Johnny -
Thanks for the clarifications on the locations of the UP's apparent Left-Hand running. I was thinking of a photo of a UP gas-electric turbine coming out of a tunnel and then going under a substantial bridge that carried another UP track over top of it, where the caption indicated such. But that long ago, it make have been so then, but changed since ???
Glad you got that attempt at humor, too !
A possible point of confusion: The Absolute signs on the signals are not to indicate to the crews that they are in Absolute Block [signal] System - ABS - territory; instead, it's to indicate that particular signal is an Absolute "Stop and Stay Stopped" signal, in a territory where there might be Permissive signals.
Now that leads to a question I never thought of before: In Absolute Block System territory, can there properly be a Permissive "Stop and then Proceed Slowly" signal and indication ? Or is that wholly inconsistent with the theory and basis of the ABS system's concept ? I don't have time to look it up myself right now, but maybe now that Nance is really digging into this stuff, she might know or could . . .
- Paul North.
I seem to be obsessed with this 'RR learning' thing now, but hey, that can't be all bad, right? This a.m., I've been working on rail, ballast, etc. I think (hope) I have the 'ballast' part down OK, but the 'rail' part has raised some questions:
1. It told about special trains that carry 1/4 mile long segments of CWR from dedicated plants to the job site (paraphrased, not quoted). Then the train is pulled out from under it to unload. Does anyone know of or have pics of one of these? I imagine that is some sight to behold?!
2. How much, in terms of debris, would it take to derail a train? I mean, I know a pebble wouldn't do it, and I'm not asking for exact info, as I'm sure we don't know exactly. I'm looking for a 'practical-type' answer, as in 'if you see a good-sized tree branch across a rail, you'd better get your train stopped before you reach it' type of thing, if that makes sense.
Anyway, gotta get ready to run out for just a bit. Stay warm & safe everybody.
P.S. Paul, looks like we posted at the same time. I'll probably have to see about it when I get back. My guess at this point is, that's gonna be way out of my league.
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
CShaveRR I saw a MERX covered hopper car.
I saw a MERX covered hopper car.
Speaking of interesting covered hoppers, I saw a line of a type that I had not previously seen sitting near the Quaker plant Sunday. They looked so nice I had to stop and take a picture:
Anything special, Carl?
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
Paul, you are/were in my territory? Doggone it, you're supposed to let me know so I can welcome you appropriately! (Missed that, Johnny, but I did hear Mudchicken say something about Paul being around him.)
Nance, I don't know that there are hard-and-fast statements about what's big enough to derail a train. I suspect, though that there may be one: the harder the object and the faster the train, the more likely things will go kitty-whompus (that's an official railroader term, by the way)!
I know that a misplaced retarder beam is good for a derailment, and a coupler knuckle in the wrong place will do it as well.
As for the welded-rail trains, I've seen them unloaded, and that's basically the way it's done--the replacement rail goes outside along the track until it's ready to be installed. I think there was an end-on picture or two of a welded-rail train somewhere on the Forum here recently, along with a question about buffer cars when welded rail is being transported. Mudchicken did a pretty good job then of explaining how the rail was anchored and other such information.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Paul_D_North_Jr Johnny - Thanks for the clarifications on the locations of the UP's apparent Left-Hand running. I was thinking of a photo of a UP gas-electric turbine coming out of a tunnel and then going under a substantial bridge that carried another UP track over top of it, where the caption indicated such. But that long ago, it make have been so then, but changed since ??? Glad you got that attempt at humor, too ! A possible point of confusion: The Absolute signs on the signals are not to indicate to the crews that they are in Absolute Block [signal] System - ABS - territory; instead, it's to indicate that particular signal is an Absolute "Stop and Stay Stopped" signal, in a territory where there might be Permissive signals. Now that leads to a question I never thought of before: In Absolute Block System territory, can there properly be a Permissive "Stop and then Proceed Slowly" signal and indication ? Or is that wholly inconsistent with the theory and basis of the ABS system's concept ? I don't have time to look it up myself right now, but maybe now that Nance is really digging into this stuff, she might know or could . . . - Paul North.
As to the UP's operation east of Ogden, I last saw it about two years ago, and it was still double track, with the tracks not always side by side (the terrain prohibits that), and with one track crossing over the other here and there. As you come out of Ogden US 89, you can see an eb train on what looks to be the wb track (and vice-versa), and this continues a good bit of the way towards Evanston. I doubt that it would be easy to convert this operation to two track, just as the ATSF operation cannot be so converted.
You find the same situation on The Hill (Donner Pass). (Thirty-nine years ago, we were heading for San Francisco on the San Francisco Zephyr as we were taking the train from Ogden to Salt Lake City by way of Oakland and Denver, and I saw the eb train passing overhead at one point as we went down towards Sacramento.)
Johnny
I've always thought that ABS was automatic block signals as well. I know that there was a time when CNW wanted us to regard all of the block signals in toward the city as absolute signals--they just took the number plates off them.
THIS one I think I can help you with! This website's "Railroading Glossary" says, and I quote,
WMNB4THRTLP.S.S. Anyone know the differences between GCOR and NORAC?
I'd have to say that all of the rulebooks are essentially the same, but, of course, the devil is in the details.
I work under NORAC (Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee). CSX has its own rulebook, of which I have a recent copy. I've never really gotten a look at the GCOR book.
In looking through the CSX rulebook, I'm not seeing significant differences in the general stuff - only in the railroad specific stuff (CSX uses the "EC-1" for track authority - NORAC uses the "Form D.").
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Great, thanks Larry!
Tonight's study has been about grades, curves, ties.
1. Re: grades, it talks about helper locos.
a. Does it matter whether they put the helper in front, middle, rear position? Are there adv/disadv for each?
b. It says if helpers are unavail., then they might double or triple the hill. Is that still done today, and if so, where and maybe why? Would that be better (cheaper?) than using a helper?
c. It says that going down grades leads to increased fuel consumption. Don't you save fuel going down hill? Is this something to do with dynamic braking?
2. Curves-- UGH!! I don't have questions bc I don't understand enough of any of it to have any yet!! (I did well in school but Math was NOT my strongest subject, for sure.) Can someone pls simplify this into what is necessary info, on a practical level. Thankfully, I will not be designing or building RR's, etc. I just need a basic understanding.
3. Ties:
a. It states that ties are either 8'6" long or 9' long? Anybody know the story with this? Are both sizes common, etc? Adv/disadv, etc?
b. Are concrete and wooden ties ever found on the same line/road together, perhaps in different sections, or are they mutually exclusive?
Thanks, folks.
You've got some Mudchicken questions there - hopefully he'll chime in.
On helper placement - see the article in Trains a few months ago about 'distributed power.' The only real difference between a helper and a DPU is how it's controlled. Helpers are manned, DPU aren't, since they're run by remote control by the engineer on the lead unit.
That said - pulling and pushing helpers (front and rear) could usually be cut off fairly easily - the exception being trains having cabooses that could not handle being pushed on. Sometimes it was even done 'on the fly' (without stopping). Mid-train helpers necessarily require the train to be stopped to add or remove power, so they would likely be more common if help was needed over a significant portion of the line. Thus if a train only needed help for a relatively short portion of it's trip (ie, one steep hill with the rest of the line comparatively flat), the helper would go on the front or rear.
Front or rear placement was often governed by drawbar forces. The couplers on the head end of the train might not be able to handle pulling the entire train if the helper were at the head end.
On doubling - I've seen fairly recent accounts about doubling/tripling. IIRC it's usually been a shortline. While there were undoubtedly railroads that made it a practice in certain locations it's more likely that it was a matter of not enough power being allocated to the train or more train than usual overwhelming the assigned power.
Helpers cost money - if a line required only occasional help, it might be cheaper to simply double the hill than to call a helper crew.
Doubling a hill requires that there be a place at/over the top of the hill where the locomotive can leave the entire train while it backs down to pick up the remainder - a siding.
Hello all.....
Not much new from the road, have seen a few NS trains in Virginia and West Virginia, but was concentrating on keeping 46,000lb of beer upright and straight in the trailer, while running 65-70mph in a snowstorm on the West Virginia Turnpike. Not an easy task.....
Carl, usually when the roads start getting snow-covered, it's time to find a place to park and let all the idiots run their course, I don't need to be a target for them.....
Playing in traffic near you today, Carl, three stops at grocery warehouses, dropping off cups......
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
I finally got my pictures edited and posted from this weekends (mis)advendures in my neck of the woods. I put up a thread if anyone's bored.
Supposed to start getting colder here soon, just in time for the Packers/Bears NFC Championship Game. Should be a good one!
Dan
Hey Carl, I posted a pic for you yesterday, but I think you missed it due to working up a post of your own.
OK, it seems like this might be embarrassing that I have to ask this, but I do!
Trains' article on horns contains this:
"If you want to see some strange looks, just watch the trackside crowd whenever restored Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 No. 4449 lets loose with the horn instead of the whistle."
I thought the horn was the same as the whistle, just two different names?! Oh, dear!
WMNB4THRTL OK, it seems like this might be embarrassing that I have to ask this, but I do! Trains' article on horns contains this: "If you want to see some strange looks, just watch the trackside crowd whenever restored Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 No. 4449 lets loose with the horn instead of the whistle." I thought the horn was the same as the whistle, just two different names?! Oh, dear!
And, while on the subject of horns and whistles, some roads had quite pleasant sounding whistles, such as those on the N&W J's, and some had those that were not so pleasant sounding, such as those on the N&W A's (that is my opinion of the whistle on an A). And some roads have quite pleasant sounding horns, such as those on Amtrak's engines, and some had horrible sounding horns, such as the peanut whistles on the Georgia Railroad's diesels.
Thanks, Larry for all that good info.
Thanks, Johnny. I guess that's not quite as 'dumb' as I was afraid it could have been/was--esp. since the diesel I'm most familiar with has a 'steam engine' whistle on it. Also, they have a 'peanut' whistle mounted on the caboose. Have a good day everyone.
Brian, you're right--I didn't see that picture until today.
Those covered hoppers are unusual in that they're made of aluminum. Even aluminum covered hoppers aren't too uncommon, but cars like this, intended for the transportation of grain, are. Off the top of my head, I can think of only three fleets: Staley (now Tate & Lyle), Cargill, and these. These CEFX cars used to be owned by Johnstown America (JAIX Leasing, specifically). I checked my records, and don't have the series--either old or new--fleshed out yet, so I can't say much more than that they were in a JAIX 96000 series previously. The "96" in those JAIX numbers suggests the year in which they were built.
Nance, can't wait to hear about your signature!
Poor grandson Nico--never can get what he'd like at a restaurant. Two weeks ago he wanted eggnog at Five Guys; today he wanted edamame at Juicy-O, a basic breakfast/lunch place.
Anyone have an old (pre-1980) Illinois Central employee timetable and can tell me the mileposts and stations between Vandalia & Centralia in Illinois? (website that has it is on the fritz)
CShaveRR Those covered hoppers are unusual in that they're made of aluminum. Even aluminum covered hoppers aren't too uncommon, but cars like this, intended for the transportation of grain, are. Off the top of my head, I can think of only three fleets: Staley (now Tate & Lyle), Cargill, and these. These CEFX cars used to be owned by Johnstown America (JAIX Leasing, specifically). I checked my records, and don't have the series--either old or new--fleshed out yet, so I can't say much more than that they were in a JAIX 96000 series previously. The "96" in those JAIX numbers suggests the year in which they were built.
Actually, they're TCMX- they're much easier to read over on rrpicturearchives than via the link here. It also doesn't help that I used my cell phone to get the photo. The one fully in the center of the shot is TCMX 12489, and the one off to the right is TCMX 12494. Was aluminum used because it's lighter? At any rate, they look pretty cool.
Right, Brian...TCMX. The two reporting marks belong to the same company, and I look up my files on them using "CEFX".
The series for your cars is TCMX 12402-12541, 140 cars. They came from JAIX series 96100-96249 (150 cars). None of the JAIX cars are left, so I haven't gotten a number-to-number correlation figured out.
Yes, aluminum was used to decrease the tare weight of the cars, increasing the load limit, Your typical grain car these days has a capacity of 5200 cubic feet (or a little less, depending on the builder); these cars have 5420.
Good evening! Tonight's a rather light load in the questions dept, I think. (aahhh...)
1. Will someone pls explain MU; DPU; and helpers. I've almost got these down, I think. (My apologies to Larry and the other nice gentleman who recently helped me with MU; I can't find that older post. Sorry.)
2. Are slugs and boosters the same thing, right? Just 2 different names?
3. Carl, or anyone else for that matter, when you talk about these car numbers, do you shoot each one, or just learn to write really, really fast??!!
Anybody looking for something to do, I still have some questions from last night's lesson.Thanks! Take care.
mudchicken Anyone have an old (pre-1980) Illinois Central employee timetable and can tell me the mileposts and stations between Vandalia & Centralia in Illinois? (website that has it is on the fritz)
Vandalia-689.9; Shobonier-683.3; Vernon-678.8; Patoka-675.2; Fairman-670.1; Sandoval-665.6; Glen Ridge-663.3; Branch Jct.-662.0; Centralia-659.6
Branch Jct.-249.9; Centralia-252.2
What would have been the 0.0 MP for the line up to Freeport? New Orleans, via Jackson, Tenn.?
WMNB4THRTL "If you want to see some strange looks, just watch the trackside crowd whenever restored Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 No. 4449 lets loose with the horn instead of the whistle."
Then there was the time I was waiting on SOU RR's Crescent to come by just north of Atlanta and I heard a steam whistle. Nearly wet my pants until I saw it was SOU 6901 leading that had a steam whistle installed and the engineer was having a great time using it. (was in warm weather so I suppose that there was no concern in using up all the boiler water in the 4 E - units ?)
Johnny, it sure seems like New Orleans would be the 0.0 point for this line, and I guess Freeport would be the north end.
Nance, I'll try to tackle your questions now. Keep in mind that these are generalizations.
1. M.U. stands for Multiple Unit. This system, using one large cable and three or four pneumatic hoses running between locomotives, allows all locomotives in a consist to be controlled by one engineer.
DP is distributed power--kind of like M.U., except that there can be more than one consist (two, or three) scattered along the length of the train, all controlled by one engineer. The DP consists don't have to do the same thing as the lead locomotives (in basic M.U., all locomotives do the same thing--or they're supposed to!).
Helpers could, I suppose, be DP units, but they're basically added to a train for a small portion of the run, to assist trains in getting up (and down, with braking help) long or steep grades. These helpers can be on the front or the rear of a train, they can be a single unit or an m.u.ed consist, but they usually have an engineer of their own.
2. Not correct. Slugs have no engines in them, booster units have their own prime movers. Booster, or "B", or "calf" units, have no cabs. Slugs may or may not have cabs, but they lack prime movers (engines) and generators. Both boosters and slugs have traction motors to provide power to their wheels, and they are operated by being m.u.ed to locomotives. More cables are needed to connect to slugs, because they are providing energy from the locomotives' generator. Slugs with cabs can be used to control consists. At times, slugs can also provide additional dynamic braking power, and have also been equipped to provide more fuel to the controlling locomotive.
3. Everybody has his own practice when it comes to dealing with the numbers on cars (or locomotives, for that matter). Yes, I write fast and furious sometime, and a fellow researcher and I have been known to divide responsibility (he looks for one thing, I for another) and compare notes later. Some people seem to photograph car after car in a train. When I'm taking notes on cars, I don't wind up with a complete consist for the train--I just have notes on whatever of interest I can gather about cars in a particular series that's new to me, or needed to break down a series by certain characteristics--lessee, commodity handled, or something like that. But once I have the information I need on a certain car (a TBOX box car for example), that series is done. I can look up the limits of the series, and the cars' dimensions and capacity, on line. There are things I can't look up online unless some other freight-car freak has recorded these cars: builder [and lot number, if possible] and date, paint schemes and variations, prior owners and their numbers--all stuff that would be helpful to a freight car historian. We have certain tricks of the trade to find out some of this information. Most freight cars display some characteristic that helps identify who built them. Former numbers can sometimes be seen under the paint, on the center sills of the cars (where they often forget to paint them out), or even by "scanning" old ACI labels (one of my favorite tricks)! Right now I'm going through literally hundreds of pages of notes, putting them coherently into computer files--stuff that I didn't really have time to do when I was gainfully employed. Now that I'm not working, I'm not gathering as much data and I'm slowly catching up.
Thank you Johnny!
Thanks, Carl; I really appreciate that!
TO make it easier, I thought I'd re-post my earlier questions, if anybody's bored and looking for something to do.(edited bc I have certain answers.)
"Tonight's study has been about grades, curves, ties.
1. Re: grades
(a. & b. answered already)
b. Are concrete and wooden ties ever found on the same line/road together, perhaps in different sections, or are they 'mutually exclusive?'
Thanks, folks."
Make it a good day.
Morning everyone!
I finally got around to processing a couple pictures from Tuesday. It seems that CN's been borrowing the UP power on the Green Bay coal trains lately.
Rear unit of NB train:
Lead unit of NB train:
It's nice to see Armor Yellow & Harbor Mist Grey again...
Nancy,I'm not an expert, but I believe that the concrete/wooden ties are generally not used together. You'll see one or the other because they use different methods to attach them to the rails. What does your signature mean?
I know! I know! (But I'll let Nance answer, if she wants to.)
Dan, are these UP units used in a way that will get them back to Green Bay when their train is ready for them (unloaded)? We used to do that quite a bit with foreign power waiting for its train to be made up and ready to go home. It was a pain in the posterior, but they used some CN road power as a hump set once. It couldn't go over the hump and through the retarders, because the snowplows wouldn't clear the retarders. Quite often I'd see NS power switching in Global 2. CSX stuff didn't seem to get used as often...not sure whether that's a commentary on their condition or just on timing.
I'm not the expert here, Nance, but I believe that dynamic braking requires higher engine r.p.m.s to run the fans that dissipate the heat generated.
Dan's right--you won't see wooden ties and concrete ties mixed, though you might see wooden ties under a switch or other such trackwork in the middle of concrete-tie territory.
I know that curves are a pain, because they increase rolling resistance. If you're climbing a grade and encounter a curve, the grade will be less steep to compensate for the resistance in the curve.
I don't think it's being done too much these days, but sometimes railroads will rebuild the trackage in a certain area just to reduce the curvature. I recall going across Utah over the Rio Grande's main line back in 1988, and could see where the line had been before, and much sharper curves along those old rights-of-way. The land over which we were traveling was relatively flat, and I couldn't really see why they had to use the older route in the first place, but I'm not a Mudchicken.
I got an answer, thanks.
The UP coal train (C701 load & C702 empty) had not left Green Bay yet when I saw the two units on the Push/Pull. It did, however depart within a couple hours of the P/P getting back to GB.
I also believe Carl is right on Dynamic Braking. DB loses effectiveness as train speed trends towards zero and requires the engine to throttle up while braking. Where's Jeff, or Max, or Ed...Zug?...when we need them?
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