed trains.....
This is presenteing quite a bind for CSX, CP, NS and NYSW at this point. CP-D&H is out at Central Bridge, NS/CSAO across NJ has problems, and NYSW is out east of Port Jervis, on the Hudson Seccndary and thier own line east of there. Friday is the mantra heard as to when things will be open. Meanwhile traffic is piling up in places like Binghamton awaiting ability to get to Albany, New England and Montreal and to NJ wether own tracks or detour arrangments. Today is Wednesday.
What I have not heard, however, is if the Massina line is open north from Syracuse; nobody's mentioned it.
CSX Chicago Line (former NYC water level route) at Amsterdam, NY:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archivethumbs.aspx?id=71555
NJ TRANSIT is working to restore most rail service tomorrow, August 30, in the wake of residual impacts from Hurricane Irene. Bus and light rail service will operate on a regular weekday schedule. Crews continue to work around the clock to make necessary repairs and reconstruct areas of the railroad damaged by the storm. As NJ TRANSIT works toward restoring the system to normal operation, customers are advised of possible delays and cancellations due to remaining storm damage.
NJ TRANSIT is advising customers of the following:
Rail Service:
Bus Service:
For a complete list of bus service adjustments, view Travel Alerts & Advisories.
Light Rail Service:
mnrr bulletin for tomorrow
Recovery Efforts Continue While service has resumed across much of the MTA system, other areas were hit extremely hard by Hurricane Irene. Metro-North Railroad’s Port Jervis Line has sustained catastrophic damage that will require months to repair. Shorter-term recovery efforts are underway to restore a number of other LIRR and Metro-North branches. The full extent of the damage to the Port Jervis Line has not been determined, as much of the line remains inaccessible and under water. Through a combination of observations made on the ground and from a helicopter, Metro-North work crews have observed significant washouts and fallen trees at numerous locations along the tracks west of Suffern. Some of the more significant issues that have been identified include: Three washout locations of 1,000 feet each near Sloatsburg A 400-foot section of track washed out to a depth of 8 feet south of Sloatsburg Significant damage to several railroad bridges Suspected significant damage to the signal system, which is exposed and under water. Metro-North will retain an engineering firm to perform a thorough inspection of 24 miles of infrastructure to determine the full extent of necessary repairs and determine required environmental permitting. Major construction work would follow. It will take months to rebuild the track, signal and bridge infrastructure required to reinstitute train service. The exact duration will be determined by the investigation. Metro-North worked with Orange County to develop an alternate service plan for the 2,300 people who use the Port Jervis Line each weekday. Bus service will take customers between the Harriman Station and train service at the Ramsey/Route 17 station. Buses will follow the train schedule. Metro-North will seek to expand the bus options available as road and station conditions improve in Orange County. In addition, Metro-North customers can use their Port Jervis Line commutation tickets on the Newburgh-Beacon Ferry or on the Newburgh-Beacon Bus. Port Jervis Line commutation tickets also will be honored for travel on the Hudson Line. Customers from Salisbury Mills west to Port Jervis can park at Harriman and Beacon or Cortlandt on the Hudson Line, where their valid LAZ parking permits will be honored. A permit does not guarantee a space. Elsewhere, Metro-North and the LIRR are experiencing local power outages that are preventing signals and grade crossings from functioning. In the meantime, crews are engaged in removing fallen trees, pumping floodwaters and inspecting rails and switches in order to have the tracks ready to restore train service as soon as power is restored to signals and crossings. Monitor MTA.info and the MTA's email and text message alerts for the latest service status.
The full extent of the damage to the Port Jervis Line has not been determined, as much of the line remains inaccessible and under water. Through a combination of observations made on the ground and from a helicopter, Metro-North work crews have observed significant washouts and fallen trees at numerous locations along the tracks west of Suffern. Some of the more significant issues that have been identified include:
Metro-North will retain an engineering firm to perform a thorough inspection of 24 miles of infrastructure to determine the full extent of necessary repairs and determine required environmental permitting. Major construction work would follow. It will take months to rebuild the track, signal and bridge infrastructure required to reinstitute train service. The exact duration will be determined by the investigation.
Metro-North worked with Orange County to develop an alternate service plan for the 2,300 people who use the Port Jervis Line each weekday. Bus service will take customers between the Harriman Station and train service at the Ramsey/Route 17 station. Buses will follow the train schedule. Metro-North will seek to expand the bus options available as road and station conditions improve in Orange County.
In addition, Metro-North customers can use their Port Jervis Line commutation tickets on the Newburgh-Beacon Ferry or on the Newburgh-Beacon Bus. Port Jervis Line commutation tickets also will be honored for travel on the Hudson Line. Customers from Salisbury Mills west to Port Jervis can park at Harriman and Beacon or Cortlandt on the Hudson Line, where their valid LAZ parking permits will be honored. A permit does not guarantee a space.
Elsewhere, Metro-North and the LIRR are experiencing local power outages that are preventing signals and grade crossings from functioning. In the meantime, crews are engaged in removing fallen trees, pumping floodwaters and inspecting rails and switches in order to have the tracks ready to restore train service as soon as power is restored to signals and crossings. Monitor MTA.info and the MTA's email and text message alerts for the latest service status.
Suffern to Hoboken is hourly seven days a week plus half hourly at some times of the day and more during peaks...so there is not problem there...it was Erie's main commuter operation. Getting equipment out of PJ could go west to BInghamton as I am told the route is OK but where will it go from BInghamton? D&H route to Schenectady is OAS as is Conrail Shared Assets/NS across NJ east of Allentown. NYSW to Syracuse is just as useless at the moment as CSX is out through the Mohawk Valley. Stay tuned. We should know more by or duirng the weekend.
August 30, 20115:00 p.m. EDT
Amtrak is restoring much of the service along the East Coast, with a full Acela Express schedule between Washington and Boston, and most Northeast Regional trains between Richmond/Lynchburg/Washington and Boston, effective Wednesday, August 31. Engineering teams have made repairs to restore service after flooding between Philadelphia and New York, subject to residual delays near Trenton, N.J.
Also available now for booking are most of the Empire Service trains between New York and Albany/Rensselaer, the Adirondack (Trains 68 & 69) between New York and Montreal and all of the Keystone Service trains between Harrisburg and Philadelphia (most continuing to New York). All of the Shuttle trains between New Haven, Conn., and Springfield, Mass., will now operate. As previously planned, the Vermonter (Trains 55 & 56) will operate between Washington and Springfield, Mass.
Earlier, Amtrak announced the Auto Train operating between Sanford, Fla., and Lorton, Va., will resume on Wednesday, Aug. 31. Service will also resume on that date for the full New York-Miami routes of the Silver Star (Trains 91 & 92) and Silver Meteor (Trains 97 & 98) and the full New York-Atlanta-New Orleans route of the Crescent (Trains 19 & 20).
Service remains suspended for these routes or segments:
henry6 Equipment stranded in Port Jervis has to be serviced in NJ and it just might sometime this weekend or early next week.
Equipment stranded in Port Jervis has to be serviced in NJ and it just might sometime this weekend or early next week.
Henry: Any chance that the MNRR equipment can be brought out going west on CP from Port Jervis? Is that route blocked?
Do you expect a schedule curtailment on that route since Suffern is just inside NY state?
Is there enough traffic Suffern - Hoboken to continue the route?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.