Hi there; me again. As I'm doing more 'homework,' studying RR info, I've come up against another topic of confusion. Given the nature of this, it is critically important I understand it. ( I thought I knew about this, but maybe not as well as I thought?.)
AIR BRAKES:
1. To set brakes, the engineer reduces pressure in the line, causing a valve on each car to draw air from a reservoir, increasing pressure in the car's brake cylinder.(This was copied from within the Trains site, talking about air brakes)
So, I thought that it was the release of air that caused this whole system to work?! But above it says, "increasing pressure in the car's brake cylinder." Wouldn't that be decreasing pressure...? What am I missing? and...
2. So, it was explained to me that some problems (accidents?) have been caused over the years bc an engineer overused the air brakes and ended up with no air! They told me that if you keep making applications, several times in a row, you can end up losing your air and obviously, being in critical trouble. How can this be since loss of air makes the brakes work?
Thanks so much. Nance
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
Hi, Nance -
1. The triple valve senses the decrease in the trainline's pressure, and then routes the previously stored supply of higher-air pressure from the reservoir to the brake cylinder, where it is increased from its normal 0 PSI pressure.
2. The loss of air that leads to run-aways is from the many of the following cars' principal and emergency reservoirs, not from the trainline.
I sense that a diagram and better explanation would be helpful for you. So, see former BN and BNSF engineer (now retired) Al Krug's detailed explanations of Freight Train Air Brakes of North America at: http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/brakes.htm
and these pages at a related site - although mostly in British 'dialect', they've got North American technology about right - at: http://www.railway-technical.com/air-brakes.shtml
http://www.railway-technical.com/air-block.gif
http://www.railway-technical.com/airbra-app.gif
Also, the interactive graphic demonstrations and scenarios at the Trackmobile website at:
http://www.trackmobile.com/brakes.htm
Quiz on all that tomorrow morning !
Carl, yesterday in a vacant industrial plant near here I saw a former 100,000 lb. CAPY RDG flat - No. 9417, I recall - with a BLT date of 1941 and a last journal repack in 1974. If all goes well with a track restoration project proposal that I've got to get back to now, I may be back there again in a month or two - I'll try to get some photos of it and its brethren.
- Paul North.
Thanks, Paul. I might be up all night studying then!
Re: 1, so the brake cylinder is not initially charged then? I thought the whole system was charged?! (oh dear.)
As for 2. I'm still studying. I still have a few hours left before a.m., thankfully!! I'll get back to you on that.
OK, as of now, that UP upper Mid-west route is only behind by 50 votes!! You can vote once per day. I think voting ends 1/17.
Thanks, Jeff. I knew that with a train order the engine number was positive identification, so it is with a track warrant; I had not seen as much information on TW operation as I had on TO operation. If you do not know the number of your lead unit, you are in a bad way, and should not have come to work?
Zug, I'm glad to hear you have a regular job, and do not have to wait for the telephone to ring. I have, on occasion, worked a midnight shift (both midnight to seven and seven to seven), and I was glad for the occasions to be very short (breaking a new employee in, or standing in for someone who was sick). I wonder, was being on call much different from chain gang operation? May you soon have the opportunity to work a better job.
Yes, Nancy, railroading is fascinating to many people, including my wife, who simply enjoys traveling by train. The more we learn, the more we want to learn, and I am thankful for the interaction with the various people who contribute to the threads on the Trains forums. By the way, have you found the Classic Trains forum http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/default.aspx?groupid=6 ?
Johnny
No, but thanks for the good info Johnny! I'll check that out for sure. I sort of knew about it but haven't been over/in there yet. Take care.
WMNB4THRTL Re: 1, so the brake cylinder is not initially charged then? I thought the whole system was charged?! (oh dear.) [snip]
No. The brake cylinders (only) of a free-rolling train without the air brakes applied should be at 0 lbs. pressure - otherwise, the brakes would be dragging ! (bad scene) In contrast, the brake line and air reservoir on each car should be at the fully charged air pressure. Further, in yard and switching operations, the crews are usually required to drain or 'bleed' the entire system on each car of air pressure before moving them. LIkewise, in some instances the cars' air brake systems have to be 'bled' even if they're being 'spotted' or 'set-out' with the air connected - they're not allowed to be 'parked on air' as the handbrakes have to be applied anyway, so that step ensures that the handbrake is what's holding the car, not the air brake (though this can vary by local RR rule, situation, and custom.)
Wow - lot's going on here.
On engine numbers - When dictating an EC-1 (authority to occupy track), the DS will use the lead engine number.
When communicating with the train, it's usually the symbol, although the lead engine number will occasionally be included (ie, Q123-14 CSXT 1234), although I sometimes get the impression that that's rather like your mother using your first and your middle name...
Since our tourist line doesn't have train symbols, we just use the lead engine.
Brakes will be one of the bigger challenges for me when I start running as a student engineer this summer. To top it off, all of our locomotives are vintage, of varying ages. Thus I will end up with several different brake stands to work with, depending on which locomotive heads up that particular train.
One almost has to take the actions of the triple valve (and its successors) as a form of "magic" until one gets a grasp of the operation. How train brakes work is almost counter-intuitive.
On another note - Attended a local toy train show today at Utica Union Station as a representative of the railroad.
Amongst the folks who stopped into the office to chat was a gentleman who had been heavily involved in signal systems in the Syracuse/Utica area in the days of the Central. Learned a few things (including why there was one signal on an otherwise dark line), but really regret that we didn't have a few hours and a tape recorder to do an oral history with the guy - he has a wealth of knowledge about NYC operations "back in the day."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 On another note - Attended a local toy train show today at Utica Union Station as a representative of the railroad. Amongst the folks who stopped into the office to chat was a gentleman who had been heavily involved in signal systems in the Syracuse/Utica area in the days of the Central. Learned a few things (including why there was one signal on an otherwise dark line), but really regret that we didn't have a few hours and a tape recorder to do an oral history with the guy - he has a wealth of knowledge about NYC operations "back in the day."
Thanks, Paul & Larry. I'll keep studying!
Johnny - This gentleman may be a member of the local NRHS chapter - they'd be the perfect folks to do such a collection. During the conversation he also mentioned some other "old heads" still alive in the area, from various crafts. They should be tapped as well.
I live two hours from there (although I am a member of that chapter, mainly because they were early supporters of the resurrection of what is now the Adirondack Scenic), but there are plenty of folks who live in the area who are capable.
Carl, circle the wagons! I can't get the UP page to load properly; I wonder if it's overloaded?! From what I could see, 'we' are behind by 200 votes now!!! HELP!!! We're SO close! Do you think there's a chance they would run both of these top two routes, esp. since it is SO close?! Fingers crossed. N.
Back to studying for me! I heard there's gonna be a test!! ;>)
Carl & Jim,
That ore train snuck south about an hour ago! I was not prepared and only now had a chance to pass the heads up. U780 is or will be in your neck of the woods shortly.
Dan
Cool! I'll fire up my scanner and see if I can catch it this time. Although with the way the snow is coming down, I might just wimp out and stay home. Does this train stop at FDL for any reason, or does it go straight thru?
tree68 Brakes will be one of the bigger challenges for me when I start running as a student engineer this summer. To top it off, all of our locomotives are vintage, of varying ages. Thus I will end up with several different brake stands to work with, depending on which locomotive heads up that particular train.
OK, zardoz, thanks for the post. However, it brings up two questions for me.
!. What does 'MU' mean?
2. Will someone please explain "just trainline the trailing locomotives?"
Thanks. Nance
zardoz Cool! I'll fire up my scanner and see if I can catch it this time. Although with the way the snow is coming down, I might just wimp out and stay home. Does this train stop at FDL for any reason, or does it go straight thru?
On a personal note I did get my 1000th roster picture. Sunday morning the leader of M346 that I caught at Van Dyne, WI got that distinction: CN 8920, an EMD SD70M-2. I have more pictures to process...but that was my goal for the weekend. If anyone so desires to peruse my pictures they can be found on Flickr by searching for Wide Cab.
WMNB4THRTL OK, zardoz, thanks for the post. However, it brings up two questions for me. !. What does 'MU' mean? 2. Will someone please explain "just trainline the trailing locomotives?" Thanks. Nance
1) MU means to have the units computers working together in Multiple Unit configuration. The loco in the lead will control the throttle, braking, etc for the locomotives coupled to it and connected via all the cables/hoses between them. That's different than DPU or Distributed Power Unit operations where 'slave' units are controlled via radio signal from the lead locomotive.
2) When a loco is in 'trainline' it's prime mover is idled and will not be used for pulling or stopping the train. It's like a 200 ton car...kinda.
Oh, congrats Dan! That is quite an accomplishment, to be sure! Very nice. As soon as I have a chance, I'm gonna take a trip back over to Flickr and look at them some more. Thanks for sharing! And thanks, too! It looks like we were typing at the same time!
Stay warm everybody. It was a FRIGID -5F this am.
Yes, congratulations, Dan! That's quite a milestone.
I heard about that New York weather already from Larry ("Tree 68"), Nance. While you folks are shivering there, we're going to get up close to freezing today. The trouble with that is that something is supposed to fall from the sky today--this morning it was a bit of snow, but this afternoon and evening may bring the nasty stuff. I don't think we'll make it all the way up to rain. Thankfully, we don't have to go anywhere before tomorrow.
I accomplished a little yesterday, too, but not in the best sort of way. I saw a MERX covered hopper car. My correspondents tell me that MERX is not listed in the January 2011 Official Railway Equipment Register, so I don't know whose it is now, in spite of the fact that I can trace it back to two prior owners (not counting the many incarnations of the original owner, Gulf Oil Company). There may be other MERX cars, but only five exist in this series--so I feel kind of lucky. (Anyone who says that MERX is operated by MERCO or the Merchants Despatch Transportation Corporation, thanks very much, but that's old info, and the reporting mark has been reassigned.)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Yup, and you're sending it on to us for tomorrow!
Gee, thanks!! What a guy!!
Nice catch yourself Carl. I've been paying more attention to details like built dates and other minutiae as of late. It's an interesting distraction, I can see why you like that!
Still waiting on L576 and B79041-14 to get in my neck of the woods. I may just go N/NW to see what I can see. Thank goodness I have 4x4 if I need it...usually to get out of the way of those that don't!
OK, so one of today's study topics has been 'signals.' I have (so far) two questions:
1. Under that heading, it says, "On Santa Fe, left-hand running was the norm..." Does that mean the engineer sat on the left side of the loco, or am I way off base here? If it was, then they had special locos made for that?
2. It says a red permissive means stop and then proceed; a red absolute means stop and stay stopped!! Doesn't, or at least didn't, this lead to mistakes or do these 2 different systems NEVER appear on the same RR? Actually though, come to think of it, if an engineer traveled onto another adjacent .'foreign' line, couldn't that be a problem? Seems like a nightmare waiting to happen, no?
Thanks again for helping me. Nance
1. Yes, you're way off base; no, they didn't have special locos made. What that term usually means is that when there are 2 or more tracks, a train proceeding in the direction you're looking is on the left-hand track - just like over in England, where they drive on the left-hand side of the road, the opposite of how we do it here. Most railroads in North America with multiple tracks would have the train on the right-hand track(s), viewed in the direction the train is heading, the same as we normally drive on the right-hand side of a 2-lane road.
Actually, i'm a little surprised that would be said about the Santa Fe - I understand from K.P. Harrier and some articles in Trains a few years ago that was done on certain segments, mainly where line relocations occurred which put the new main track on a different alignment on the opposite side of where it would normally be expected or placed - but not as a general or system-wide preference. I believe that occurred in western Arizona and on Cajon Pass, as well as on segments of the UP on Sherman Hill, but not many other places. The traditional 'poster child' for "left-hand running" was some of the C&NW's double-track commuter lines out of Chicago.
2. It probably did lead to mistakes, but the rules for the "Proceed" part are usually at "Restricted Speed" as it's defined on that railroad, perpared to stop short of another train, broken rail, misaligned switch, or other obstruction on the track, etc., so the opportunity for disaster was very small.
Those 2 systems are commonly on the same railroad - the Permissive signals are usually indicated by a number plate or the letter "G" on them for "Grade" to avoid making a struggling train have to stop and restart.
EDIT: However, the 'home' or closest signals at Interlockings/ Control Points are always "Absolute", because passing those could very well lead to a collision - they're often Red for a reason there !
EDIT: It's kind of like the railroad version of "Right-Turn on Red" - you are permittted to do that if safe, but don't go straight thru the intersection on a red light !
The "different signal practices on a foreign line" is how it is, but that's why the engineer has to be qualified and tested on the foreign line's signal rules, too. That issue and the opportunity for a nightmare has been 'beat to death' several times here over the past couple of years . . .
I'll also see what Al Krug and/ or the "ABC's of Railroading" below may have to say about either of these.
P.S. - See those terms in the Glossary of Signal Terms here at:
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Glossary%20of%20railroad%20signal%20terms.aspx
Also, the article on Railroad Signals here, at:
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Railroad%20signals.aspx
After skimming through that article, I now see where your questions originated - so I hope my explanations above were helpful.
Although likely overwhelming to you at this stage, see also the very thorough and detailed explanation of Railroad Signals by AL Krug at:
http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/signals/signals.htm
- PDN.
Nance - While the Eighth Edition has been superceded by the Ninth, you might find the information beginning on page 55 of the NORAC Rules informative (and/or the source of more questions).
While there are differences between railroads, and even between locales (some signal aspects are location specific), you'll find that the information is fairly universal.
[quote user="Paul_D_North_Jr"]
Yes, Paul, I did not think that the segments of the Santa Fé track that have the directions reversed from what you would expect are actually considered left hand running. The UP has such track between Evanston, Wy., and Ogden as well as in other areas; I do not think that Sherman Hill really enters into this, since the segment with two tracks is two track, and not double track; the ten mile longer line that was constructed in the early fifties for westbound traffic only is more or less (to me) a different animal--and I have been up that line on a passenger train, in 1974.
Do (did) not the signals with a "G" also have numbers? As I recall, a passenger train was required to stop and proceed, but a heavy freight was not (at least that was what the 1943 Southern rule book indicated).
Nance, remember a couple of days ago when we were talking about interlockings, or control points? How they were set up so that two trains couldn't be cleared on conflicting or converging routes? Think about it--a system like that couldn't work unless the most restrictive signal meant "stop and stay".
Now, think about a block signal system. It serves two purposes: first, to keep trains separated from each other. Second, to keep trains moving. So if you encounter a red signal that isn't at a control point, they want you to be able to continue moving until you encounter a reason to stop--i.e., another train. You do what the signal tells you to, but the important thing is that you move beyond it at Restricted Speed--the big thing about that is that you are able to stop short of a train, engine, obstruction, or a switch not properly lined.
In fact, nowadays, "stop and proceed" is becoming a thing of the past on many railroads--you encounter a red signal that isn't an interlocking signal, and you proceed at Restricted Speed. It's like the rules have been rewritten to make all of these signals the same as if they'd had a "P" or a "G" on the mast.
As Paul said, the Chicago & North Western was the poster child for left-handed operation, and at one time it was far more than the commuter areas. Nearly any line that had double track territory required trains to keep to the left (unless it was inherited from a predecessor line)--that included the line to Council Bluffs, both lines to Milwaukee, and the line beyond there to the Twin Cities. If you want to see a left-handed rail operation that has nothing whatsoever to do with passenger operation, you need go no further than Chicagoland, where the "freight line" from Proviso around O'Hare to Gurnee is run left-handed--and always has been. Trains of the Canadian Pacific run over this line from Bryn Mawr (by the airport) to Shermer (junction with the Amtrak route to Milwaukee), and they keep left, too.
OK, I'm a little confused bc the article says "permissive have number plate, (possibly 'and/or'?) letter I; absolute have no number plate, letter A." No mention was made of G, P, etc. (Yes, Paul, that's where all this is coming from.)
Oh, on an unrelated note, what does 'CAASCCOCOM' and other variations mean on people's signature lines?
Thanks again, guys.
By golly, Nance, that is what the article on Railroad Signals as linked above does say: [emphasis added - PDN]
"There are two types of signals, permissive and absolute. You can tell if a signal is permissive or absolute by looking at it. The rules vary by railroad, but permissive signals usually have a number plate on the base of the mast on which they're mounted, or the letter "I". Absolute signals do not have the number plate or will have the letter "A". The location of the signal is also often a clue to its type."
I had never before seen a reference to the letter "I" for a permissive signal - perhaps it stands for "Intermediate", which is how the block signals between interlockings/ CP's are referred to on some railroads, and are the only type of signals where a "Stop & Proceed" indication would be acceptable ?
The "G" and "P" can be found in the following from the Glossary of Railroad Signal Terms as also linked above:
Grade signal: A permissive signal used along a steep climb and identified by both a number plate and a plate with the letter "G." The governing rule is usually that a full-tonnage train climbing the grade may pass a grade signal indicating stop without stopping. Grade signals are used to keep heavy trains moving under conditions where the stopping distance is greatly reduced by the hill and restarting would be difficult.
Permissive signal: A signal whose "stop" indication means "stop and proceed at restricted speed." Usually identified by a number plate, some permissive signals also have a plate with the letter "P," indicating that a train may pass the signal indicating stop without stopping but at restricted speed.
Bottom line: Each railroad's signals and current practice may vary from other railroads, and from its own prior practices, over time. It seems that unlike with signals, there are no 'absolutes' here . . .
Thanks, Paul for the assistance, and to the rest of you, too.
Gee, Paul don't act THAT shocked that I was right!
Paul, I'm tackling the 'ABC's of RR'ing' right now and (mostly) when done, I'll dive into the Glossary next. I do cross reference into there now though, as needed for clarity.
Looks like we drew a 'lucky' card in the weather dept today; I think/hope we're gonna miss the worst of the 'partially frozen precip.' I'm thankful, since I need to travel to medical appt. today. Nance
Paul_D_North_Jr Bottom line: Each railroad's signals and current practice may vary from other railroads, and from its own prior practices, over time. It seems that unlike with signals, there are no 'absolutes' here . . . - Paul North.
That "I" is new to me, also. Railroading just doesn't stand still, does it? I wonder, are there so many new employees in road service that they have to be told by such a sign that they are not in absolute signal territory? Gone are the days of apprenticeship served as brakemen and firemen.
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