Link to new thread:
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/193809.aspx
James
Thanks; I needed that!!
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
Hey, Nance! Don't forget that we've moved to new quarters (or a new quarter, anyway!)!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Dan, I meant to say something here in the Lounge after seeing your nice post in Facebook, but life intervened (even a retiree has a to-do schedule...just ask her who sets it!).
Anyway, a cheery happy birthday to Aedan! Last time I saw him, I was able to hold him in my arms for a while. I'll bet nobody can do that now! Would love to be able to see him (and the rest of his family) again sometime!
Thanks Nance - on both accounts.
Dan
Hey, a big Happy Birthday shout-out to Aedan! Hope it's lots of fun for you!!
Great shots, as always, Dan!! Well done.
Carl's right. They still exist on paper.
It's been a little while since I posted any "trip" stuff - and this isn't just Oshkosh for a change. I am ready to get the 3Q lounge open at Midnight tonight, after celebrating Aedan's 2nd birthday today.
Wednesday I decided to start off my vacation by catching what I normally miss at work in early morning. I was waiting for M343 to come north from Shops when I heard the MP169.1 detector make a beep and then said "Defect Detected". Once the train cleared the detector it gave it's report:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvlQUsq6Ft0
They started calling to the RTC as they came through the 1899 Swing Bridge in Oshkosh. The first 50 cars were all brand new WSOX 2 bay sand hoppers.http://flic.kr/p/9YcXyy
After blocking traffic a short while an Oshkosh PD officer asked if the train could pull north and clear the downtown traffic. The conductor found the car and rode the 25 mph move north to Winnebago Siding.http://flic.kr/p/9YcXK5
I had to duck home to help my wife get out the door on her first day at her new job, so I missed Q199. While at home I packed my lunch got my son ready for a little trip but decided to catch a couple more trains before we motored on to other parts of the state. The next train was M342 who ran around M343, still sitting in Winnebago Siding. http://flic.kr/p/9YcXTC
Finally, A446 came south from behind M342. Both were initially waiting at Dixie Siding in Neenah. I caught him near downtown Oshkosh on the approach to the bridge.http://flic.kr/p/9Ya4Se
After 54 miles I arrived at the CP. Having never been to the Watertown Sub (intentionally) before I had asked for advice from some folks (thanks-you know who you are) and arrived near Tamarack at MP 143.9. I had a small wait and soon 280 came into view with CP & ICE power at the head end.http://flic.kr/p/9YcYhA
After a short wait Amtrak #8, the "baby Builder" came into view. My first Amtrak.http://flic.kr/p/9YcYuY
Shortly thereafter train 281, unit autoracks came calling. This time with a SOO leader trailed by a CITX leaded unit.http://flic.kr/p/9YcYQf
I hung around Clyman for a while hoping to catch MADPR but my time ran out and I had to head for home.
I'm not sure that any of CN's predecessors disappeared yet, officially. I know that GTW and IC still exist, as does EJ&E, and I think that the Central Vermont may exist as well, even though they no longer operate the trackage. I think that all of WC's subsidiaries (Sault Sainte Marie Bridge Company, Wisconsin Chicago Link--that's another line with no tracks--and possibly the Algoma Central) were merged into WC earlier.
I wonder whether they'll consider splitting the EJ&E among GTW, IC, and/or WC for the same reasons of economy.
After doing some good, hard work on the lawn this morning, I rewarded myself with an hour or so trackside while Pat was attending a meeting. This time, however, I was armed with a scanner and the laptop (no wi-fi, unfortunately), and a shady picnic table in Lilacia Park. It wasn't as close to the tracks as I usually stay, but it worked, and the scanner gave me plenty of warning for approaching trains, thanks to the Form B in effect through town.
CShaveRR There's a merger in the news... http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/cn-to-merge-three-u.s.-subsidiary-roads-3267.html
There's a merger in the news...
http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/cn-to-merge-three-u.s.-subsidiary-roads-3267.html
Nance, a lot (perhaps most) of grade-crossing protection system these days are set up with variable-speed circuitry, activating based on the speed of the approaching trains. This is especially nice when not all trains go through at even close to the same speed.
We have one crossing here in Lombard that is tripped by westbound scoots, which then stop at the station about a quarter-mile or less away. The gates will go up after a few seconds and traffic will clear. Almost as soon as the train starts rolling toward the crossing again, the gates go down. Keep in mind that that is just one scenario for trains at this crossing--some scoots blow through town at about 70. Freights are allowed up to 50 these days (some used to go up to 70, but the speed was reduced in Metra territory, in connection with the operational changes being introduced there). So you have scoots not stopping, some coming away from a station stop, some slowing down for a station stop (not quite as slow as the ones picking up), freights moving straight through, or picking up speed after having been stopped at their staging area, or holding back while a scoot is stopped at the platform (they still have to do that at Lombard until planned station improvements are completed in a couple of years).
And ideally, through any and all of these scenarios, there should be about 21 seconds of warning before the train enters the grade crossing (the crossing definitely is out of whack at times, though...maybe I'll have to force myself to sit by the crossing and time the warning given through a pleasant day's worth of trains. Boy, that would be a chore--especially after the battery on my laptop wears down!).
After watching some videos of trains, I now wonder: Is there some sort of compensation or adjustment for when the lights/gates activate at the crossing based on speed of the train? I ask bc it sure seems to me that if this one train had been moving faster, the warning would have been grossly insufficient. TIA.
Great point!! Easily understood and much shorter to spell!!
CNW 6000CN's RTCs use the 'naught' to reference a zero for in radio communications all the time. I do recall listening to a crew member being chided over the air for saying "oh" for the zero.
CShaveRR I'm pretty sure that the GTW train orders I used to collect said "naught" in the places where it was written out (mileposts, mostly). Don't know whether they're still in the dungeon somewhere.
I'm pretty sure that the GTW train orders I used to collect said "naught" in the places where it was written out (mileposts, mostly). Don't know whether they're still in the dungeon somewhere.
AgentKid Thanks for the information. I don't know which would be worse to hear spelled out over a staticy radio, 8080 or 5888.
8888 !
"Uhh --- was that 3 "eights" that you just spelled out . . . or 4 ???"
- Paul North.
In "my" case, radio wasn't being used at all--this would have been over the dispatchers' phone line, which was in good condition (don't ask how I know that!).
Thanks for the information. I don't know which would be worse to hear spelled out over a staticy radio, 8080 or 5888.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Here in the NorthEast US the old PRR used to designate an "Ought" Track for "0" (zero) track. Don't know whether that usage carried over into train orders and other similar communiques with zeros in them. Some old-timer Pennsylvania Dutch men would use "naught' from time to time - sometimes slurred into "naaawww-thing" !
Jeff, I think it's great that you had a knowledgeable dispatcher who at least offered an explanation for her preferences, and knew the difference. People like that in that position aren't always easy to come by.
I used to get a kick out of listening to operators repeating engine numbers--on the C&O, they had to spell out the numerals of the engine numbers. The most fun was with C&O 5888, a GP7 that was regularly assigned to our branch because of its steam generator.
Either one is acceptable. Mostly around here you will hear "zero," but once in a while you will still hear someone use "naught." Usually those that use naught have been around the railroad for quite a while, newer people use zero.
I use either, depending on mood and how many zeros and their placement in the number. I was once rebuked by a dispatcher for using naught. She said, "While naught is acceptable, it makes it harder to understand the individual numbers." (I think the number, on an engine, was something like 8080.) She had worked way back for the RI has an operator. She would be familiar with using naught, has it was required then in the rule book when repeating train orders; " 205, two-naught-five..."
Ed Brunner in his article on "The Big Train" (RI's 57, GM autoparts) in Trains some years back recalls about a discussion between him and another operator on the proper way to spell naught in train orders. One (Ed IIRC) used naught because that is the way the rule book spelled it. The other guy used nought because it appears in the dictionary and just to be different.
Jeff
Hello everyone.
I had my scanner on for the first time in a long time and while listening to a crew repeat a message I was struck by a question I have been meaning to ask for a number of years.
In the course of repeating a message the time was mentioned. I only mention this because my question applies to all situations where it occurs. The time the message was issued was 07:27. When repeating the message the conductor said, "naught seven two seven, n-a u-g-h-t s-e-v-e-n t-w-o s-e-v-e-n". In the US do you say zero z-e-r-o or do you use naught? If you use one instead of the other, is it a regional thing, or does it depend on the rulebook you use?
I realize if I have to explain it, it probably means you don't, but naught is British English for zero.
Carl, our church's park service is, perhaps, a little more sophisticated than yours--it is also a picnic with all sorts of games after the food is mostly gone.
The most difficult part is making certain that we are able to reserve the second Sunday in July; about the first Monday in March reservations may be made, and to be sure that you get the day that you want at least two persons spend most of the night before (outside, of course) at the place which accepts reservation requests. So far, I have not been asked to participate in this chore.
It is several years since Ricki has gone because of bad footing at the picnic ground; when she was able to drive, she would drive to another church, but now I take her to another church so she is able to attend worship (I also try to take her at least once each month that I do not have special responsibilities at our church).
Johnny
Johnny, our church holds outdoor services only during June and the first week in July. It used to hold them there all summer (one service out of two), but now that the church building has been air-conditioned it has been deemed as a venue to be more desirable, less allergenic, and less likely to be disrupted by planes and trains.
Carl, I see that your church has had its summer service in the park. Our church waits until the second Sunday in July, and goes out to a Salt Lake City park that is just on the east side of Parleys Summit, off I80. There is no danger of train noise there, but the cries of disappointed golfers may rend the air.
As to train noise during church, when I was in Wesson, Miss., I would wait until the IC train (just across the street from the church) had passed (three Geeps could move 180 cars fairly quickly), and then resume the service. One morning, a train began coming through after Sunday School, and it was moving very slowly, for there were only two Geeps pulling 212 (my count); the dispatcher must have desperate to oder sucha move. It was by before the time for worship, though. I have talked with a minister who served the congregation occasionally after I left, and he told me he did not give in; he must have had a good pair of lungs.
Dang, one time when I really wish I WAS wrong!! So sad.
Thanks for the compliment, Paul!
We wouldn't often get the occasion to see how two tank cars together would handle, since if they were being cut off together in our yard, they'd (obviously) be for the same classification, and the probabilities would favor their being of the same size, and loaded with the same commodity. I'm sure this wouldn't hold true in the course of handling a train, though.
In the case of our hump, it was more amusement than problem for me, or just something to deal with.
In an ethanol train, I would hope that the cars would be loaded fully enough to minimize wave action. Of course, since the cars aren't insulated, care has to be taken to allow room for expansion of the commodity as the temperature increases.
Paul, while we're handing out compliments, I was remiss in not thanking you for presenting your impressions of your Amtrak trip. I don't see any Amtrak trips in my immediate future, but checking out that line (New York to Boston) is something on my "bucket list".
My own experiences so far today have been interesting, in both the good and the bad senses. I attended our church service out in Lilacia Park, and it was interrupted by no trains of any sort on the UP main line across the street. The westbound Metra scoot came through at close to schedule, at the conclusion of the service, but the eastbound, due 15 minutes earlier, was a no-show for another five minutes after that. And it stopped and stayed in Lombard for a good five minutes or better. I knew that there were a lot of passengers waiting to board..."Taste of Chicago" is going on this weekend. What I didn't find out until later was that they all had to board through one entrance, because the train was on Track 2 (I had moved to the crossing so I could confirm this). Why wasn't it on Track 1? Waiting for the train to leave was a stack train on Track 1, waiting to follow it eastward. I don't know if he'd gotten to Track 1 ahead of the scoot and been delayed or what, but this was certainly not a good day to be restricting heavy passenger loadings to one entry, at some of the busiest stations along the west line (the new crossovers should be able to minimize this).
Before the stack train cleared "my" crossing, an eastbound manifest came into view, following the scoot on track 2. Until the block signals are in service on that line, he was probably receiving "positive blocks" from the scoot ahead, announcing when they were out of the stations ahead.
(Meanwhile, I was complimented by several people at church for keeping the service from being disrupted by trains. Not quite sure how to take that...)
Nance, most cars only have one hand brake to set. Cabooses, and possibly some passenger cars, are the exceptions you'd run into; a lot of heavy-duty flat cars have hand brakes on both ends as well.
Guess you were right about the death toll from the Amtrak wreck, too, unfortunately. This morning's reports say that there are six confirmed dead, 22 still missing.
Back to work before lunch: two new series of cars to check out, courtesy of that last manifest train! After lunch, we have to go out and clean the gutters--things are lush and green up where they shouldn't be!
CShaveRR [snipped; emphasis added - PDN] . . . But all you need is a foot or so of room near the top to generate some serious wave action (if the temperature was just right, frost or dew would form either above or below the line of the load at rest, so you'd know what you were up against. Otherwise, it was purely a guess--I never noticed the sloshing to be peculiar to certain commodities. So, I'd stop the car in the master retarder, and sometimes it seemed to stop a little too quickly. I'd notice a little kick, and let the car go, and it wouldn't start to roll right away. When it did, it would speed up and slow down, speed up and slow down, and then it would hit my intermediate retarder. Hard stop, release the retarder, and you could actually watch the car roll uphill for a short distance! I'd do what I could to nip a little off the speed of the car when it exited, but sometimes you could see the speed vary all the way down into the classification tracks. . . .
So, I'd stop the car in the master retarder, and sometimes it seemed to stop a little too quickly. I'd notice a little kick, and let the car go, and it wouldn't start to roll right away. When it did, it would speed up and slow down, speed up and slow down, and then it would hit my intermediate retarder. Hard stop, release the retarder, and you could actually watch the car roll uphill for a short distance! I'd do what I could to nip a little off the speed of the car when it exited, but sometimes you could see the speed vary all the way down into the classification tracks. . . .
Would the same thing happen with 2 tank cars coupled together ? If those cars were the same length, I could see the harmonic wave action being synchronized; but if their lengths were significantly different, the internal wave timings might cancel each other out . . . ?
EDIT: There's a little project for a student at about the master's level in physics or fluid mechanics: Do an analysis and write a little piece of software - an "app" ? - for the car retarder controls to regulate the rate of deceleration of a partially loaded tank car so as to minimize that effect. In addition to that data, the car's length - and most importantly, it seems to me, the viscosity of the fluid inside - would seem to be the most important parameters to be considered. In a way, this harmonic problem is similar to the covered grain hoppers that used to rock themselves off the track whenever they encountered a series of low joints/ poor cross-level in jointed rail track at certain 'critical' speeds in the 15 - 20 MPH range, etc.
Or what about a unit train of ethanol tank cars ? Most train handling starts and stops would be smooth enough or separated by enough time and attenuated by the slack action that only a few cars would be involved at a time, and some would cancel out each other. But a fast stop would have the slack running in and all the cars stopping at about the same time, so the collective "impulse" might be considerable. A dynamometer car record of drawbar pull/ draft and push/ buff would show that effect - if any - pretty well.
Thanks for sharing all that, Carl. It ought to be in "Railroad Reading" in Trains sometime.
WMNB4THRTL Gee, thanks guys; very interesting!! I have more questions: 1.) When a RR decides to abandon their tracks, do they usually tear them up or leave them for a while to see if they come back into use, etc? I think there could be issues of upkeep (theft prevention), vandalism, liability, among possibly others? However, if they or another RR wanted to use them, it would be very costly to lay it all out again. 2.) Also, is it standard to set the brakes on both ends of a car? I thought it was one end or the other but recently encountered being told to do both. Would this be due to length of train, on an incline, etc or not bc IIRC, the rulebook says to do _____ but I don't remember it giving qualifications on it. I think it's 10% of cars. 3.) In the case of a hot journalbox, what is the SOP? I mean, I imagine, stop the train, check it, but does the car have to be set out? Can it be cooled a bit, serviced and then continue on its way? If so, what does 'servicing' it involve? Does it vary per the situation or...? Appreciate any help with these. PS Carl, I know of at least one current rulebook that states that torpedoes will be carried in the loco.
Gee, thanks guys; very interesting!!
I have more questions:
1.) When a RR decides to abandon their tracks, do they usually tear them up or leave them for a while to see if they come back into use, etc? I think there could be issues of upkeep (theft prevention), vandalism, liability, among possibly others? However, if they or another RR wanted to use them, it would be very costly to lay it all out again.
2.) Also, is it standard to set the brakes on both ends of a car? I thought it was one end or the other but recently encountered being told to do both. Would this be due to length of train, on an incline, etc or not bc IIRC, the rulebook says to do _____ but I don't remember it giving qualifications on it. I think it's 10% of cars.
3.) In the case of a hot journalbox, what is the SOP? I mean, I imagine, stop the train, check it, but does the car have to be set out? Can it be cooled a bit, serviced and then continue on its way? If so, what does 'servicing' it involve? Does it vary per the situation or...?
Appreciate any help with these.
PS Carl, I know of at least one current rulebook that states that torpedoes will be carried in the loco.
Jeff: The Bureau of Explosives and the related folks in St. Louis made the storage of torpedoes impossible and the handling of fusees almost as bad.Were we were on the railroad, we were fortunate to have access to surplus millitary 50 Cal ammo boxes which saved us for a while. My problem with torpedoes was was that, invariably, somebody wouldn't pick all of them back up.
Jay: #5 and #6 are gonna need pontoons and outriggers out here, first for western Nebraska (Platte River) and second for Glenwood Canyon. The Eagle, Colorado and Roaring Fork Rivers I saw today were boiling/foaming/turbid/ mean and angry. Water levels in Glenwood Canyon, especially the east end near the Garfield/Eagle County Line are level with the top of embankment in places. Colorado and the joint line are already seeing detour trains from BNSF. UP has a tie gang working just above Dotsero and a steel gang transposing rail in the canyon - when all heck breaks loose, they can be ready to react.
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