I haven't seen this mentioned in any of the notes in this thread (although, since I can't immediately find my glasses, i may have overlooked it), but the Amtrak locomotive almost certainly had a camera, and thus recorded at least part of the incident. I'm also pretty sure that NTSB will do whatever it can to prevent the film from becoming public and showing up on internet sites. The tragic Metrolink Chatsworth accident was also recorded by a locomotive camera (on the UP loco) and, to my knowledge, NTSB has never let go of the film. I understand that NTSB's sensitivity to this issue arose from an earlier BNSF accident where a copy of a locomotive camera film that was given only to government officials ended up on the internet.
Falcon48 I haven't seen this mentioned in any of the notes in this thread (although, since I can't immediately find my glasses, i may have overlooked it), but the Amtrak locomotive almost certainly had a camera, and thus recorded at least part of the incident. I'm also pretty sure that NTSB will do whatever it can to prevent the film from becoming public and showing up on internet sites. The tragic Metrolink Chatsworth accident was also recorded by a locomotive camera (on the UP loco) and, to my knowledge, NTSB has never let go of the film. I understand that NTSB's sensitivity to this issue arose from an earlier BNSF accident where a copy of a locomotive camera film that was given only to government officials ended up on the internet.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
I had a conversation with one of the truck drivers that deliver to the paper mill I work at and here is his take on the wreck: He said it is common for truckers from the same company to make bets on who can complete their runs first and the payoff is usually bought drinks at the local watering hole or food at the local eatery.
He surmises the lead trucker had probaly traded positions off and on with the other truckers in the convoy and when he finally took the lead saw an opportunity to use the train as a "blocker" to maintain position and only at the last minute realized he couldn't make it and hit the brakes. This trucker also figured that the 300 foot skid marks were probably the result of speeds in excess of 90 to 100 mph as also evidenced by the tractor almost totally being engulfed by the train car.
I can't say weather this is accurate or not but it is interesting to hear a viewpoint from a trucker's perspective.
Pat.
I saw a story in the LA Times to the effect that the 2 other truck drivers said they saw the approaching train clearly and were slowing down. Visibility is quite good at that crossing. They were surprised to see the lead truck maintaining his speed until well past a safe stopping distance. He locked up his brakes and skidded into the train. I think they said that he jackknifed his trailer also. I have not seen this account anywhere else, so I wonder at its accuracy. The LA Times is usually pretty good on these things. Their reporter who did the follow-ups on the Chatsworth crash did a very good job.
Jack
To the Trains staff:
One thing I would like to learn is details of the four speeding tickets that the driver has recently gotten. How much over the speed limit were they, and what was the speed limit where he got them?
[quote user="Jack_S"]
Yardmaster01 [Pat] wrote
[/quote]
Bucyrus asked, AS WELL:
As someone with OTR driving experience ( over 20 years), and then in administration and customer service as well as safety. I'd say that Pat [Yardmast01] description is a pretty good description of what took place(in part). Jack's description as relayed from the LA Times is a potentially accurate description of some of the mechanics of what took place, as well.
From the descriptions in several publications on the 'Net. The Truck was a set of 'doubles', bottom dump trailers, that were at the time of the incident,empty. An empty rig of that description in a hard braking application becomes unstable, suffers from the momentum of the truck's velocity down the road. Effecting the ability to stop normally could be an uneven braking action causing an axle to 'hop'. possibly complicated by the driver who might have been more interested in what was happening behind him ( watching in his mirrors for one of the other trucks to overtake and pass him). The matter of what had been 'bet' by the other drivers involved in the 'race' to get back to the loading point. I cannot speak to the specifics of the company policy on driver's pay, in this circumstance. May drivers in material hauling and dumping operations are paid by the load and a factor is of course weight of the load x number of loads hauled. So speed to get empty and get back to get the next load vs. how late would the crew loading would be working on loading, becomes a major consideration.
As to the number of speeding tickets, the rules have changed on ticket numbers a driver may accumulate, over the last ten years. As some of the other poster here have indicated, some of the DOT rules and laws have become more onerous over time, as well as the rules of insurance carriers as a factor as well for all who drive trucks. Many states view OTR rigs as large targets of opportunity for revenue production. But the pay system pushes the driver to make as much as they can earn by increasing the number of trips made, which by nature implies, that overloading and speeding can be part and parcel of that system of calculation for driver pay.
Cell phone records will certainly be checked?
Crandell
One on his Driving Record with CVSA 2010 in effect now 3 or more tickets in less than 3 years his CDL should have been pulled already. 2 2 or more 15 or more over he is DONE peroid by any insurance company as a Driver of Any Commerical Vechile. 3 with Fuel costs were they are it is rare but not unheard of to have a truck that is Geared to run over 100 but Computered limted to a max of 70 mph. What needs to be done to solve alot of the rushing around is getting rid of the JIT delivery system. Trucks and Trains are NOT your warehouses all we are is the shipment system not what is holding your InVENTORY or the parts you need for that shifts production.
Just-In-Time delivery is not going to go away because that's what the customer wants. Fail to provide that level of service and the customer will look elsewhere. The goods in transit are still accounted for as inventory even though they aren't sitting in a warehouse.
As long as the railroads and trucks can and will provide Just In Time service, and are able to charge at a good rate of return, then why not? If it means stacking trains one behind the other on the main so nothing can get through, well, that's a different story.
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Bucyrus To the Trains staff: One thing I would like to learn is details of the four speeding tickets that the driver has recently gotten. How much over the speed limit were they, and what was the speed limit where he got them?
Bucyrus —
We don't have a full idea, but here are a few tidbits. Thanks to Angela Pusztai-Pasternak for digging into this stuff:
He received a ticket in Fresno County, Calif., in 5-09 for 64 in a 55. In 9-09, he received a ticket in Alabama for driving between 11 and 20 mph over the speed limit. He was forced to surrender his non-commercial driver's license some time between 2002 and 2005 for unknown reasons.
Hopefully more detail will come out in the next few weeks.
Thanks Andy. I sense that the delivery of news on this crash is stalling as comes to the record of the driver. I get the feeling that the driver was given a pass on bad driving for some reason, and that this will prove embarrassing to the system and its authorities. Just a hunch.
I fear we will never get a explanation that will satisfy anyone.
A member of another BB I use that lives in the area of the accident said these trucks are often seen running 80 mph or so.....accepted as SOP for a long time.
A sad event on so many levels.
6000 miles on Amtrak in words and pictures www.currtail.com
Andy: Were the tractors owned by the company or were they individually owned?. When I drove back in 1992-1994 the company I worked for had event recorders that told if you were speeding over the company's posted speed limit. Good for over 100 previous hours. Electronic recorders were being installed that also acted as a speed governor as well so the only way you could speed was downhill. These recorders prevented a few speeding tickets from being enforced after a download and also nailed a few people (ie 55 in a 35 zone)
The possibility of an event recorder surviving in the crashed truck is low (no airline type crash resistance) but the trailing trucks if installed would be very enlightning. Have no idea of capabilities now especially with GPS. Ownership of the tractors would be important in this case as drivers may have had max allowed speed changed.
Big trucking companies might have event recorders and might even govern or limit speeds if only for fuel consumption purposes. Even at that the drivers have reputations of how to get around those rules and those recorders. Back in the 19th Century the railroad engineer was the "cowboy" of the mechanical horses, today it is the truck driver. Both are heralded in song and story for the glory of working for the man and beating him at his game agains all odds in curageous battle of man vs. machine vs. happenstance for the glory of it! Drive any interstate and probably 90% of the truck around you are driving in excess of the speed limit and half of them are more than 10 miles per hour over it. And they bob and weave in and out of lane in order to maintain their speed. But look the the sill of any trailer: if it arches up, it is empty; if it is fairly flat, it is properly loaded; if it sags, it is probably over loaded. Then guage the speed against your speedometer and know who to stay away from. But the maverick trucker seems to rule if only in the eyes of smaller vehicle drivers (not that they do things 100% right, either...speeding, weaving, too slow, not respecting trucks....).
Andy: Lets have a look at the crossing protection. The pictures seemed to indicate pole line signaling and indications?. If so then maybe the crossing signals are operated on a fixed distance circuit? If so the amount of warning time at 79 MPH will be an interesting figure vs freight train times (see below). If it is a constant time circuit that will also be revealing?
Next: Are the crossing signals of the older 2 - 2 1/2 inch lens types or of the newer 6" lens types? Are LED light bulbs installed behind the lens? Are the crossing gates of the short stubby type or did they cover the whole one direction highway ROW? Were warning bulbs installed on the gates? How many times in the last 6 months or whatever time frame have the gates been broken off by run thrus and if so have any violater been cited ?
Another factor may be too many trips over the crossing. How often did the driver go over that crossing? What is the ruling grade for trains going in that direction? Does the ruling grade slow the speed of freight trains in that direction normally?.
Could driver have "seen" a train believing it was a freight and thinking he could beat a freight?. Is the angle as viewed by the driver essentially showing headlights that may have obscured it as a passenger train?.
Thanks for all your staff research on this sensless wreck.
blue streak 1 Andy: Lets have a look at the crossing protection.
Andy: Lets have a look at the crossing protection.
Yes, I would like to learn exactly what crossing protection system was in place here. I would particularly like to know what sort of advance warning signs were in place as well as their distance from the crossing. This advance warning method varies quite a bit from state to state.
blue streak 1 Andy: Were the tractors owned by the company or were they individually owned?. When I drove back in 1992-1994 the company I worked for had event recorders that told if you were speeding over the company's posted speed limit. Good for over 100 previous hours. Electronic recorders were being installed that also acted as a speed governor as well so the only way you could speed was downhill. These recorders prevented a few speeding tickets from being enforced after a download and also nailed a few people (ie 55 in a 35 zone) The possibility of an event recorder surviving in the crashed truck is low (no airline type crash resistance) but the trailing trucks if installed would be very enlightning. Have no idea of capabilities now especially with GPS. Ownership of the tractors would be important in this case as drivers may have had max allowed speed changed.
Both Henry6 and Blue Streak1 have mentioned the EDR [Event Data Recorder] installation in heavy trucks.
Such a device has been around for a number of years. In its original installations, it was the Computer for the truck engine. It was used to control RPM and Fuel flows.
Important data could be downloaded by specially trained accident investigators ( Ga. Hwy Patrol was very proficient and in the event of a fatality would remove the computer from the vehicle and forward it to their specialists for downloading). Data would provide information on RPM run. The time spans that those RPM were maintained. Stops and their time limits could be determined. ( would tell breaks and sleep intervals). Also instances of "Hard Brake Applications" could be determined. When compiled along with info from a drivers Log Book, the information would be a salvation, or Damming for the driver, in a Court setting.
You can bet that either the Nevada Highway Patrol or the Feds have that computer, and or an EVR from the involved truck.
http://www.heavytruckedr.org/getting-data.html
The above link is to a site that lays out fnctions of an EVR or ECM module.
FTL:"...The first thing to understand about HV EDRs is that the most common ones are part of a truck's engine control module (ECM). Other HV EDRs may be part of a safety feature, such as a collision avoidance or rollover-protection system..."
CSSHEGEWISCH Just-In-Time delivery is not going to go away because that's what the customer wants. Fail to provide that level of service and the customer will look elsewhere. The goods in transit are still accounted for as inventory even though they aren't sitting in a warehouse.
True, however there have been moves to make the customer pay for some of the damages as well and rightfully so.
Basically the old per diem per car kept just in time delivery and holds from being attractive for the customer. However, the Staggers Act changed that and so the rails were able to negotiate a rate that made sense (and dollars) for them. Now it is cheaper for the shipper in most cases to use the railcar/container as a part of the assembly line. I am sure some bottom liner has that all figure out.
I haven't yet seen the answers to these questions:
1) What was train speed? (79 mph?)
2) Did any cars derail?
3) Did debris sever the train line or otherwise the collision itself cause train brakes to go into emergency? (Or did the engineer big-hole it after the collision occurred?)
4) When the train finally stopped, where was rear end relative to the grade crossing?
Incidentally, when I rode #5 in April 2011, the sleeping cars were on rear end.
Henry:Gotta disagree on your assessment of truck and speeding, at least here in the Midwest.
Majority of trucks on the interstates are set up for 65mph driving. It creates a problem as speedlimits for cars can be up to 70mph and thus you have issues with slower moving traffic. Majority of car traffic will be at 75-90mph and the weaving in and out of the lanes is very dangerous. Frankly, I really hate driving on interstates these days.
Then, you will have a truck driver that is geared for 67mph pass a 65mph truck and it takes about 3 miles to pass. In the meanwhile cars back up and stackup.
Ed
I could only wish for such a high speed truck pass....Truck 1 at 65 MPH and Truck 2 at 65.0001
MP173 Henry:Then, you will have a truck driver that is geared for 67mph pass a 65mph truck and it takes about 3 miles to pass. In the meanwhile cars back up and stackup. Ed
Henry:Then, you will have a truck driver that is geared for 67mph pass a 65mph truck and it takes about 3 miles to pass. In the meanwhile cars back up and stackup.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
On I80, I81, I84, I87, and many other four lane roads here in the east a 70 mph truck is often at least the norm although I will say there are more 65mph'ers than used to be. Still more often than not I'm passed by trucks while I am at 70!
I expect the speed of the truck, upon approach, can be precisely calculated if it shows up in a video, but I am not sure if such a video exists. The testimony of the Amtrak engineer and of the followig truckers may shed light on the speed. We know the speed of the train. We need to know the speed of the truck.
I am a semi-retired semi driver and a life long railfan. Zooming in on your Google map link you can see the terrain is desert flat for many miles in all directions. That a railroad crossing existed at that location could have been seen for miles before the actual crossing, occupied or not. Scanning the horizon -- both to the left and to the right -- for any signs of an oncoming train would be the minimum responsibility for a professional driver behaving responsibly. Apparently this driver was not behaving responsibly and people died. The driver who died had spent enough years as a driver to amass an inordinately large number of driving infractions. He should probably NOT have been driving. The company he was driving for had also acquired operating infractions and should have had their authority lifted. Too late, too bad. As far as strengthening the pre-crossing warnings,why not a system such as the one Ohio uses for some of its traffic signals on high speed highways. At a calculated distance before a traffic-lighted intersection, a warning light will begin to flash if the traffic light further ahead will be red when you get there. Kind of like the distant signal informing engineers what the home signal indication is likely to be.
blue streak, Andy put a Google link in one of his comments which will to take you to a map of the crossing. If you crank 'er down to the maximum mag, you can get a photographic view of that very area. You will see it is totally flat all around and I can't imagine anyone not being able to see a train approaching long before arriving at the crossing.
curt1124 I am a semi-retired semi driver and a life long railfan. Zooming in on your Google map link you can see the terrain is desert flat for many miles in all directions. That a railroad crossing existed at that location could have been seen for miles before the actual crossing, occupied or not. Scanning the horizon -- both to the left and to the right -- for any signs of an oncoming train would be the minimum responsibility for a professional driver behaving responsibly. Apparently this driver was not behaving responsibly and people died. The driver who died had spent enough years as a driver to amass an inordinately large number of driving infractions. He should probably NOT have been driving. The company he was driving for had also acquired operating infractions and should have had their authority lifted. Too late, too bad. As far as strengthening the pre-crossing warnings,why not a system such as the one Ohio uses for some of its traffic signals on high speed highways. At a calculated distance before a traffic-lighted intersection, a warning light will begin to flash if the traffic light further ahead will be red when you get there. Kind of like the distant signal informing engineers what the home signal indication is likely to be.
Not according to the FMCSA:
http://www.safersys.org/query.asp?searchtype=ANY&query_type=queryCarrierSnapshot&query_param=USDOT&original_query_param=NAME&query_string=159572&original_query_string=JOHN DAVIS TRUCKING COMPANY INC
Hard to say what or who is to blame as all the facts aren't in. It does seem strange that a professional driver would run into a train like that...and all the more reason that there might be something yet that we don't understand...a mechanical problem..a driver medical problem perhaps..
Ulrich, I stand corrected. My comments about the trucking company were based on the impression I took from the article in the Reno Gazette Journal on line a couple days ago. They are, however, being sued for allowing the late mister Valli to drive for them without adequate training. This is obviously a still unfolding story and likely will be for some time to come.
It would be interesting to see an animated diagram (as if looking down from above) second-by-second showing the truck and train positions.
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