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Trackside Lounge: 1Q 2011

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 22, 2011 12:51 PM

Nance - you kind of answered your own question (#2).  Labor is the answer.  Dumping ballast, then jacking the track structure so it's on top of the ballast (more or less) isn't as technically difficult as removing and replacing the ballast with the track in place.

Mechanical track cleaning machines have taken care of that.  They are able to remove the ballast, clean it, and replace it in one operation.

Ballast being fouled by "fines" has been a real problem for the Powder River routes, coal dust being the culprit.

As for #1, greasers are usually intended only for the flanges, to decrease the wear thereof on sharper curves. 

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Saturday, January 22, 2011 2:22 PM

1.  Track grease/ rail lubricators:  Yep.  Lately the applicator has been mounted on the locomotive wheels instead of being at a fixed location on the track.  There's some evidence that it also reduces rail and wheel wear and friction on tangent track as well.  You don't want to go anywhere near one of them while wearing your best dress white pants, I assure you.  They are often easily identified by the broad dark streaks or swaths of grease on the rails and ties that start with the 'distribution bars or ports' and go in the prevailing direction of traffic.*  They are usually placed at the beginning of curves on heavily-traveled mainlines, where the most benefits can be obtained by saving on rail replacement needs.  Nobody stands in line to service or refill them, either (except maybe "Pigpen" from the "Peanuts" comic strip !). 

*EDIT:  Go to these Lat./ Long. coords. (per the "ACME Mapper 2.0" application), which is about 0.2 mile south of MG tower on the western side of the NS Pittsburgh Line just a mile or two above/ south of Horse Shoe Curve: N 40.47956 W 78.47731  Next, go there using Bing Maps - it has much finer resolution and clarity there - and zoom all the way in and rotate the view so that you are looking southwardly - try: http://www.bing.com/maps/#JmNwPTQwLjQ3NjkzODgyNzE1MjM2fi03OC40NjgzODQxNDY2OTAxMiZsdmw9MTQmZGlyPTAmc3R5PXI

Look for the signal bridge, and then try to guess which track(s) have the rail greaser.  Hint:  Look for the little box off to the western side of the track, maybe 50 to 100 ft. south of the signal bridge - that's the grease reservoir. 

2.  Ballast cleaning:  I'm a bit of a contrarian on that.  It works great if the source of the dirt/ contamination is leaks from cars or wind-blown lading or dirt from the surrounding area.  Also, in the space between multiple tracks where drainage needs to be good and the loads are not a big concern or factor, as is explained a little further on.  But if the ballast has gotten dirty from below - such as weak soils or a muddy spot - the ballast cleaning is only a short-term "temporary fix", until the next round of fouling and pumping, etc. can occur.  The problem is that a clean ballast stone has a lot of voids in it, which invites dirt to migrate upwards.  Also, the clean ballast stones have a lot of sharp points, which tend to punch and poke down into the weaker subgrades, which right there causes the track to settle and start moving or "pumping" a bit and start the cycle of dirt and water motion wicking upwards.  Also, there can be a well-compacted and harder layer of mixed old ballast and dirt, etc. somewhere down below the ties which seals the track from the soft ground underneath, and often the BUC = Ballast Undercutter-Cleaner operation breaks that up and disturbs it and ruins it, which destabilizes the track for a while until that layer can be re-established under traffic.  In those situations, I prefer to either remove the track entirely and install a sub-ballast layer to seal and strengthen the subgrade - if the necessary 'track time' can be obtained, or undercut the track with a 'sled' and 'skeletonize' the track - or maybe even using a BUC - but install a high-grade geotextile or 'filter fabric' to help separate the dirt from the clean ballast stone, provide better drainage, etc.  But that's just me and my experience . . .  

- Paul North.  

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Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 22, 2011 4:31 PM

Proviso has (or had, for a time) machines that would squirt "friction modifiers" at the flanges, as the cars got beyond the last retarder.  I didn't work the lower towers from the time these were installed, but some operators said they could tell right away when more of the "juice" was needed because of the way the cars rolled (or didn't roll).


Paul, I've heard of geotextiles being used underneath the ballast to reduce or eliminate fouling from below.  But I haven't heard about this recently.  I know that once when the diamond and crossover switches were replaced in front of my tower, geotextiles were used, but it didn't seem to help (I suspect that this was more due to the fouling being done from above by anything from tallow to bentinite).  I don't know if they used them the last time the diamond was replaced.  Also, I believe the BNSF has used a layer of asphalt as a base for new track.  How has that worked?

 

I know that the ballast undercutter-cleaners we've had have done a good job, but you often had to clear away the dirt because it had so much undesirable stuff in it.

Carl

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:05 PM

Great guys, as usual! I've been studying locos today.Sigh Very interesting and important but daunting at the same time!

1. Can anybody lead me to photo examples of the different cab types listed? They tell of: box-cab; steeple-cab; carbody; turret-cab (Larry, are these what yours are?); hood (style); cowl (style); and safety or comfort cab?

2. Above leads me to, how on earth do you ever get so you know, 'Oh, that's a ...; that ones a ...? I guess here I'm thinking of companies, models, etc. Is that just years of practice, maybe? But how do you originally learn all of them?! It seems endless!! There are so many models, years, companies, styles, etc. ConfusedHuh?Confused

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:27 PM

Hmmmm.

Boxcab - Just a big box.

Steeplecab - A center-cab, most often electric.  So called because the cab sticks up.

Carbody - F and E units.  The A units are oftimes referred to as cab units.  (B units have no controls - they are MU'd from a locomotive with controls).  We do operate several F units.

Turret cab - Google UP's M10000.

Hood units are your standard road switchers. (GP's, SD's, C44's, etc)

Cowl units are hoods with a covering the goes out to where the handrails are on a hood unit.  Amtrak's SDP40F's were cowls.

A safety, comfort, or wide-cab  is a full width cab on an otherwise standard hood unit.  The standard cab on a hood unit is sometimes referred to as a "spartan" cab.

Telling the difference ranges from easy to impossible.  There are enough "standard" differences between EMD and GE these days that one can at least pick out which company manufactured the locomotive.

Telling the difference between models usually comes down to "spotting features" like the number of radiator fans.  Some are easier than others.  The EMD GP30 resembles no other locomotive, f'rinstance.

Back in the day, there were usually enough differences that even a novice fan could pick out the differences.  Nowadays it almost comes down to reading the model number stencilled on the side of the cab, especially when it comes to AC/DC.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:36 PM

As to turret cabs, I know of two more--the original City of Portland, which looked like a much longer M-10000, and the engine Ingalls Shipbuilding built for the GM&O.

Nance, I am sure you know that it is safe to run over frogs--but you should never run over a rabbit that is sitting on a rail.

Johnny

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:39 PM

Thanks Larry! And Johnny, are ya telling me that a frog won't derail me but a rabbit might/will?! Smile, Wink & Grin

PS Are those the live, squishy frogs or the metal ones?

PSS Larry, not only are those EMD GP30'S unique, they got a face only a mother could love...GEEZSH!!! Devil

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:00 PM

OK, I'm confused already! Doesn't an EMD GP30 look pretty similar to a GE B30-7? They do to me! What am I missing here, something major, must be??!! Oh, I think I'm gonna be stuck carrying around an encyclopedia full of all the diesel loco models!! OH NO!!!! Then again, once I learn the ones I'm around, I might be just fine!! Here's hoping!!

(Edit) I'm trying to figure out this paragraph. (It's from ABC's of Railroading: About B-B and C-C:) Modern locomotives will automatically reduce power to their motors if speed drops too low (as on a grade); this prevents damage, but also reduces the unit's power when it's most needed. A 3000 h.p. B-B may have a minimum continuous speed of 13 mph, but the two additional motors under a 3000 h.p. C-C allow it to work under maximum power at 9 mph. That 4 mph difference is crucial, because tractive effort - the force applied to turn the locomotive's wheels and ultimately move the train - climbs steeply in the lower speed ranges.

Is this saying that C-C's are better bc they provide more tractive effort at lower speeds than B-B's?

  Huh, I think sometimes I get reading it too many times, in an effort to understand, but it just gets more confusing?! Know what I mean?

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:35 PM

tree68
[snip]

Nowadays it almost comes down to reading the model number stencilled on the side of the cab, especially when it comes to AC/DC.

The C44-9W (Dash 9) and AC4400CW (DC vs AC) were easy to spot the difference if you could see the conductor's side: the electrical cabinet on the AC is much larger because of the inverters, IIRC.  On the GEVOs and SD70M-2/ACe (at least what I've seen) you have two options: either look at the conductor's side again.  AC should have two long vents on the electrical cabinet behind the conductor's side of the cab.  The other difference I've seen is the vents at the rear of the long hood (near the 'back porch').  On DC units they've been horizontal, large louvers and AC has been vertical louvers.  Your mileage may vary.

Dan

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:17 AM

Link to a photo (not mine) of the Ingalls Shipbuilding Model 4S # 1900 (1946) - there are a couple more at this site, but they're 'broadside' B&W, whereas this one is a 'wedge' in color: 

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_gmo1900.jpg 

Link to a photo (again,  not mine) of a Niagara Junction (Niagara Falls, NY) steeplecab electric: 

http://www.davesrailpix.com/odds/ny/htm/njct10.htm 

- Paul North.

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Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:00 AM

Oh, Nance! Sigh

You're going to have to get some of the Diesel Spotters' Guides that are out there.  Kalmbach published the first one in 1966 or so, and it was revised and updated several times.  I'd suggest trying to acquire an older one at a railroadiana show or somewhere, so you could do things like distinguish an Alco S2 from an S4 and an S6, and get one of the latest ones, perhaps from a hobby shop, so you can tell the ACs from the DCs, and--especially--an EMD from a GE.

It's sort of like cars--up until the 1950s and early 60s, it was easy to distinguish one car make from another, and, quite often, models among the makes.  With locomotives, makes (builders) have always been fairly easy, but models have gotten more difficult.  They don't change every year, like cars supposedly do, but change whenever there's an improvement to be made--production method, higher horsepower, and so forth.  Believe me, I can't tell the difference between some of the models (Dan just gave me a good clue, which I'll have to look for) in recent production, but--just as I could tell you who built that car in the 50s, and probably which year--I could do all right on those first- and second-generation diesels.  This is one branch of the hobby that a lot of people really follow...I just try to get by, with a little help...

Carl

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:33 AM

EMD GP30

GE B30-7

Not hard to tell apart...

The answer to your question about B-B vs C-C is yes - Special Duty (and their counterparts from other manufacturers) locomotives are better suited to lower speeds.  The issue is the DC traction motors, which don't do really low speeds well.  That problem has been taken care of with the introduction of AC traction motors, which can move trains at speeds under 1 MPH at full throttle. 

LarryWhistling
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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:43 AM

   Aahh, thanks guys. Larry, the 2 pics I had seen were at a very different angle. Now I see what you mean! Well, no matter what, I know this is going to be a long process. I guess it would be like someone coming here and trying to learn all our automobile cars, incl makes, models, years, etc-- quite a task, indeed!!

   Carl, that's a great idea. I really didn't even know they made such books. I'll keep my eyes peeled for possibilities!! I know of one possible local source. too.

    Well, the good news in all of this is, I'm nearing the end of the 'ABC's articles, so I can soon continue my journey with the Glossary, and beyond, of course! Take care.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:50 AM

Nance - I was going to direct you to a really old thread entitled (by the original poster - no reflection on your questions) "Nora's Stupid Question Thread."

Unfortunately, it's buried in the forum archives and a search came back with "you don't have permission."

The thread was full of questions like yours, as well as answers, like we're seeing here.

We haven't heard from Nora lately, but she did go on to work for a railroad, and may still be.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:17 PM

Hi,

   Does anyone know what the tolerance is of a std-gauge track? Or, is it like 'what might derail my train,' and we don't know of this exact answer? (My bet is: we do know, but, then again...)

PS Would a curve make a difference in this?

Tags: Track

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:08 PM
Ilovemyjob, Ilovemyyjob, Ilovemyjob, Ilovemyjob, Ilovemyjob... nope. Isn't working.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:19 PM

Yes, but the real question is: Are you supposed to be??!! Smile, Wink & Grin

OH my!!! The 'silliness' caught up with me!! I think I ought to try sleeping a few more hrs a night, instead of trying to stay up to get things done!

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

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Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 23, 2011 5:20 PM

On the subject of Nora:  she's alive, doing all right, still working (for now) with the NS at Conway Yard (Pittsburgh area).  Being a clerk isn't keeping her interested in the job, so she's now attending college and following another of her many hobbies.


On the subject of maximum track gauge:  the FRA has standards for different classes of track.  I don't know what the maximum allowable distance between rails is for Class I track (and that stuff looks bad, even to the untrained observer).  On decent track, the gauge can widen to 4'10" on curves without too much of a problem.  I hope somebody gives us the precise numbers--perhaps it's expressed in terms of a tolerance between the narrowest and widest acceptable gauge.

Carl

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:28 PM

WMNB4THRTL

Thanks Larry! And Johnny, are ya telling me that a frog won't derail me but a rabbit might/will?! Smile, Wink & Grin

PS Are those the live, squishy frogs or the metal ones?

Nance, these are, of course, the metal frogs which are an integral part of switches and rail crossings. The rabbit is also metal, and its purpose is to derail a car so that it will not run onto a track where it is not supposed to be. I don't know how commonly the term "rabbit" is used now.

I have seen one incident in which the rabbit did not derail a car, but let it keep going. The AT&N was moving a car to the interchange (with the GM&O) track in Reform, Alabama. Everyone concerned believed that there was a good linkage between the brake wheel and the brake--but the linkage was defective, and, as the brakeman wound the wheel up, there was no slowing of the car until at least one truck had run over the derail. As it was, the GM&O section foreman, who lived right by the GM&O track, was home, and he unlocked the derail so that the car could be safely pulled back to where it was supposed to be left. This was more than forty years ago, but I still see, in my mind, the young brakeman running for the foreman's house. The interchange is now long gone, along with most of what had been the AT&N (only a few miles, running north of Mobile, remain).

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:51 PM

Oh, thanks, Johnny! I know what frogs are, of course, having gone over a few of them so far. However, I don't recall ever hearing of a rabbit, the kind you describe, thus my joke! I'm very grateful to be learning of all this though, as it's all so important! Thanks again!!

Darn just found a question, under ABC's of Railroading: About B-B and C-C: Six Axle "The direct current motors used under most diesels are relatively fragile. They must be kept turning at a certain minimum continuous speed when under power or they'll overheat"

So my (?) is, is that 'min. cont. speed' known as a certain number, or does the engineer have to go by the sound/feel of things, or...? I can well imagine it is mighty important to avoid possible damage, or worse.

PS That track gauge question sounds like one for Paul North, among others, too, no doubt.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:33 PM

Nance, I'm pretty sure that every D.C. locomotive model has a minimum continuous speed in its specifications (right up there with horsepower and tractive effort).  The units can go more slowly than that, of course, but if you're working them, you have to keep a pretty good eye on the speedometer and the ammeter, and keep the ammeter out of the red zone beyond a specified length of time.  I can't be specific here, because I'm not an engineer.

Carl

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Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:37 PM

Just completed another scratch-pad full of old sightings (putting them into the computer); it's the second one I've gone through this year.  Starting a new one tonight.  These old pads contain about a month's worth of sightings--sometimes more, sometimes less.  I previewed the next month I'm working on (January 2008--these aren't in any order), and it looks like it will be interesting, but should go fairly fast.

Carl

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:02 PM

CShaveRR
The units can go more slowly than that, of course, but if you're working them, you have to keep a pretty good eye on the speedometer and the ammeter, and keep the ammeter out of the red zone beyond a specified length of time.  I can't be specific here, because I'm not an engineer.

Well, I'm a student...

Carl summed it up pretty well.  I couldn't find a good picture of a locomotive ammeter.  Most do have markings on the dial indicating how long the locomotive can be run at a given amperage.  The higher the amperage, the less the time.  I'm not sure how that's handled on the locos with screens instead of dials.

That said, a DC locomotive will creep along at a few miles per hour forever if it isn't under extreme load.   It's all in the amps. 

The other issue if you're pulling that hard is wheel slip.  Modern locomotives have microprocessors that detect and counteract wheel slip.  The stuff I'll be working with might set off a buzzer, but the engineer has to make the adjustments.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by CShaveRR on Monday, January 24, 2011 7:43 AM

CShaveRR

Just completed another scratch-pad full of old sightings (putting them into the computer); it's the second one I've gone through this year.  Starting a new one tonight.  These old pads contain about a month's worth of sightings--sometimes more, sometimes less.  I previewed the next month I'm working on (January 2008--these aren't in any order), and it looks like it will be interesting, but should go fairly fast.

Well, that didn't go so well...came up with one line on those sightings that's going to require a table to present about 250 old renumberings out of 1400-some cars (all I can find), requiring six new pages and revision of six or more old ones as well.  So much for today Sigh!

(Lovin' it--can't you tell?)

Carl

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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, January 24, 2011 8:20 AM

Nance: Maximum track gauge allowed for Class 1 (10 mph) is 4'-10" (58")....for excepted track it's 4'-101/4" (58 1/4")...............at 60" the wheels fall in without lateral pressure applied, period.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Monday, January 24, 2011 8:44 AM

Ggggood mmmmorning, bbbrrr!!

Carl, I guess we know what your project-of-the-day is! Well, look at it this way, it's too cold to do much else anyway. Speaking of which, I've got to get busy here myself. I'm pretty much able to move on to the Glossary for now.

MC,  thank you. I knew you, or Paul, or one of you would have that answer. I also know that's an important answer to have.


Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Monday, January 24, 2011 10:46 AM

Sounds like fun Carl!  It's always nice to look at a project like that when it's done, however.  I'm attempting something of similar bent on my Flickr pages: getting each photo tagged, labelled, and put on the map in the appropriate spot.

Nance,
Maybe it's just me...but I'm having a devil of a time reading your posts...maybe because of the smaller font.  Is there any chance you could up the size a tad?  If not it's no biggie.

Back to something akin to productivity for the day...

Dan

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Monday, January 24, 2011 12:01 PM

Oh, sorry about that. Another mention was made of that, too. I hope this is better. Maybe I'll have to change which font I'm using, too? (I discovered I had increased my screen font and left it that way, so it appeared larger to  me.)Oops

OK, so on to the Glossary, at least for now.

1. AEI-- are these similar to the toll booth readers people can use to avoid stopping to pay each time?

2. anti-climber-- I get the concept; does anyone know of a photo of one?

3. ATC/ATS-- again, I understand the concept; I'm wondering if it is seen as advantageous or a pain? Or, maybe both, I can imagine.

4. APCU-- Am I right in thinking then that this unit can no longer be used as a regular loco?

Thanks, folks. I appreciate all your help.


Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 24, 2011 12:41 PM

Nance, as to ATC/ATS, back in 1948 (or 1947), the ICC declared that if you do not have ATC, ABS, or cab signals, your maximum allowed speeds are 79 mph for passenger trains and 59 mph for freight trains (and then only if you have block signals--59/49 if no block signals); if you have any of the systems, run as fast as the track will let you. If you want to get over the road faster, either one is advantageous--if it is cost effective.

Back about forty years ago, there was an interesting wreck on the Southern between Birmingham and Chattanooga: the ATS coil on a freight engine came loose from its mount, and as it was flailing around (the cable still held), it cleaned a switch stand which then no longer held the points of the switch in place; the switch was split, and you know what the effect was. After that event, the Southern petitioned to be allowed to discontinue its ATS system (after all, the maximum speed allowed in the timetables on any Southern track was no greater than 80/60 mph, and what difference was 1 mph going to make? Of course, it seems that proper maintenance could have prevented the derailment.

A few years later, I was riding to Chicago from Harvard on the C&NW, and we had to proceed slowly because of problems with the ATC. Again, lack of proper maintenance?  0/0.

Apparently, if you can afford to maintain the system, and it is cost-effective, there is no pain (except, perhaps, to engineers who do not like the system).

Johnny

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 538 posts
Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Monday, January 24, 2011 2:52 PM

Thanks, Johnny!

I know I still have the rest of my 'A' questions 'in play,' if you will, but I decided to go ahead and post my 'B' ones, as well. (Gee, hope this isn't like those 'B' movies! Smile, Wink & Grin)

1. bad order-- anyone know if filling this out and/or placing it is usually restricted to certain people or a certain craft or can any employee who knows it's broke(n) put one up?

2. blue flag-- similar (?) to #1. If any engineer is going to go under a loco, say to check on a problem, would s/he place a blue flag or would it only be done by certain people? (My guess is-- they are always placed bc they are to protect all workers...)

3. booster engine-anyone know of model(s) that have this? any photos? Is it visible or 'hidden' under something?

4. This isn't truly a 'B' question (unless you count, "It broke, we need to fix it) Where do parts come from to repair vintage equipment? Are they sometimes repaired on-site, I would imagine? I mean, obviously, I would think that in most cases, you don't drive down to the local automotive parts store and ask for parts for your 1957 Alco S7, right? Or your 1920-something passenger coach? OTOH, I guess there might be certain pieces that could be available at say, a hardware store? (I'm thinking of a valve that broke one time.)

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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