So, that then, would account for increased fuel consumption on the downhill-- the dynamic braking? That's what I suspected but I'm still a fledgling.
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
"ABS" means Automatic Block Signal system
[repeat 97 more times . . . ] Thanks, guys, that was a real 'brain blip' of some kind !
WMNB4THRTL To make it easier, I thought I'd re-post my earlier questions, if anybody's bored and looking for something to do.(edited bc I have certain answers.) "Tonight's study has been about grades, curves, ties. 1. Re: grades (a. & b. answered already) c. It says that going down grades leads to increased fuel consumption. Don't you save fuel going down hill? Is this something to do with dynamic braking? 2. Curves-- UGH!! I don't have questions bc I don't understand enough of any of it to have any yet!! (I did well in school but Math was NOT my strongest subject, for sure.) Can someone pls simplify this into what is necessary info, on a practical level. Thankfully, I will not be designing or building RR's, etc. I just need a basic understanding. 3. Ties: a. It states that ties are either 8'6" long or 9' long? Anybody know the story with this? Are both sizes common, etc? Adv/disadv, etc? b. Are concrete and wooden ties ever found on the same line/road together, perhaps in different sections, or are they 'mutually exclusive?' Thanks, folks."
"Tonight's study has been about grades, curves, ties.
1. Re: grades
(a. & b. answered already)
c. It says that going down grades leads to increased fuel consumption. Don't you save fuel going down hill? Is this something to do with dynamic braking?
2. Curves-- UGH!! I don't have questions bc I don't understand enough of any of it to have any yet!! (I did well in school but Math was NOT my strongest subject, for sure.) Can someone pls simplify this into what is necessary info, on a practical level. Thankfully, I will not be designing or building RR's, etc. I just need a basic understanding.
3. Ties:
a. It states that ties are either 8'6" long or 9' long? Anybody know the story with this? Are both sizes common, etc? Adv/disadv, etc?
b. Are concrete and wooden ties ever found on the same line/road together, perhaps in different sections, or are they 'mutually exclusive?'
Thanks, folks."
Despite having been somewhat humiliated by the ABS acronym as noted above, I'll take a whack at these, since no one else has in the meantime.
1. c. Fair warning - I'm no expert on this, but here goes: The only thing I can think of is that the engine and generator need to be run faster when the dynamic brake is engaged - up to the 6th throttle position, which I understand is the maximum on some railroads (NS on the East Slope/ Horse Shoe Curve). About a year and a half ago I heard and saw a manned rear-end helper on a long eastbound intermodal train descending that grade there really roaring away with an exhaust plume to match, and that's one explanation that made the most sense. Of course, running those systems at anything above an idle uses more fuel.
You might think that dynamic braking is like coasting or just downshifting your car to let the engine and drive train provide 'passive' braking through the engine compression, but I understand it's more complicated than that. I'm thinking that the field coils of the traction motors first need to be 'excited' by an electrical current in order to develop their retarding force from the armature's rotation by the downhill 'push' of the trailing train, and that excitation comes from the main generator when the diesel-electric transmission system is in effect 'run backwards' this way. And, the more dynamic braking force that's needed or wanted, of course the faster and harder the engine and generator have to run - hence more fuel is used. This is all electrical engineering and power circuits and motors and controls, and it would be helpful for one of the experts here or others more informed than me on that to join in - I'm hoping someoone like Erik will.
Now onto subjects that I'm qualified and experienced in:
2. Curves: I'll address that separately later on, because 3. below got pretty long.
3. Ties.
a. Length: here on the East Coast, 8'-6" ties are pretty nearly universal for ordinary track. I've read that some western roads - UP ? - have used 9'-0" ties, but I've not yet seen a recognizable photo of that. A couple weeks ago I was looking at grade crossing in an ex-SP branch and an 80' length of replacement panel track for it a little southeast of Phoenix, AZ and I didn't notice any difference in the tie lengths, although I was more focused on the rail and fasteners, etc. The 9 ft. length may be common elsewhere, but not in my experience.
The biggest disadvantage with them would be a higher material cost, both because they're longer and hence just have more wood in them, and also because a bigger tree is needed to make them = less ties yielded even from one of those bigger trees, which are a little scarcer and hence more expensive as well. The advantage is that the 9 ft. ties are about 6% longer than the 8'-6" ties = 102", hence the train loads are spread out over at least that much more area of the ballast and subgrade, which reduces the unit load or stress commensurately.
Actually, since most of the support for the rail is from the outer portion of the tie - for an 8'-6" tie, about 21" from the centerline of the rail to the end of the tie - and a commensurate length inside the rail, the benefit would be a little higher. (The middle roughly 18" of the tie [102" - 2 rails x 2 x 21" at each rail, for the inside and outside] should not be carry much load, or else it may become 'center-bound' and risk breaking upwards. Instead, its main function is to hold the 2 opposite outer ends of the tie together and at the proper distance/ gauge, and through the rail anchors, to resist the tendency of the track for longitudinal motion through the ballast from train forces and heat expansion of the rails, etc.) Considering that, a 9 ft. tie would be 3" longer on each end, which would expand the 42" or so (2 x 21") of bearing area for each rail, which is about 7%. However, that extension of the outer support area might also 'mobilize' an 'equal and opposite' another 3" of the middle portion of the tie, which would double that benefit to about a 14% increase in the tie's support area, and a likewise reduction in the unit loads on the subgrade. That might be worthwhile in areas with weak, soft, or wet soils, such as along rivers and the southern coasts, etc. I don't believe the slightly longer length of the 9 ft. ties is a huge hassle for the tie distribution cars or the tie replacement gangs, though, once they're set up for them.
b. Yes, concrete and wooden ties are often found together, just not interspersed or alternating between each other in small numbers. Few railroads can afford to or have chosen to replace all ties in all tracks with concrete ties at the same time over their entire system or even the same region or division, so it's common to see a main track with concrete ties, and sidings with wood ties, and so on. For a while - many years - even Amtrak along its the NorthEast Corridor had 1 or 2 main tracks with concrete ties, and another parallel 1 or 2 main tracks with wood ties.
When concrete ties were first started to be used on a large scale in North America - I beleive it was on the western main lines of CN - they were mainly installed only in the sharper curves of the main tracks, because the wood ties there were becoming 'spike-killed' from the frequent change-outs and replacements of the rail. So the result was tangents and shallow or broader curves with wood ties, alternating with sharper curves with concrete ties. But each section would be several hundred to several thousand feet long at minimum, and preferable several miles to several dozen miles long.
Concrete ties are never installed on a 'spot' basis of 1 or 2 at a time or in a row, with wood ties between them, There can be shorter installations - I've done or seen some as short as 100 yds. or so in special circumstances such as for heat resistance in coal car thaw sheds, chemical resistance in certain facilities, greater track stiffness approaching bridges, etc. - but those are more the exceptions than the general rule, and even there the goal is to be consistent and uniform with the tie type for as long a distance as possible.
The underlying reason is that track with concrete ties is like 2 to 3 times heavier and much stiffer than track with wood ties, so the 'dynamic response' and motion of the track under load and hence the stresses in each element of the track structure - esp. the rails and the subgrade - is much different with each type of tie, and it's not desirable to mix them up to avoid overloads, more stress 'reversals', etc.
Additionally, to properly install concrete ties requires that the subgrade be properly prepared, which usually means excavating the old ballast and some of the sub-ballast or subgrade, and then replacing them with new, clean material. Those operations are best and more economically performed on a large scale over long distances, so 'one tie at a time' is just not cost-effective . And as long as that operation is being set-up anyway, you may as well just go ahead and replace all of the wood ties in that area with concrete ties while you're at it.
- Paul North.
Paul, your explanation on concrete ties did get pretty "ling". Of course, I hope you'll "linger" on the curves as well. I'm learning stuff!
(In my best K.P. Harrier imitation....)
Two new signal bungalows have been unloaded at the site of the crossovers in Lombard. Earlier, this Forumist had surmised that the name of the control point would be "Grace", after the street which bisects the crossovers, but it now appears that the control point (Y019) will be simply named "Lombard". As of now, no further work has been done on the track, with only three of the eight crossover switches installed.
Part B of this post will be available for posting whenever something else exciting happens.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Well, many thanks to you all, again!
Paul, I second what Carl said.
Carl, and I'm glad to hear you say you are learning from my journey through RailRoading 101, if you will. I hope there are others enjoying and benefiting from it, as well-- esp. bc I'm sure there are several of you who have forgotten more than I'll ever know!!
ALLERLEI
1. Mileposts from Branch Jct. to Freeport–I checked and found that they really do seem to be from New Orleans via the old IC main line through Jackson, Tenn. Perhaps this was a holdover from early mergers of the New Orleans, Jackson and Great Northern, which began in New Orleans, and the other roads–though the original IC mainline came down from Freeport to Centralia, and not down from Chicago.
MC, you are quite welcome; I do not know why I bought, several years ago, an IC ETT that had no passenger service, unless it was to give you information.
2. Switch ties–it is much easier to replace a wood switch tie than a concrete switch tie, since (I have been told) that replacement concrete switch ties have to be cast in place so that the holes on each tie will be in the proper places.
3. ABS–Paul, you are forgiven.
4. Nance, we are enjoying sharing our knowledge–and I learned, from you, that more fuel is used when going downhill when dynamic brakes are used.
Johnny
You're all quite welcome - this is a "2-way street", and I get to look at, think about, and write about some topics that I might not have otherwise.
Carl - That was a very good imitation of K.P.'s style. Except for the location, I could not have told the difference. Speaking of which, I wasn't that close to your territory - or most others - last week. The big tin birds were 500 or so miles south and 30+ thousand feet above you, on our way to Phoenix and back via Denver. But that has been on my mind and travel plans - almost worked in Oct. to also meet our daughter in Chi-town, but her travel plans were rearranged and drastically compressed suddenly, so maybe another time . . .
Further on those ancient freight cars I mentioned the other day, this morning at 9:15 AM a post by one "geep39" [not me] showed up with the following summary, on this forum and thread for "Fallen Flags - Lehigh Valley - Allentown branchlines":
http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=LV;action=display;num=1288908817;start=400
"I managed to wander along the Traylor complex a few years ago, and noted a number of ex-RDG class FMn flats which were used in auto frame service before they were retired. Yes, they were cut down from gondola cars by the RDG. There were also some shorter ex-PRR flats that were painted aquamarine and seemed to have red BLW stickers on them, which leads me to believe that they were from the Baldwin Locomotive Works. There were also some CNJ/CRP "three board" gondolas that were used as flats. The LV piggyback flat I also recall. There was at least one very deep gondola of DL&W heritage. There was a flat with roller bearing trucks that looked like it was an MDT mechanical reefer. It seems that all but the RDG flats had been scrapped, unless there are some deep inside the plant somewhere." ["CRP" here most likely means the Central Railroad of Pennsylvania, a subsidiary of the CNJ/ Central Railroad of New Jersey for its Pennsylvania holdings. - PDN]
There is an amazing collection of photos, stories, maps, and descriptions in there, mostly of small-city railroading in the 1960's - 1980's time frame, which is now up to 21 pages/ 400+ posts. For those of us who are interested in such things, that railroad, or that location, etc., it's probably worth a visit - but be sure to allow some time, because it can sure suck you in !
Johnny - What you've heard about installing concrete switch ties is correct - "no 2 are alike", due to the constantly varying angle through the curve, and then the diverging angle and track center spacing through the frog and beyond. It can be and has been done - both here and in Europe - but only on a very pre-planned, thoroughly calculated, and site-specific basis where the entire turnout and all of its ties are replaced, usually as panels. There's no replacing of individal wood ties with concrete ones, nor of dragging a 16 ft. long tie out to a site and cutting or drilling it to fit the need, as can be done today with a wood switch timber.
All, regarding more fuel use on down grades - Here's the entire sentence that I believe led to Nance's question, from the bottom of the 5th paragraph of the article on "Grades and Curves" in the "Railroad Reference - ABC's of railroading" here at:
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Grades%20and%20curves.aspx
"Descending grades carry their own penalties in the form of equipment wear and tear and increased fuel consumption." [Emphasis added - PDN]
The only other basis for that statement I can think of it that to go down a grade, first you have to have gotten to someplace higher, and to do that is what increased the fuel use. But I think that's a strained interpetation, based on the previous answers relating to the dynamic brakes, although those are not mentioned in this article until some 3 paragraphs further on . . .
Unless, it's because of the use of "power braking" techniques, also sometimes known as "Set 'em and drag 'em down the hill", to avoid the risk of a runaway if the brakes are released during a descent. A couple of NTSB reports have addressed that problem, and BaltACD had a good insight here on one of the CSX grades within the past year or so. He said that it was a real danger because there was a flat or level spot in the middle that faced the engineer with a "Hobson's choice" of either leaving the brakes applied and risk having the train come to a stop there and tying up the main line until the retainers could be set, the brake line recharged and released, and then set again, before moving on under braking action by using the locomotives to overcome it; or, release the brakes to get past the flat spot, and then risk a runaway before the same procedure could be completed while on the move down the grade.
Nance - on curves, that article is pretty good, and covers most of what I would have posted anyway. The major point I would add is that curves also increase resistance on down grades, and help to restrain the trains somewhat more than on tangents, whcih also helps with the braking. Is there some particular point that you don't understand ? Otherwise, if you're not a railroad civil or track engineer or surveyor ("mudchicken") who really needs to know and understand all the details, the following pretty well sums it up:
Curves: 1) increase resistance to train movement; 2) usually impose speed restrictions; 3) are hard to see around; 4) sometimes need to be super-elevated ("banking", as on a racetrack) to compensate for their forces; and 5) the sharpness of curves is measured in "Degrees" or "D", which ranges from 0 (straight) to about 23 degrees or so (very sharp) for standard gauge North American operations. Points 2, 4, and 5 are inter-related in that the amount of super-elevation can compensate for the existing curvature and the desired speed to an extent, and that is usually accomplished by using the Degree of curvature as the 'parameter' to see how the speeds and super-elevations interact with each other. Keep in mind that it's real long and hard and expensive to relocate or 'ease' a curve; a little-time-consuming, but usually not too terribly hard or expensive to adjust the amount of super-elevation - either way, more/ higher or less/ lower, as long as you have access to a tamper, surfacing crew, a few hundred tons of ballast stone, and the necessary 'track time' to do it; and pretty easy and inexpensive to just slap on or adjust a speed restriction to reflect either or both of the former.
EDIT (took a while to find a table like this): For example, the little "Table 3-1. Superelevation in Inches." of allowable Speed in MPH vs. Super-elevation ("SE") and Degree of curve at the top of Page 2 of 5 of this PDF file - http://140.194.76.129/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-3-152/c-3.pdf , which I believe is from an Army Training Manual - indicates the following Speeds for various Superelevatons on a 6 Deg. 00 Min. (about 955 ft. radius) curve:
1" SE - 20 MPH; 2" - about 30 MPH; 3" SE - 35 MPH; 4" SE - 40 MPH; 5" SE - 45 MPH
Notice that this is a 'non-linear' relationship or trend - to double the Speed from 20 to 40 MPH requires 4 times as much Super-elevation, from 1" to 4".
Or, for a curve that is half as sharp - 3 Deg. 00 Min. (about 1,910 ft. radius), the same max. Speed of 45 MPH could be attained with only half as much SE - 2-1/2", and 1" of SE would allow a Speed of 30 MPH, etc.
Hope this is helpful.
Dynamic brakes do require that the prime mover be throttled up, and for exactly the reason given - to apply power to the traction motor so that it will become a generator. As I recall, the trottle setting varies - or did, when the same lever controlled either the D/B or the trottle.
Traction motors are not permanent magnet motors (such as are found on most toys, etc). Anyone who remembers the old bicycle generators will remember that you could actually feel a difference when you turned the light on and off while riding. That was a crude form of dynamic braking.
Of course, all that energy has to be dissipated somehow. Electric railroads would put it back into the catenary, where it might help power a train which was drawing power.
On a D/E locomotive, the energy is dissipated as heat via the dynamic brake grid (a big resistor) and the associated fan.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Now friends, not to muddy the tracks here, but in all fairness, I just found this and, since Paul's been so helpful, and such a good sport, too, I just had to come back and post this, found here on Trains site under ABC's of Railroading, Glossary of Railroad Signal Terms:
Absolute-Permissive Block system (APB): An ABS system for single track railroads, configured to automatically provide absolute signal protection between opposing trains on single track and at passing sidings, but allow following trains to proceed governed by permissive signals.
Of course, it also had this:
Automatic Block System (ABS): A series of consecutive blocks governed by block signals, cab signals, or both, actuated by a train or engine, or by certain conditions affecting the use of a block (i.e., an open switch or a broken rail).
However, I just had to help a fella out, ya know?!
There, Paul, as we say in my neck of the woods, 'Don't say I never gave you anything!' And hey, it's only right to help you out after all the help you have been.
PS Thanks Larry, we posted at the same time. BTW, nice mugshot!
Thanks, Nance, - "Fair deal". And Larry, thanks for confirming that.
I think a lot of good learning occurred here over the last few days.
Gotta go batten down some hatches - some 4" - 6" of white stuff coming overnight, and Marie (my wife) has an early class down towards Philly tomorrow, so I believe she's going down tonight to stay with a cousin.
But before I go, a short little animal story: Back in early August, we were 'adopted' by a stray kitten - domestic short-hair mix, "tuxedo" pattern - mostly black, but with a white chest/ bib and paws, etc. - we named him "Phantom' (as in "of the Opera", because of the colors). One of his favorite toys is an acorn from an oak tree - bat it around the hardwood and stone floors and watch it spin and wobble, drop it into the wood bag and then fish it out, carry it around in his mouth, knock it under the furniture until it comes out the other side, play soccer or hockey with it down the hallway, etc. Well, he somehow knocked it through the gaps next to and under the dishwasher, and sat there all forlorn and meowing through dinner, waiting for his toy to come back out. So after dinner I'm down there on the floor for about a hour doing my best imitation of the MayTag repairman, taking apart the 'toeboard' panel, fishing out the acorn, reassembling everything - takes 3 hands, don't you know ? - and then cobbling together a couple pieces of matching cardboard to block the opening from any future such excursions. The things I get involved in . . . . Stay warm, safe, and dry, everyone.
It's amazing what cats can get people to do, ain't it?
Two nice catches today, both I've missed several times in the last couple of months:1) CN 2141, first ex-BNSF C40-8W in CN paint that's in service;
2) IC 2464, the last IC 24xx series locomotive I needed to photograph for my roster;
Off to get dinner goin' for a certain little guy...
Dan
Nice photos!
So, here's today's 'load' so far.
1. (Again from ABC's of Railroading: Glossary of RR Signal Terms:)Approach signal: A fixed signal used in connection with one or more other signals to govern the approach to the other signal or signals. (Also called a "distant signal.")
So it's a signal to tell you you're gonna being encountering a signal??!!
2. re: grade signal--it does talk about a "G" on the post. If I understand correctly, its purpose is to tell you that if you are pulling the grade, then you don't have to stop for a stop signal, correct?
a. If that is right, then how does that work? Could you possibly encounter another train? Or do they figure if you are pulling a grade, you can't be going "too" fast anyway?! Or...?
3. Speaking of speed, is there a way to judge your speed if your loco doesn't have a speedometer? How is that done in this industry? (This drove me NUTS, so I'm very anxious to hear how you guys do it!! Of course, OTOH, there was always the Conductor, who never hesitates to tell you, 'cause you're always either out-running the rabbits or racing with the turtles--just ask him/her!!!)
4. Switching: I know a while back, there was a thread on 'Modern Switching.' So, this might well be called, 'Not-so-modern Switching!' Why on earth does it sometimes take SO many tries to get a good hitch? (I've heard them tell of being up in the double digits!-- Be bald for sure!! The equip. I'm ref. is nearing its centennial--look out Willard Scott!!) Is it due to the age of the equip. or...? I do know some of the time (but not always)it's bc of the way the track lays, i.e. a curve. Slower/faster? Any ideas or is there basically nothing the engineer can do? Does it have anything to do with what the brakeman is/isn't doing?
OK, that's probably enough to take care of for now. BTW, Paul, very cute story! I got a good chuckle out of that one.
WMNB4THRTL Nice photos! So, here's today's 'load' so far. 1. (Again from ABC's of Railroading: Glossary of RR Signal Terms:)Approach signal: A fixed signal used in connection with one or more other signals to govern the approach to the other signal or signals. (Also called a "distant signal.") So it's a signal to tell you you're gonna being encountering a signal??!! Nance, yes. As to its being permanent yellow, I looked in the ABC's of Railroading, but I could not find this. Basically, an Approach Signal tells that you are to approach the next signal prepared to stop. This is one of the aspects of a signal system, and is a steady yellow light, and may also be a semaphore arm at a 45o angle from vertical. In an ABS or CTC system, it is not permanently yellow but is yellow only when the next signal is at stop. Some roads also use a flashing yellow light, which may be called "Advance Approach," and it tells you that the next signal may be set at approach. Some Approach signals are set permanently at approach; such are used especially when a non-signaled (or dark) line has an intersection or junction with another line which has the right-of-way (it is superior) at the intersection or junction. I have seen one at a point at which the then Mississppi Central Railroad approached the IC just above Brookhaven. There is another signal at the junction/intersection, connected to the signal system of the superior line, and its aspect then governed the train of the inferior line. I am not sure, but I think that I saw an Advance Approach on the IC north of the junction/intersection; it was way in the distance, and I could not be sure if it was steady or flashing. 2. re: grade signal--it does talk about a "G" on the post. If I understand correctly, its purpose is to tell you that if you are pulling the grade, then you don't have to stop for a stop signal, correct? Correct, if you have a heavy train which would be difficult to restart on the grade. usually, passenger trains would have to stop. a. If that is right, then how does that work? Could you possibly encounter another train? Or do they figure if you are pulling a grade, you can't be going "too" fast anyway?! Yes. However, if you do encounter another train, somebody has failed in his duty. Or...? I'll let the professionals answer the rest, though I had a little experience in running a locomotive (around a wye) and in switching (if you are coupling on a curve, be sure that the drawbars are turned so the knuckles will meet). 3. Speaking of speed, is there a way to judge your speed if your loco doesn't have a speedometer? How is that done in this industry? (This drove me NUTS, so I'm very anxious to hear how you guys do it!! Of course, OTOH, there was always the Conductor, who never hesitates to tell you, 'cause you're always either out-running the rabbits or racing with the turtles--just ask him/her!!!) 4. Switching: I know a while back, there was a thread on 'Modern Switching.' So, this might well be called, 'Not-so-modern Switching!' Why on earth does it sometimes take SO many tries to get a good hitch? (I've heard them tell of being up in the double digits!-- Be bald for sure!! The equip. I'm ref. is nearing its centennial--look out Willard Scott!!) Is it due to the age of the equip. or...? I do know some of the time (but not always)it's bc of the way the track lays, i.e. a curve. Slower/faster? Any ideas or is there basically nothing the engineer can do? Does it have anything to do with what the brakeman is/isn't doing? OK, that's probably enough to take care of for now. BTW, Paul, very cute story! I got a good chuckle out of that one.
Nance, yes. As to its being permanent yellow, I looked in the ABC's of Railroading, but I could not find this. Basically, an Approach Signal tells that you are to approach the next signal prepared to stop. This is one of the aspects of a signal system, and is a steady yellow light, and may also be a semaphore arm at a 45o angle from vertical. In an ABS or CTC system, it is not permanently yellow but is yellow only when the next signal is at stop. Some roads also use a flashing yellow light, which may be called "Advance Approach," and it tells you that the next signal may be set at approach.
Some Approach signals are set permanently at approach; such are used especially when a non-signaled (or dark) line has an intersection or junction with another line which has the right-of-way (it is superior) at the intersection or junction. I have seen one at a point at which the then Mississppi Central Railroad approached the IC just above Brookhaven. There is another signal at the junction/intersection, connected to the signal system of the superior line, and its aspect then governed the train of the inferior line. I am not sure, but I think that I saw an Advance Approach on the IC north of the junction/intersection; it was way in the distance, and I could not be sure if it was steady or flashing.
Correct, if you have a heavy train which would be difficult to restart on the grade. usually, passenger trains would have to stop.
a. If that is right, then how does that work? Could you possibly encounter another train? Or do they figure if you are pulling a grade, you can't be going "too" fast anyway?! Yes. However, if you do encounter another train, somebody has failed in his duty. Or...?
I'll let the professionals answer the rest, though I had a little experience in running a locomotive (around a wye) and in switching (if you are coupling on a curve, be sure that the drawbars are turned so the knuckles will meet).
1. Yes. More importantly, the Approach signal provides an 'advance warning' of the most adverse indication that the 'Home' signal will be displaying by the time you get there - it may have 'cleared up' and be better, but it won't be any worse than the Approach predicts. (The details depend on whether it's a 3 or 4 aspect system, etc., which might also have an "Advance Approach" indication. [And why does it seem tonight that most signal words start with the letter 'A' ??? ] ) That's because of the very long stopping distances for trains - several thousand feet to a mile or more, as you know by now - and the often more limited visibility or 'sight' distances, which might be only several hundred feet. If there wasn't an Approach signal, you could come rolling around a curve or other obstruction - at say, 40 MPH - to seeing a Home signal and suddenly find it red and have to stop real quickly in a short distance - not a good scene. So if the Approach signal is anything other than 'high green', you have that entire distance to the Home signal to get your train under control and slow way down to like maybe 10 MPH approaching the Home signal anticipating that it might be red and "Prepared to Stop Short" of it, and then being able to actually stop if needed; if not, then just keep rolling on through at whatever the authorized speed is.
This is much different from cars and highways, where the basis of the design theory and practice is that the vehicles can easily stop within the same distance as their operators can see the red traffic signal ahead - usually, several hundred feet. Where that's not true - and there's one only a few miles from here, around a sharp right curve where you'd have no idea a traffic signal was coming up so quickly - PennDOT installed an overhead lighted sign that always reads "SIGNAL AHEAD". then, when the traffic signal controller is about to turn that signal to red, the word "RED" on the top of that sign is lighted up and flashes, until it goes green again. That way, when it reads "RED SIGNAL AHEAD' drivers should expect to encounter that, and have their speeds way down as they go around that curve.
A couple months ago we had a thread here that turned into a discussion of how locomotive engineers drive on highways, and zugmann cracked me up with his comment to the effect that he applies the railroad signal rules = goes right past the yellow light, preparing to stop at the next red one ! That's what an approach signal is for.
2. Yes.
a. See next 2 answers. Yes. Yes. The previous 2 answers about cover it.
3. Depends on the context for speed range and distance. "Seat of your pants experience" is the easy answer and the hard skill.
For main line running, timing how long it takes to run the distance between the mileposts, half- or quarter-mile posts, or even the telegraph poles, was the way to do it - everyone carried or memorized a little wallet card of those times in minutes and seconds and the corresponding speed, and that's where the pocket watches with the second hands were useful.
For much lower speeds and shorter distances, the 'rule of thumb' is that each 1 MPH is about 1.5 ft. per second; thus, 4 MPH is about 6 ft. per second, and 10 MPH is about 15 ft. per second. So to pass a 40 ft. long car at 4 MPH would take 40 / 6 = 6.7 seconds; to pass an 89 ft. car at 10 MPH would take 89 / 15 = 6 seconds. If you go the length of a 33 ft. rail in 5 seconds, you're going 33 / 5 = 6.6 ft. per second, or 6.6 / 1.5 = about 4.4 MPH; if you do that distance in 2 seconds, you're at 11 MPH, and so on.
There are also other 'rules of thumb' like "Count how many cars of X-ft. length go by in Y seconds and divide by Z to get the speed in MPH", but with the proliferation and variety in car lengths these days, that kind of approach doesn't often work so well any more.
4. A real conductor/ brakeman/ trainman type is better qualified to answer that. I'm sure the answer isn't "Hit it again, but harder - HARDER !", though we'll see . . . .
WMNB4THRTL Nice photos! So, here's today's 'load' so far. 1. (Again from ABC's of Railroading: Glossary of RR Signal Terms:)Approach signal: A fixed signal used in connection with one or more other signals to govern the approach to the other signal or signals. (Also called a "distant signal.") So it's a signal to tell you you're gonna being encountering a signal??!!
The other folks have covered this fairly well. The permanent approach signals (the ones that display yellow all the time) are usually in advance of a crossing or something for which a stop is required--a crossing with a stop sign instead of a signal, or a gate that may be set against them, or a drawbridge. You have to pass these knowing that you'll be stopping at the next signal (or sign) practically no matter what.
The thing to keep in mind (not so much you, Nance, as others) is that a "fixed signal" is just one that stays in the same place--not necessarily one that is fixed to a certain aspect. An Approach Signal, or Distant Signal (I'm old-fashioned--I still prefer the latter) is just the signal that comes ahead of the home signal for an interlocking. If your track is in unsignaled territory, it's the first indication that you're coming to a place where you may need to stop to avoid a conflicting movement.
WMNB4THRTL2. re: grade signal--it does talk about a "G" on the post. If I understand correctly, its purpose is to tell you that if you are pulling the grade, then you don't have to stop for a stop signal, correct?
Correct.
WMNB4THRTLa. If that is right, then how does that work? Could you possibly encounter another train? Or do they figure if you are pulling a grade, you can't be going "too" fast anyway?! Or...?
Think about this one a bit. If the signal is red without a "G" marker, what does it say to do? Stop, and proceed at Restricted Speed (at least that's the old definition--the new one makes the "G" marker superfluous). The "G" marker gives you permission to proceed without stopping, but it still has to be at Restricted Speed. And that is defined as a speed at which you can stop short of a train, engine, or obstruction. So yes, you can encounter another train--but no, it had better not be a close encounter!
WMNB4THRTL3. Speaking of speed, is there a way to judge your speed if your loco doesn't have a speedometer? How is that done in this industry? (This drove me NUTS, so I'm very anxious to hear how you guys do it!! Of course, OTOH, there was always the Conductor, who never hesitates to tell you, 'cause you're always either out-running the rabbits or racing with the turtles--just ask him/her!!!)
This has been answered very well by others.
WMNB4THRTL4. Switching: I know a while back, there was a thread on 'Modern Switching.' So, this might well be called, 'Not-so-modern Switching!' Why on earth does it sometimes take SO many tries to get a good hitch? (I've heard them tell of being up in the double digits!-- Be bald for sure!! The equip. I'm ref. is nearing its centennial--look out Willard Scott!!) Is it due to the age of the equip. or...? I do know some of the time (but not always)it's because of the way the track lays, i.e. a curve. Slower/faster? Any ideas or is there basically nothing the engineer can do? Does it have anything to do with what the brakeman is/isn't doing?
The age of the equipment shouldn't matter, as long as there are two functioning couplers and at least one open knuckle. It's usually a combination of factors--track curvature and equipment design. In the latter case it's basically how far away from the truck center pin the coupler is--the further away, the more problems you'll have. If you're trying to make a joint on a curve with two cars with long cushioned underframes, they'll be meeting at an angle, and the coupler won't be able to close. The track is to move the couplers--if car design allows--to a position near the center line of the track, if possible, so they'll be hitting each other more-or-less straight on.
If the car you're trying to tie onto is by itself or part of a cut of cars that's known to be coupled with room to shove, you might be able to carefully shove to a point on the track where the joint is more capable of being made. I was very reluctant to say this, because so many circumstances have to be just right for this possibility to present itself. If you can't get the knuckle butted against the knuckle of the "target" car, forget about it.
If you're making a couple of dozen passes at a joint, you should have given up long ago! Odds are that something else will have to be done--either get help in moving the drawbars, or, if all else fails, use a chain to pull the car to where the joint can be made. Quite often, the problem occurs in trying to tie the engine to a car on a curve--locomotive couplers have very little lateral movement. In most cases, you can grab a car from somewhere else (an adjacent track in the yard, your train if on the main line) and use it to tie onto the recalcitrant car, because its coupler can swing over.
You were right about one thing here--the engineer can't do a thing about it! Unless he's willing to come down and help move a difficult drawbar. Speed of coupling is unlikely to make a difference.
Unfortunately, safety rules these days have made the problem more difficult. If you have to make adjustments to the couplers by going between the cars, you're required to separate them a distance of at least 100 feet (at least on our railroad!). That doesn't help in cases where the couplers have to be lined up precisely.
I think a true Approach or Distant signal as used in the definition Nancy quoted can only be found in dark territory. It's the warning you get that you're approaching a signalled crossing or junction (interlocking) on otherwise signalless track.
In GCOR as UP uses it, a distant signal (the term Carl prefers, me too) marked by a "D" plate, can only give a green, yellow, or double yellow aspect. It's not a block signal that can protect a train, that's why many are at permanently yellow, even if the interlocking is cleared for the approaching train.
When talking about interlockings/control points in ABS or CTC territory, I've also used the term "approach signal" to mean the last signal before the controlled Absolute signal. I've used the term for want of something better, but it's not really a correct usage.
Don't confuse an approach indication (yellow light with or without a semaphore blade at 45 degrees) with an approach/ distant signal as used in the rules.
It depends on what rule book you're looking at as who could pass a red block signal with a number plate and a "G" plate. In more modern times, many rule books changed the signals with the number and G plates to mean a "restricting" instead of a "stop and proceed." Some rule books didn't change it to a restricting, but only allowed heavy tonnage trains (using the RR's own formula to determine it) to pass but everyone else had to stop.
Since most everyone it seems as done away with "stop and proceed" completely and gone to a "restricted proceed" the G plate is really meaningless now. Most everyone can pass a red signal with a number plate at restricted speed.
This brings up that many things in the ABC's of railroading as put out for reference by Trains or Model Railroader for the casual observer or modeller can be out of date or very RR specific. It's useful knowledge, but at times may not be able to be reconciled with current operations on the railroad that runs in your local area.
That's why the forums are an excellent place ot ask questions. A lot of knowledge available, from different areas, and eras.
Jeff
(Who only got out of bed to check the boards. First out on the extra board, with vacancies showing on the pools both ways. Should be called within a couple of hours. Good night)
PDN: On the tie lengths I have an old observation so memory may partially fail me. I would like some help from someone who lives in the bay area.
1. While railfanning the Caltrain route from San Jose to San Fran 10 - 15 years ago I noticed that the rail and ties looked strange. I then noticed some replacement ties that were 6" longer on each side and then understood that the ties were shorter than normal but were placed closer together than I was used to. It appeared that SP had used the shorter ties but CalTarain was spot replacing them with normal length ties.
2. The next day I went from San Jose to Oakland and noticed the same short ties and replacements.
3. Cannot remember the ballast width
4. It would be enlightning if some one from the bay area can confirm that this is still the case or not???
Working with a variety of volunteer engineers of varying skills and outlooks makes for a variety of coupling experiences.
Had an engineer come in so gently one time that the pin wouldn't drop (the lock pin on the coupler). He was proud of his "zero impact" hitch, but then we had to back him out and try it again.
Another engineer, at the end of the spectrum, basically required a "stop" before he hit the coupler as he'd otherwise end up moving the cars - which in our case are usually occupied passenger cars. Ker-CHUNK!
Some couplers are more stubborn than others.
In our case, a 4 MPH hitch is pretty jarring, but you do want a certain amount of force.
We don't usually have to deal with hitching on curves, but I have had to move a coupler over a bit to line them up.
We always make a "safety stop" one car out, about 90', before coming in to couple. If everything looks right (one coupler open, lined up correctly) the rest goes smoothly.
We don't usually go back out 100', but we do call for "three step" before going in between.
Zero
B.S. B.A. M.A. Ph.D
It is really cold outside! (That's four degrees below zero). I'm hoping to be able to stay indoors today.
Paul:
Diningcar and I worked for a railroad that believed in 9 foot ties (and 8 foot, none of that 8'6" stuff!)....Kinda busy now, but will come back and comment later.
Suspect what was seen in terms of tie spacing may be less railroad and more of a CalTrans funding issue.I'd have to know more about "where" on the caoast line. (CalTrans has a handfull of good railroaders and a gaggle of the clueless variety from the rubber-tired side)
Mud
CShaveRR Zero B.S. B.A. M.A. Ph.D
*groan*
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
+1
Could also do it something like this way:
0
Hope it doesn't get any colder out there . . .
You guys really have to limit the word puzzles until after 4pm. Took me 3 times to read and understand Carl's post... OK, so I'm not too quick after work (some would argue that extends to at work as well).
We "warmed" up to -4 from -13 this morning. It's hard to hold the camera steady when you can't feel your fingers on the shutter!
We are now at 0. Yes, it feels warmer...sorta.
I could put a few dental degrees above the zero line now, but I'd have to find a way to make the teeth chatter!
(Sun's bright out there, though!)
Located a series of 17 "missing" auto racks for a fellow researcher today. See, I don't have to go outdoors to accomplish good stuff! However, I might try and remove some ice after the sun's done a little more work.
Hey, Zug, don't feel too bad-- it took me four tries. Then again, I am under the weather today. Ya'll take care and stay warm!
Paul_D_North_Jr 4. A real conductor/ brakeman/ trainman type is better qualified to answer that. I'm sure the answer isn't "Hit it again, but harder - HARDER !", though we'll see . . . . - Paul North.
Oooh.. I'm a real conductor/brakeman/trainman type. Or at least someone tells me I am. Silly them.
I pride myself on easy couplings. But I also have to ride a lot of shove moves. And the last thing you want to have is a hogger that is ticked off after you threw him to the floor and spilled his coffee a few times. Usually you can get the cars to come together nice and easy and have the pins drop. But sometimes you get a pin that doesn't want to drop. The solution? You can try to close the knuckle manually and drop the pin, or you can SLAM 'EM! So yeah, sometimes you do have to hit them harder. It's just metal, and the car shops need work, too..
zugmannI pride myself on easy couplings.
As a relative rookie, I know things aren't always going to go my way. But I got a real confidence booster once when I watched an old-head CSX conductor take five tries to get a good hitch. I don't fault him - I'm sure the couplers in question weren't exactly cooperating and he was about 20 TTX flats from the locomotive.
But it felt kinda good knowing that even those with lots of experience have trouble sometime, too.
Thanks, everybody, as always, for the great help! It's wonderful to have access to all this information.
A few more questions (for now):
1. I just saw something this am re: track grease. Really?! It mentioned it in relation to curves, so it was timely but I've never heard of it.
2. Ballast (from ABC's of Railroading: Ballast):After the passage of about 250 million gross tons (2500 or so good-sized trains), it's time for new rock, which is often simply dumped on top of the old, making the latter part of the sub-ballast, which need not be of as high quality as the top ballast. As the track must be raised each time this is done, this can lead to problems with vertical clearance, road crossings, and (where there is passenger service) station-platform height.
So, my question is: why is it not dug out but just dumped on top of the old? Would it be too much work to dig it all out, I imagine? It seems, as it states, it would cause build-up. I'm confused as to why it's done this way if it causes problems.
3. This is a comment more than a question: (source same as above)While the rock may have plenty of "structural" life left, it may simply be clogged with drainage- impairing debris-nothing a good cleaning won't fix. As with most maintenance-of-way operations, ballast cleaning was at first a manual task; for several decades there have been a variety of rail-borne machines to clean ballast.
I'm SO glad I learned about this bc if they had told me we were going to 'wash' or 'clean' the ballast, I'd have laughed myself silly bc I would have thought they were trying to pull one over on a rookie!! Which, BTW, sounds a bit more likely than what's true!! I mean, honestly, who would think, without knowing the meaning, that you would have to wash rock that is outdoors, sits on top of dirt, at least eventually, and is just gonna get dirty again?! It makes perfect sense after they explain it, but...geezsh!!!
Ya'll have a good day, be careful in this winter weather. I'm feeling a bit better than yesterday.
A ballast cleaning machine in action:
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
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