Trackside Lounge--second quarter, 2011

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

CShaveRR

  (Can't get over some of the neat stuff...C&O had a fleet of "100-ton" six-axle coal gondolas for a time.  Most of the fleet lasted through the War, but quickly disappeared afterwards--by 1946 they were gone.) 

  Didn't the Virginian (and/ or N&W) also have a fleet of those ? - PDN. 

[CShaveRR]

Continued good luck, Nance, in finding the information you're looking for!  Also in your new "job"!  They've got a good volunteer, and I'm proud of you! 

Yesterday afternoon, thanks to a timely e-mail, I became booked solid for a while.  We're working on the freight car book about the C&O's rolling stock that I alluded to on our April vacation.  Back in 1979 we began with a book that C&O published in 1937 (they had provided photographs and small drawings with dimensions for almost all of the freight cars on their roster); we added information about builders, dates, history, rebuildings, and dispositions to those pages, attempted to cover the series that they had left out (usually stuff on the verge of retirement), as well as a chapter on cabooses.  For our revised edition we're adding a considerable amount of acquired information to our sheets (corrections were included in an appendix in one reprinting; that will be incorporated into the main book this time), and adding pages from another edition of the same book, published after World War II (1946).  This will add some more interesting cars, such as heavy-duty flat cars, to the coverage. 

Anyway, the old appendix was removed yesterday and the body of the book fortified.  Phase 2 (adding quantities and such for 1946) will be done today, and we'll be discussing how the pages from the 1946 book will be dovetailed in with the originals. 

(Can't get over some of the neat stuff...C&O had a fleet of "100-ton" six-axle coal gondolas for a time.  Most of the fleet lasted through the War, but quickly disappeared afterwards--by 1946 they were gone.)

[AgentKid]

Nance, sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner, but I was hanging back waiting for specific questions. I guess you need to have some basic knowledge before you can get into specifics. I will recommend three books on depot life, but they are about Canadian depot life. Admittedly, there will be many similarities, but the one big difference is that close to 90% of all manned Canadian stations had the Agent's family living with him, and the number in the US is almost the opposite. Canadian stations weren't just strictly places of business, and from what I have read over the years that made a difference. So here is my list.

• "Canadian National's Western Stations" by Charles W. Bohi and Leslie S. Kozma, 2002 Fitzhenry & Whiteside.
• "Canadian Pacific's Western Depots" by Charles W. Bohi and Leslie S. Kozma, 1993 South Platte Press.
• "The Train Doesn't Stop Here Anymore" by Ron Brown, 2008 Dundurn Press.

The Bohi and Kozma books are more for aficionados of the buildings themselves, but because form follows function, both books have sections on the lives of the Agents and their families. Both on and off the job. For many years the CP book was my favourite RR book, but I always thought it would be better if it was half again as thick with more details of station life. But many might find that redundant.

Mr. Brown's book is different, but it may be of more use to you, as it deals more with stations in central Canada. The population densities of western and central Canada are quite different, and the higher density may be more similar to how things are in your part of the US. It could be said that this is a more scholarly work, and Brown has included observations from non-railroaders about their impressions of station life This has resulted in some non-railroad terms being used, and has also led to some erroneous impressions of station life, much like the print Paul North linked to. The print was inaccurate, but it was funny and no insult was taken. This book does, however, also have good information I have never seen anywhere else, including answers to questions my Dad had always wondered about over the years, but never knew.

One thing it does go on to explain, is that Agents had one employer and one direct supervisor, but they served two masters. Agents in both Canada and the US were members of the Order of Railway Telegraphers union, and this was the part of the job that dealt with train operation. Copying Train Orders, copying train lineups for MOW worker safety, ensuring signals, lanterns, flags were functional, and all of the other things necessary to safe train operation.

Then there was the commercial side, selling tickets, sending and receiving telegrams, collecting COD fees on incoming freight and express and collecting fees to send out freight and express, including full carload freight. In Canada this lead to several scenario's. You had stations where, because of their position on a route, they were very busy if not essential to the safe operation of trains, back in the days of Timetable and Train Order operation. You had cases where villages and towns provided good business to the railway. But then you also had cases where a station was needed to run trains but where the commercial business had gone elsewhere, like to trucks and cars. And finally, you had the more uncommon case where people still bought tickets for passenger trains, but where a unionized worker was not needed for train operation.

The almost total lack of electrified signaling in Canada in the 1930's saved Station Agents jobs, even as the commercial side collapsed around them. During WWII Agents had more work than they could handle. But after that; with the widespread roll out of ABS, then CTC, and finally radios, along with competition from cars and trucks, the Station Agents left and the stations were demolished.

Bruce

.

[WMNB4THRTL]

Thanks a bunch, Paul! I'm checking on getting those now.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

D&H Caboose 35799 - as seen at/ in Kenwood Yard, Port of Albany/ Glenmont area - Sat., 24 July 2010. Unknown what service it is used for:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2518/5792347158_25e244617e_b.jpg

For the 'depot life' info, get hold of the following, among others:

A Treasury of Railroad Folklore - see: 

 http://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Railroad-Folklore-Traditions-American/dp/0517168685 

The Story of American Railroads - see:

http://www.amazon.com/Story-American-Railroads-Stewart-Holbrook/dp/B0007DF2DA 

The American Heritage History of Railroads in America - see:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Heritage-History-Railroads-America/dp/0517362368

- Paul North.

[WMNB4THRTL]

Thanks! Anybody know of any caboose(s) still in active service, other than on a tourist RR, of course? I hear there are some but I'd like to know of them. Do you know if they use them for switching, or?

Also, I'm still seeking sources of info for depot 'life,' if you will and caboose(s). A special area of focus, as I mentioned, is how important the RR's were/are to America, etc. I know there must be lots of 'stuff' out there, but I'd like to get a hold of it. Is Wikipedia good, or? Thanks; any and all help much appreciated! Have a great weekend.

[Modelcar]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Conductor would have the "waybill", which is a basic and (almost) indispensable legal document as the contract for transportation of the shipper's goods to the consignee by the carrier; also, a practical one, because it has the information to which you allude - plus car number and reporting marks, weights, routing if other than carrier's choice, other special instructions, etc.  See:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waybill  - compare with:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_lading 

See also images at:

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bill_of_Lading_-_Southern_Railway_Company_front.jpg 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bill_of_Lading_-_Southern_Railway_Company_back.jpg 

See also: "Waybill" at: http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/Railroading%20Glossary.aspx?letter=W - neither "Bill of Lading" nor "Switch List" are in that Glossary, though. 

I don't have much more info on them - let's see what Bruce, Carl, zug, and others here who work with them on a daily basis can add. 

For switching, it may be "all in his head"; or in the form of a "switch list", which could be scrawled on the back of an envelope, or neatly compiled and printed out - depends on the operation. 

On a lighter note: Have you ever seen the pen-and-ink drawing of the Station Agent - J. Pluto Bolivar - in "At The Old Depot", by C.D. Poage, 1930 ?  See the following link, and esp. the comments below it:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/wb5kcm/1457506573/ 

(I have a full-size print, too.  Any resemblance to some of my former workplaces is purely coincidental !)

- Paul North.   

Paul_D_North_Jr

 

On a lighter note: Have you ever seen the pen-and-ink drawing of the Station Agent - J. Pluto Bolivar - in "At The Old Depot", by C.D. Poage, 1930 ?  See the following link, and esp. the comments below it:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/wb5kcm/1457506573/ 

(I have a full-size print, too.  Any resemblance to some of my former workplaces is purely coincidental !)

- Paul North.   

Paul.........I took a peek with the supplied link, {At The Old Depot}, and spent a bit of time looking it over.  Much to look at and ponder.  A bit O T though {me}....I looked over to the right side of that page and "thumbed" thru the pic's of that Teac Cassette sterreo tape deck.  That is really nice and goes back a ways.  Looks like a quality unit.

I noticed it, I suppose, because I happen to have a pretty good Cassette tape deck from back, 27 years ago....An AKAI  GX7.  It's almost never used anymore, but still connected.

By the way, that station agent seems a bit busy being in the depts of the Depression.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Conductor would have the "waybill", which is a basic and (almost) indispensable legal document as the contract for transportation of the shipper's goods to the consignee by the carrier; also, a practical one, because it has the information to which you allude - plus car number and reporting marks, weights, routing if other than carrier's choice, other special instructions, etc.  See:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waybill  - compare with:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_lading 

See also images at:

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bill_of_Lading_-_Southern_Railway_Company_front.jpg 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bill_of_Lading_-_Southern_Railway_Company_back.jpg 

See also: "Waybill" at: http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/Railroading%20Glossary.aspx?letter=W - neither "Bill of Lading" nor "Switch List" are in that Glossary, though. 

I don't have much more info on them - let's see what Bruce, Carl, zug, and others here who work with them on a daily basis can add. 

For switching, it may be "all in his head"; or in the form of a "switch list", which could be scrawled on the back of an envelope, or neatly compiled and printed out - depends on the operation. 

On a lighter note: Have you ever seen the pen-and-ink drawing of the Station Agent - J. Pluto Bolivar - in "At The Old Depot", by C.D. Poage, 1930 ?  See the following link, and esp. the comments below it:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/wb5kcm/1457506573/ 

(I have a full-size print, too.  Any resemblance to some of my former workplaces is purely coincidental !)

- Paul North.   

[WMNB4THRTL]

I understand a cond. had a sheet for every car he had on his train. I imagine the freight info, origin point, destination point, what else? Is this accurate? Wouldn't he also have to plan how to drop each cut of cars and then recouple train, etc? I'm most interested in all about the cabooses, and the depots, too, as I posted earlier. Thanks a bunch!!

[WMNB4THRTL]

Thanks everyone! Bruce, I had you in mind as being able to contribute richly to my inquiries! I think I should have worded it as "focused on northeast US but all depot info sought" bc I dare say, it's probably very similar, if not nearly identical, in many/most/all cases!

[AgentKid]

CShaveRR

 

 

Any dogs would have had the agents/operators for their masters--they wouldn't have been on the company payroll!

A dog to retrieve them would be kind of nice to have....though an eager kid might have worked as well!

This gave me quite a chuckle. Chasing after hoops was my little brother's thing. Once the train had passed my Dad would give the OK, and Dave would light out after the hoop.

Our dog Peter, on the other hand, never felt that "hoop fetching" was in his job description!

Bruce

 

[WMNB4THRTL]

Many thanks! I did figure the dog would belong to depot master.

I meant to type 'telegraph,' not 'teletype.' oops

[CShaveRR]

WMNB4THRTL

"By the late 1920s, newly constructed freight cars were taller than most cupolas. This prompted the invention of the bay window caboose, pioneered by the Milwaukee Road and the Baltimore & Ohio. Built with one set of windows on each side, projecting out from the side wall to form a viewing alcove, the bay window caboose allowed the conductor and brakeman to view each side of their moving train. This type of caboose was cheaper to build than the cupola, and also helped solve tunnel clearance problems faced by many eastern railroads."

Would this really solve a problem though, because wouldn't it then be that they would be too wide? Must be not, huh? It seems like it though.

Consider that the bay window is basically a shelter for somebody who would otherwise be sticking his head out of a side window.  In fact, some railroad's cabooses (NYC was the biggest one) had bay windows that were basically just a box over a window, giving the crewmen a chance to look along their train.

Most cabooses have/had carbodies that were narrower than those of the freight cars to begin with.  Perhaps bay-window cabooses were narrower yet, I haven't checked.  But consider that the bay window would be the widest part of the body...on a freight car, you have ladders and grabirons that stick out beyond the width of the body and still have to be within the clearance diagram.

Besides, your most effective inspection of a train is done as it is going around a curve, so you can actually see one side or the other better.

WMNB4THRTL

and this passage:
"Cabooses were expensive to build and maintain, unlike regular freight cars, which earned their keep. Extra switching moves were needed to add or uncouple a caboose at the end of a train, and they required caboose tracks at major yards, as well as carmen and laborers to work on them and service them"

What's a 'caboose track?' Would it be a special siding just for caboose(s)? If so, I can see how that would be a pain!

Far better, in those days, to have a track where all cabooses could be taken for servicing (fuel, water, office and operational supplies, etc.) than to cart those supplies to some other yard track where cabooses might or might not be accessible.  Better for the yard crews, too, to have them out of the way.  Before cabooses were pooled, you had to be able to get specific cars off the caboose track for the crew that was taking the train out.  If it were an away-from-home terminal, there was a time when the caboose was where the crew actually slept.

WMNB4THRTL

On the subject of cabooses, what else is/was real interesting about their function, history, etc. Of course, I do know they are used rarely today, but it what setting do they survive, and better yet, why? Why do a few places still use them? I realize why they faded out and their functions met in other ways, but if so, then why do some places still need/use them?

There may be people here who used cabooses more than I actually did, so I'll let them comment on this.  Just remember that they were office, cookhouse, and bunkhouse for crews on the road, and an observatory from which the train could be checked.  The most likely use today is as a shoving platform, to protect someone who has to protect the leading end of a long shoving movement.

If you can find anywhere a copy of The Railroad Caboose, by William F. Knapke, you'll get an eyeful.

WMNB4THRTL

PS Also, IIRC, I've heard stories of a lot of these depots having dogs, who often fetched the hoop-up sticks (sorry if that's not the technical term) used for mail/messages. Can anyone confirm or deny such info? Also, I heard that very often, even 100 years ago, women often worked as the teletype operator at these depots?

Any dogs would have had the agents/operators for their masters--they wouldn't have been on the company payroll!  Before the handing up of orders with the forked stick that you may be familiar with, they'd use hoops or looped sticks.  The crewman would have to take the entire hoop, undo the orders, then toss the hoop off at the far end of the platform (if they were charitable).  A dog to retrieve them would be kind of nice to have....though an eager kid might have worked as well!

One of my favorite agent/operators in my years of hanging around the local depot in the evenings was a gal who probably got the job while the men were serving in World War II.  No teletype, and probably no telegraph in those days...but she would have to be available copy train orders that the dispatcher might need to send, and sell tickets to what few passengers might want them (and handle the paperwork for the fairly large volumes of mail that still went through the station).  Teletype wasn't used much by most railroads--you put your earphones on and copied the orders either by hand or on a typewriter, and had to repeat them to the dispatcher for accuracy, then fill out a clearance form to accompany them when delivering them.

Perhaps the most famous female station operator would have been Kate Shelley, who held down the job at her local station for the Chicago & North Western for a few years around the turn of the last century, after her famous crossing of the Des Moines River to save the passenger train from disaster.

 

WMNB4THRTL

And, this from a Wikipedia article, "...from 1853 to 1874. The depot provided the village with daily mail, express, and passenger service by means of an omnibus" 

Would this 'omnibus' probably have been like a stagecoach-type thing, or? (The village they refer to is 3 miles away.)

To quote Michael Flanders, "Bus comes from the Latin omnibus, meaning To or for, by, with, or from everybody."  So just think bus.

 

 

[WMNB4THRTL]

My gratitude, Carl!

From this site, under RR Reference, then RR History:

"The colorful caboose"

"By the late 1920s, newly constructed freight cars were taller than most cupolas. This prompted the invention of the bay window caboose, pioneered by the Milwaukee Road and the Baltimore & Ohio. Built with one set of windows on each side, projecting out from the side wall to form a viewing alcove, the bay window caboose allowed the conductor and brakeman to view each side of their moving train. This type of caboose was cheaper to build than the cupola, and also helped solve tunnel clearance problems faced by many eastern railroads."

Would this really solve a problem though, bc wouldn't it then be that they would be too wide? Must be not, huh? It seems like it though.

and this passage:
"Cabooses were expensive to build and maintain, unlike regular freight cars, which earned their keep. Extra switching moves were needed to add or uncouple a caboose at the end of a train, and they required caboose tracks at major yards, as well as carmen and laborers to work on them and service them"

What's a 'caboose track?' Would it be a special siding just for caboose(s)? If so, I can see how that would be a pain!

On the subject of cabooses, what else is/was real interesting about their function, history, etc. Of course, I do know they are used rarely today, but it what setting do they survive, and better yet, why? Why do a few places still use them? I realize why they faded out and their functions met in other ways, but if so, then why do some places still need/use them?

Thanks in advance, as always.

PS Also, IIRC, I've heard stories of a lot of these depots having dogs, who often fetched the hoop-up sticks (sorry if that's not the technical term) used for mail/messages. Can anyone confirm or deny such info? Also, I heard that very often, even 100 years ago, women often worked as the teletype operator at these depots?

And, this from a Wikipedia article, "...from 1853 to 1874. The depot provided the village with daily mail, express, and passenger service by means of an omnibus" 

Would this 'omnibus' probably have been like a stagecoach-type thing, or? (The village they refer to is 3 miles away.)

 

[CShaveRR]

Nance, if you were a diesel locomotive manufacturer, you had four markets to build for:  passenger, freight, switching, and industrial.  If you could come up with a locomotive that could handle more than one of those assignments well, you'd have a winner.  In most cases, an industrial locomotive didn't have to be big, so it wasn't--and that would just about eliminate its effectiveness for pulling a train over the road...present museums excluded, of course. 

So Alco came up with road switchers, EMD came up with FP (freight-passenger) cab units, but finally had a hit with GP (general purpose) units that could go anywhere and do anything, especially if you put a steam generator in them for passenger service. 

Keep in mind that these models were just the advertised ways of getting the flexibility you wanted.  Other "off-the-shelf" models could be modified to make them more suitable for combinations of chores. Passenger service needed switching back in the day, too--Alco and EMD basically elongated some of their switching units to provide a place for a steam generator.  Santa Fe had lots of F7s equipped with steam generators (the FP units might have been better suited, but still...) 

My favorite adaptations of units for multiple uses were Grand Trunk Western's newest first-generation diesels:  a series of eight SW1200s that were road switchers in everything but name.  They had m.u. connections, handrails along the long hood, Flexicoil trucks, 65-m.p.h. gearing, and three-chime horns (when ordinary yard switchers had single horns that sounded like wounded cattle).

[WMNB4THRTL]

Much appreciated, Jeff!!

 

Everyone stay safe.

[jeffhergert]

Switching on the road would mostly be the domain of local freights.  Also called (depending where you're at) wayfreights, patrols, peddlers, and probably other names I'm not aware of or have forgotten.  They run from one terminal to another, or maybe from one terminal to an outlying point and return switching the small town industries that still use rail.  Can be on a main line or a branch line.

Some areas that don't have enough business to run a local freight might have a thru train (usually the lowest priority manifest type) handle the remaining carload business. 

As an example, out of Boone they run a Monday thru Friday local (the West Wayfreight) that goes west and turns back at either Denison or Carroll depending on day and work scheduled.  Not every town has active industries, but the ones that do get serviced by the wayfreight.  It also can pick up any repaired bad-order cars that were set out.  There is a fertilizer dealer at the west edge of the subdivision outside the limits the wayfreight currently runs.  It only receives inbound loads periodically and loads are setout and empties picked up by a thru manifest instead of the wayfreight.     

I think the differences you're seeing in the names: road switcher, yard switcher, and industrial switcher are a holdover from the early diesel days.  When certain types of engines where targeted (or marketed?)  for a certain use.  When I think of a road switcher I think of a hood unit like an GP-7 or an ALCO RS-1, etc.  Today the big GEs and EMDs would fall under that category.  A yard switcher would be an end cab switcher like an EMD SW or MP design or an ALCO S series engine.  An Industrial switcher would be a smaller type like a Plymouth or Davenport, etc to move a few cars around tight spaces. 

Now a days, many industry owned/leased switch engines are former yard or road switcher types.  Many engines used by railroads for yard or industry work are road switchers.  Some railroads had/have their yard switchers outfitted with trucks and gearing to allow use on the road.   Even some off the shelf yard switchers would normally get branchline assignments.  So an engine can be a lot more versatile than the type name implies. 

Jeff

 

[WMNB4THRTL]

Ready?! Here we go.

I'm seeing 'road,' 'yard,' and 'industrial' switchers. Can someone pls explain this to me? Mostly, I guess I'm confused by road type. How do you switch out on the road?! Yards do yard switches and industrial at an industry?!

 

[WMNB4THRTL]

Thanks so much, Carl!! I really appreciate that!! I'm sure ya'll will be hearing plenty about what I'm looking for and learning about.

Eh, hm, speaking of which, I should have originally mentioned: I'm also particularly interested in how the RR's developed, impacted America and its growth, their impact on America today, etc. Thx!

[CShaveRR]

Hey, does this gal sound excited, or what?

Nice work, if you can get it!

Congratulations and good luck, Nance!

[WMNB4THRTL]

Well, a very interesting chapter in my life has just been opened. A big part of it involves learning every shred I can about how the railroads worked, esp. a rural depot in northeastern US, and all about cabooses. I think the target timeframe is 1930's and 1940's. 

A big, sincere thanks in advance for any and all info, incl books, etc that might be helpful!! I appreciate it!!

[jeffhergert]

CShaveRR

Pity anybody who had to wait until after the holiday weekend to receive theirs!

I'm in that category.

Jeff

[CShaveRR]

Since I last posted, about an hour and a half ago, we've gotten well over an inch of rain here.  Metra stopped the two trains that it had out on our line to wait things out (they apparently kept running on BNSF).  The Rochelle Webcam is back up again for us; looks like it's quit raining there.

Starting on a "new" pad of old freight-car observations, this one dating from our California trip in 2007.  Just paging through it makes it look exciting.  And I've already found one series of cars, freshly acquired then but completely gone now. 

[CShaveRR]

Pity anybody who had to wait until after the holiday weekend to receive theirs!

We're in line for some nasty weather this afternoon (followed by sunny and 90 tomorrow).  From the radar it looked like Rochelle is getting hammered.  I wanted to check the webcam, but am getting an "error message", which suggests that it might have been damaged (have never had problems before).

[Deggesty]

Mine came today.

[CNW 6000]

Happy Birthday Brian!  I wish for you to have many returns.  You and Joanie doing anything special?

I was able to interpret what the 'little birdie' told me successfully.  I'll include links to the pictures below them if you want to see them larger. 

WSOR's former "HK" job, now called the L595 officially, had all three of the odd-numbered former NdeM "Mexi-wreck" units on them.  The place I ended up catching them at is a former Olsen's Co-op that also has its own little switcher.  The little GE critter can be seen on left, below:

http://flic.kr/p/9MwbEt

Photos of the Critter from last fall:
Click Here

 From photo R to L is WSOR 3811, 3809 & 3813.  They're seen here about to tie onto some flats for Oshkosh Corp.

http://flic.kr/p/9MyZDq  

Finally the hogger gives a parting blast of throttle from the 3811 as he clears HWY 91/Clairville Road.

http://flic.kr/p/9MyZRY

I also met a couple of other Flickr users who happened upon these guys heading north. 

 

I was also able to get an answer to one of my own questions from a while back.  CN has been turning "on" normally dark signals, such as the ones giving clearance to the main from a couple of spurs or very infrequently used sidings.  Desk 12 RTC grilled a signal maintainer over the air about it yesterday with the argument of "Crews are grilling us here and we have nothing to tell them - so what's up?"  The maintainer replied that "some new rule changed and the FRA said they're to be on constantly now."  Exactly what that rule was he didn't say nor what prompted the change but that's better than nothing I guess.

[WMNB4THRTL]

Thanks again, everybody. It looks like I was able to get him the info he needs to get what he wants.

[blhanel]

Thanks, I hope I do get the chance to get trackside- maybe tomorrow, Monday, or even Tuesday if the weather cooperates on one of those days.

[WMNB4THRTL]

Thanks folks, as always. I don't know why he wants/needs this or what he's going to do with it, but...

Happy Birthday, Brian. Hope it is a nice one for you!

[CShaveRR]

I personally don't have any railroad decor in my yard.  About all I'd want would be a front light like a switch lamp, with maybe lunar roundels in it.

Happy birthday today to Brian Hanel!  Hope you can take advantage of the weekend and catch some excitement...trackside, even, if you wish!