We've been getting a lot of questions coming in about the Amtrak wreck in Nevada. We'll have an update on News Wire this morning that should answer a lot of questions, but I'd like to open us up to questions from the audience. What would you like to know about the accident, the equipment involved, and the history of Amtrak wrecks? Post your question here and we'll pose it to our writers, editors, and contacts in the field. I can't guarantee we'll be able to answer every question, but we'll keep an eye on what people are asking on this thread and do our best.
Now, the floor is open. What would you like to know?
How about some sort of post-mortem on the findings of various wrecks from the NTSB, FRA, etc? Which resulted in recommendations that were implemented?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Nice thing to do, Andy!
I think that most of my questions aren't going to be able to be answered for a while: the investigators have to do their work. Questions like the death toll can be answered with updates. Questions about the condition of the driver or the truck, or the crossing protection, will be borne out only after an investigation.
I will breathe a lot easier after hearing any official statement that absolves Amtrak and UP from any blame or responsibility here.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
The only story I see on the newswire is the one posted 6/24. My concern is the confusion surrounding the event including reports of from 1 to 6 deaths and an unconfirmed number injured. What I've heard is that the truck was probably going at least 70mph legally on the open highway and left at least 300 feet of skid marks with one speculation that the truck could have hit the train while doing only 15 mph! It will be interesting to see how the investigation goes and what it finds.
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Thanks, guys. Obviously, a lot of the questions we all have won't be answered until NTSB issues its report. That typically takes a year or more. Bob Johnston is working on a News Wire story as we speak that will bring everything up to date.
Given that Don Phillips has retired from day to day coverage of railroad events, it will be good to have other reporters with knowledge of the field getting the story.
In my comments on the topic, I tried to be clear on what I could see from photos and video (I was able to get the damaged car numbers from photos) and what was just a guess. No doubt you will stick to the facts and be clear on any questions that will remain unanswered pending completion of the investigation.
One thing I wonder. Given that the Superliner equipped trains usually have sleepers at the head end, why the a coach second behind the transition/dorm? I know the consist setup is not locked in stone, but it seems possible that was a specific reason for the consist on this train. The change from the usual arrangement may have saved many from injury or death, as the coach may have been lightly occupied as compared to a sleeper. During this busy travel season, sleeper accomidations on the CZ are usually sold out.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
I am a bit surprised by all the fire. A dose of diesel and an 80 mph wind is a scary combination, but could sprinklers make a difference?
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
Is this wreck just sitting there while they measure everything or will Hulcher come in and cut it all up for scrap and open the track. In the past they kept the wreckage around as "evidence" for a long while. I would think that UP and Amtrak are anxious to get back to normal operations.
creepycrank Is this wreck just sitting there while they measure everything or will Hulcher come in and cut it all up for scrap and open the track. In the past they kept the wreckage around as "evidence" for a long while. I would think that UP and Amtrak are anxious to get back to normal operations.
Bob Johnston responds:
The NTSB is looking at the burned-out cars at the scene and has also requested that coach 35006 (smoke damaged, but movable) stay at Sparks so it can be examined.
Jay —
Bob Johnston's story is going to be posted to wire momentarily. Here's his answer, which is contained in the story:
Owing to a lengthy disruption of the Empire Builder by North Dakota flooding at Minot, the Zephyr's summer-only Chicago-Denver "cut-off" sleeper has been running through to Emeryville to provide additional transcontinental capacity. This accounts for the decision to place the three sleepers at the end of the train; it also allows a coach attendant to handle the four roomettes in the transition sleeper sold for revenue space (the others are occupied by crew members and a few are set aside for Amtrak business travel).
henry6 What I've heard is that the truck was probably going at least 70mph legally on the open highway and left at least 300 feet of skid marks with one speculation that the truck could have hit the train while doing only 15 mph!
What I've heard is that the truck was probably going at least 70mph legally on the open highway and left at least 300 feet of skid marks with one speculation that the truck could have hit the train while doing only 15 mph!
I believe I said that. I figured that if the truck skidded 300 feet, it must have decelerated a lot. But with a 70 mph speed limit, the truck may have been doing 70-80 mph. Here is a link to a report saying that the truck could have required as much as 465 ft. to stop if it were going 70 mph:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-nevada-train-crash-20110626,0,4724347.story
The engineer of the train probably has a pretty good read on the impact speed. The impact speed may have been higher than my suggestion of 15 mph. Certainly there was horrific damage to the train, but the fact that it rips through several cars is an indication of the affect of the train’s speed, which also contributed to the damage. So, overall, I might raise my estimate to 25 mph at impact. But at speeds much higher, I would have expected the truck to completely pierce the rail car it hit, possibly derailing the train.
In regard to questions for Trains, I would like to hear the description of the collision from the two associated truck drivers who were following the lead truck, and also from the Amtrak engineer. I would like to know if either of the following drivers was talking to the lead driver on a cell phone at the time of the crash.
Also, the news has reported that the crossing was at right angles to the road, but one report says the crossing is 45 degrees to the road. I would like to have that clarified and to learn the truck direction in relation to the crossing angle.
[snip] "
Owing to a lengthy disruption of the Empire Builder by North Dakota flooding at Minot, the Zephyr's summer-only Chicago-Denver "cut-off" sleeper has been running through to Emeryville to provide additional transcontinental capacity. This accounts for the decision to place the three sleepers at the end of the train; it also allows a coach attendant to handle the four roomettes in the transition sleeper sold for revenue space (the others are occupied by crew members and a few are set aside for Amtrak business travel)."
This, however, does not explain why the sleepers were on the rear the two times that my wife and I rode the CZ in April. I have the impression that "sleepers on the rear" is the standard operation on this train (I am not about to go into Salt Lake City to check the location of the sleepers every night, though). We had to walk the length of the train both times (wb each time); when boarding, we traveled around the engine and then back to our car; when detraining, we moved the length of the train until we could get around the engine before we went into the station. We were thankful it was not snowing when we came back.
Johnny
Henry —
Here's Google maps' view of the wreck site.
It looks to me like it is a 45 degree intersection, or something similar to it. The trucks were driving northbound on Route 95.
We'll keep working our sources to get more details about what the following truck drivers saw, as well as the engineer. At this point, we don't know anything more than what's being posted in the mainstream media.
Best,
Andy and Bob J.
Thanks for covering my question.
By the way, I am taking the CZ to Denver early next month, so I have checked the train schedule and am also watching performance status. I noted that at the time of the wreck, the CZ was running almost 5 hours late. Due in Reno 8:30am.
Sometimes fate...
Bucyrus In regard to questions for Trains, I would like to hear the description of the collision from the two associated truck drivers who were following the lead truck, and also from the Amtrak engineer. I would like to know if either of the following drivers was talking to the lead driver on a cell phone at the time of the crash.
Maglev I am a bit surprised by all the fire. A dose of diesel and an 80 mph wind is a scary combination, but could sprinklers make a difference?
Dan
"AFFF" = "Aqueous Film-Forming Foam", a water-based foam used to suppress hydrocarbon/ petroleum-based fires. See: http://www.nrl.navy.mil/accomplishments/materials/aqueous-film-foam/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_fighting_foam
- Paul North.
There are "clean agents" available that could probably provide some first aid fire suppression without the issues (like freezing) that would come from water or a foam solution.
But that would still be non-revenue dead weight (not to mention the revenue space that would be taken up). The cylinders can be 3-4' in diameter, depending on capacity.
And it also assumes that in an incident such as this (which was a tad unusual, given the whole situation) that the fire suppression system remains intact.
As cold as it sounds, you also have to consider return on investment. While situations such as this incident are horrific, are major fires on Amtrak cars really so common as to require the thousands of dollars per car for initial installation and the cost of the ongoing maintenance? I'd opine that the vast majority of fires on Amtrak cars are well within the capabilities of the fire extinguishers they already carry.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Jim Wrinn got an email question: From what material are Superliner car shells made? The answer is stainless steel.
......I'm certainly not the fire suppression expert. But with up to a couple hundred gallons of diesel fuel exploding all at once....I doubt if any {on board system}, could deal with a fire like this explosion would produce. {Built in sprinklers, etc...}.
Quentin
I have ridden #6 three times over the past two years. And I have ridden #5 once during the same period. All four trips were between San Francisco and Denver. On #6 the sleepers were at the front of the train, but on the #5 that I rode the sleepers were at the rear of the train. I had a sleeper on on four trips. If I remember correctly, my trip on #5 was in February or early March.
Its early yet. Lots of stories on the net and lots of comments and speculation, too. One story says the trucking company had numeroud violations against it including one truck with bald enought tires to be taken off the road. So? What is normal violation number for trucking company that size in Nevada? Anyplace else? It is so easy to take shots at the driver and his company and trucks in general at this early point in time. Only accusation, and the most accurate, will be from the authorites at NTSP and Nevada State Police, when the investigation is complete.
henry6 Its early yet. Lots of stories on the net and lots of comments and speculation, too. One story says the trucking company had numeroud violations against it including one truck with bald enought tires to be taken off the road. So? What is normal violation number for trucking company that size in Nevada? Anyplace else? It is so easy to take shots at the driver and his company and trucks in general at this early point in time. Only accusation, and the most accurate, will be from the authorites at NTSP and Nevada State Police, when the investigation is complete.
Henry, I half agree with you. The story says there were seven violations, with the bald tires issue being the most serious. I agree that it would be helpful to know whether seven violations is a high number for a trucking company of that size. I consider myself a good driver, but that doesn't mean I've never gotten a ticket or wrecked a car on an icy road. The story I'm looking at admits as much, saying, "It's not clear whether the spotty record was typical in the trucking industry."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/06/27/2011-06-27_5_people_still_missing_from_tragic_amtrak_crash_semi_truck_slammed_into_train_in.html#ixzz1QVtN9N5J"
On the other hand, trucking companies are in the business of putting vehicles on the road that are dramatically larger than those driven by people like you and I. When something goes wrong, it can have fatal consequences. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but in my own opinion, if a trucking company is allowing its semis to go out on public roads with mechanical defects so severe they could cause an accident, that's a cause for concern. It doesn't prove a pattern of unsafe practices, but it warrants enough concern in my mind I wouldn't say "So?" as you do.
More updated stories coming out say the driver had four violations in three months when he was driving school bus. I don't know many folks who've managed to rack up four violations in three months. I think it's fair to ask whether this guy should have been behind the wheel of a truck. That said, I'm interested to see what other information comes out in the next few days regarding both the driver and the company. One way or another, between the fact that the approaching train was apparently visible for a mile away, the fact that it was broad daylight, the fact that the gates were down and the lights flashing, and the fact that truck drivers must clear a high bar to get their CDLs, the question of why this happened is a vexing one indeed.
Andy Cummings More updated stories coming out say the driver had four violations in three months when he was driving school bus. I don't know many folks who've managed to rack up four violations in three months. I think it's fair to ask whether this guy should have been behind the wheel of a truck.
More updated stories coming out say the driver had four violations in three months when he was driving school bus. I don't know many folks who've managed to rack up four violations in three months. I think it's fair to ask whether this guy should have been behind the wheel of a truck.
Yes indeed.
Bucyrus Andy Cummings: More updated stories coming out say the driver had four violations in three months when he was driving school bus. I don't know many folks who've managed to rack up four violations in three months. I think it's fair to ask whether this guy should have been behind the wheel of a truck. Yes indeed.
Andy Cummings: More updated stories coming out say the driver had four violations in three months when he was driving school bus. I don't know many folks who've managed to rack up four violations in three months. I think it's fair to ask whether this guy should have been behind the wheel of a truck. Yes indeed.
Its also a question on why was someone who had 4 violations in 3 months able to drive a school bus.
There was a train-school bus crash some years ago - the crash took place in Tennessee, but was a Georgia bus, if I recall correctly (the NTSB has the report up). Apparently the driver got into the habit of never stopping (as required on school buses) at the crossing and one day ran into a train. Several children were killed but I believe that the driver survived and faced manslaughter charges.
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Yes! I think we all appreciate the envolvement of Both Andy as Trains Editor and Bob Johnson as a reporter.
This incident has been newsworthy since it was first reported in the national media. Unfortunately as with many of these types of incidents where facts seem short in checked content and anecdotes are reported as facts. The Truth is always left to be sorted out at some point after the fact. Or so it would seem.
Granted the remoteness of the incident from a large adjacent community has recreated former incidents with AMTRAK incidents of the past. The Sunset Ltd incident in 1993 near Saraland Al. at Bayou Canot killed 47 in that remote swampland.
Chase, Maryland killed 16 people in a head-on with a commuter train killed 16.
As well there have been others, I don't have the heart to go into. But there are lessons to be learned at each. Sleeping Cars on the head ends seem to cause many fatalities.
My real concern in hashing these incidents out is that we are not letting the professionals do their jobs and possibly giving the inevitable bunch of ambulance chasers ammunition. I grieve for those killed and will wait to read the reports when completed.
I have a feeling that the driver's driving record is going to be really in the limelight as this unfolds. The news reporting needs to find out what made the driver tick, so to speak.
A factoid such as this can be used to cover up real facts, too. I hope it isn't used for that.
henry6 A factoid such as this can be used to cover up real facts, too. I hope it isn't used for that.
Yes, I agree.
1. I'm not clear the purpose of starting a 2nd thread on this horrible incident.
2. I recall a thread some months back about two car drivers independently running into a train of empty tank cars at an inoperative crossing at night in Chicago. In that case, most posters totally blamed the drivers. Here we have a truck, in broad daylight daylight in the middle of nowhere with excellent visibility, with a crossing gate that worked, unable to stop his truck in over 300 feet. But we have a sizable number of posters who seem very reluctant to place the blame on him, much less bring up the late CD award.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
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