Paul_D_North_Jr And completely unrelated: In a nod to a former Trains staffer and author - librarian George H. Drury - I stumbled across a "Drury Lane" about 2 miles south of here in the Westchester area, abutting the south side of another major rail line, just south of W. Roosevelt Rd., about a block east of Westchester Blvd., and on the west side of Gardner Rd. Wonder if he's got 'dibs' on any of the good trainwatching sites there ? - Paul North.
And completely unrelated: In a nod to a former Trains staffer and author - librarian George H. Drury - I stumbled across a "Drury Lane" about 2 miles south of here in the Westchester area, abutting the south side of another major rail line, just south of W. Roosevelt Rd., about a block east of Westchester Blvd., and on the west side of Gardner Rd. Wonder if he's got 'dibs' on any of the good trainwatching sites there ?
- Paul North.
Johnny
I went in for a complete physical today. I'm still in pretty good condition for somebody of my advanced years, but did receive one surprise diagnosis: Tennis Elbow! It's my left elbow...but I'm right-handed and have never played tennis in my life. (Maybe it's really railfan-librarian's elbow--I notice it the most when I'm trying to retrieve or shelve some of my old log-books...which are to the left of, and slightly behind, me as I sit here.)
__________________
Numbering of locomotives and rolling stock is a subject that has been fascinating to me for many years, Nance. I'm pretty sure that railroads don't really want to renumber their locomotives too often, because there is a lot of record-keeping and record-changing involved, not to mention the actual expense of the renumbering materials, new number-boards, new AEI tags, and so on. But every so often, railroads decide that new numbers are a better idea in the long run. The Santa Fe, I think, renumbered absolutely everything in the late 1960s, giving the units new numbers based on builders and types of service. Southern Pacific did the same thing, a little earlier, at the same time incorporating the Cotton Belt's engines into the same renumbering plan.
Mergers can account for either a complete or partial renumbering of units. The C&O's numbering system was pretty much a hodgepodge, especially after the mid-1950s when diesel purchases outpaced the old series fairly quickly. B&O did an interesting flip-flop in the 1950s, renumbering its remaining steam into lower numbers while giving all of its diesels four-digit numbers that were organized by builder, locomotive type, and so on (quite an accomplishment, since B&O had power from everybody who was building locomotives at the time!). So, in 1963, when these two railroads got together, there was a bit of renumbering, but only when necessary to eliminate duplications. Most of the time the B&O system was used for renumbered C&O units.
Norfolk & Western took a different approach, for the most part: when it absorbed the Nickel Plate and Wabash, the three-digit road numbers of NKP units got a "2" in front of them, and those of the Wabash had a "3" in front of them. This wasn't always the case (NKP's only GP35 was numbered above the Wabash units in the 3000s, for example), but for the most part it was easy to figure the origins of N&W units for many, many years.
Pennsy and New York Central began to get ready for Penn Central years before the actual merger took place, renumbering some units as early as 1965 (I remember being surprised that PRR seemingly had ordered enough U25Bs to have them in the 2600 series, but the ones I was seeing were just renumbered out of the 2500s--this was in 1965, two or three years before the merger). Believe it or not, C&O/B&O and Norfolk & Western did the same thing in preparation for their merger...which never took place.
UP has had to renumber units just to keep them in recognizable groupings, and it hasn't always been successful. I'm sure that there are some ex-CNW units that have carried two or more UP numbers already, and I'm not even thinking of the ones that were relettered UPY.
I think BNSF just cobbled the two rosters together as best they could--some number series contained a mixture of ex-BN and ex-ATSF units. Probably a moot point now, as new units have come around there faster than anywhere else, I think.
CSX had a very nice system for locomotive numbers when the railroad was created. If the unit started out with an odd digit, GE built it. Units that started out with even numbers were EMD (the switchers were in the 9000 series originally; the only exception). Low-horsepower units were numbered in different series depending on the number of axles they had; high-horsepower units were numbered in the higher-numbered series the same way. This system came into use a couple of years after the creation of Seaboard System Railroad; by 1986, when Chessie was merged, the "holes" in the SBD numbering system were neatly filled by Chessie units of the proper type! It didn't take long for the system to go out of whack, though--when they decided to number their AC units beginning at 1. And the acquisition of hundreds of ex-Con(rail)s didn't help matters.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Nance - The paint scheme is based on an ALCO C424 we leased for several years. It's headed to CT with its owner.
That scheme was actually something of a "cob job," which used existing paint on the loco along with some new colors. The stripes on the nose were added later - it was a "work in progress" for several years.
I'm actually not sure where the number will go on the finished project, but that might be it. That was one of several mockups I did when we were discussing possible schemes.
I found a picture of the 1845 in its old number, and with a high short hood. Our folks have been researching it pretty well.
As for numbers - they are changed pretty regularly for a variety of reasons. Very often the owning railroad will renumber units in order to make room for a new series of locomotives. That's why UP 844 became 8444 for a while.
The RS-3 we run was built as NYC 8223 and was renumbered at some point to NYC 5223 (or maybe it was PC). It's back as NYC 8223 now.
Usually when two railroads merge the two haven't numbered their motive power (and possibly other rolling stock) by the same scheme, so somebody's locomotives get renumbered. Again, UP is a recent player in that - witness the numerous SP and Cotton Belt locomotive that are/were "patched."
Locomotives that trickle down to shortlines often keep their numbers for sheer economy - why bother to change the number?
Or not. MWHA 642, the "Atomic Train" locomotive (C420, IIRC) carried that number over from BC Rail. It was recently repainted and renumbered as 6042. On the other hand, a number of EL ALCOs acquired by BC Rail kept their numbers, and still keep their EL numbers (in BC Rail green and green) for GVT.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I guess now is a good time for me to ask:
Once a loco is given a certain number, say 1835, does it generally keep that number for it's life, or is a new road apt to renumber it? What would happen if you already had that same number in your roster; how would you pick it's new number? Thanks.
PS Congrats, Larry! That paint scheme is pretty snazzy!! Do you have other units painted like that?
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
tree68 We're getting two, of course, plus some spare parts. One locomotive (1845) is in our shop and is nearly ready for paint (that's a lot of needlescaling!). The other (1835) is reported enroute
We're getting two, of course, plus some spare parts. One locomotive (1845) is in our shop and is nearly ready for paint (that's a lot of needlescaling!). The other (1835) is reported enroute
Larry, I'm not sure if you have seen these pictures of your "new" units back in the day. The 1845 was built as CPR 8747 in 1957, and the 1835 was built as CPR 8780 in 1958. The site cprdieselroster.com has photos of these engines going back to 1962. I will post the links for their RS-18u configuration and you can follow the links from there to the vintage photos.
1845
http://www.cprdieselroster.com/Roster%20Archive/CP%201800B/CP%201845.htm
1835
http://www.cprdieselroster.com/Roster%20Archive/CP%201800B/CP%201835.htm
I like your new avatar.. The button has a motto I've lived by for over 56 years!
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
WMNB4THRTL As I'm studying here, this literally just came to me. How does one use a unit like an E or an F to do switching, even a few passenger cars? Does the engr just rely on his/her ground crew to guide him/her safely, or...?
As I'm studying here, this literally just came to me. How does one use a unit like an E or an F to do switching, even a few passenger cars? Does the engr just rely on his/her ground crew to guide him/her safely, or...?
We just use the mirrors and hand signals.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
CShaveRR [snipped] 3. I finally got a good look at the mainline shift toward the east end of Proviso. A new bridge was built over Mud Creek, and the trackage shifted slightly northward onto it. There is now enough room under the IHB bridge for the third track. There is some major pile-driving taking place in this area, and I'm wondering whether this will be a flyover linking the yard directly to the IHB without involving the main line.
I get this location for it from ACME Mapper 2.0: N 41.89163 W 87.86957
About midway between the Bellwood and Melrose Park commuter stops; bounded on the west by US 12/ US 20/ US 45, on the east by 25th St., on the south by St. Charles Rd., and on the north by Lake St. (FWIW, the USGS Topo map calls the stream "Addison Creek", but i'm not going to argue over that with a local . . . )
Where exactly were the piles being driven ?
Where do you suspect the 'flyover' would tie into the yard ?
Other than the hump and the intermodal area, I'm not familiar with which portions are used for which functions - Arrival, Departure, Holding, etc. - so I don't really have an idea where such a connection would be wanted to go.
Also, there are several connections now from the IHB main to the yard. The IHB line spreads out into 4 tracks just south of its bridge over the UP, and the westernmost 2 of those then curve around to the northwest and tie into the northernmost yard. Is that not a useful connection ? What new functionality would a flyover add which those tracks don't already have - they already don't touch the UP main, either. Or am I missing something ? (Not being argumentative here - just seeking more info from someone who knows the place well, because I know I don't know or understand it well at all . . . )
Larry, I guess that meets the qualifications for being the antithesis of the Warbonnet! I love that paint scheme, complete with the nod to the NYC with the number on the long hood.
I found it:http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/2011/mar11/mar11cn.htm(Tiny plug for me as the first picture in this issue! WOO HOO!)
ADIX 1835 last reported placed in interchange at Buffalo, NY via CN at 2:40 AM on 2/24, per a friend.
Dan
CNW 6000 Sir Tree:Have you guys received your RS-18u yet?
Sir Tree:Have you guys received your RS-18u yet?
They'll looks something like this when painted:
jeffhergertSo no matter what kind of engine, cab unit, hood, or switcher, how hard you hit when making the joint a few cars back kind of depends on the experience of the guy at the joint.
Not to mention how the engineer runs. With some we give five feet at ten, others you have to coax in - "...need another two feet..."
Except when maybe coupling up a single engine (and even then sometimes with the long hood end) you're relying on your condr/brakeman/switchman to be your eyes. So no matter what kind of engine, cab unit, hood, or switcher, how hard you hit when making the joint a few cars back kind of depends on the experience of the guy at the joint. Also, how mad he is at you, if you know what I mean.
Sometimes, if the coupling is made on a slight curve to the engr's side you might be able to watch the cars come together. If the lighting conditions are right, you might be able to watch the shadows as you get close. Still, if it's a ways back it's hard to tell exactly how close you are. You still need that person back there.
Jeff
Good one, Larry. It's funny but it is a bit shy of hi-LARRY-ous!
CShaveRRSometimes it was done with mirrors.
Add a little smoke and it sounds like railroading is magic!
Sometimes it was done with mirrors. At other times, one or the other of the head-end crew would be working with his head well outside the window to catch signals. Otherwise, it's pretty much as Larry says, when the crew is radio-equipped.
I worked as a fireman on an E8 once (or was it an E9, Jim? One of the cab units we got from the UP and numbered into the 500s). As such, I was watching my side of the unit as we backed up from 40th Street to Cal Avenue, and was on the ground to make the joint when we tied onto our coaches (I'm glad I didn't have to make all of the hoses and cables, because I didn't know how). Form there it was easy--the unit was still backing up, but we were in the cab car.
Never had to work an F unit in all of my time in the yard or on various transfer runs.
Yep.
I remember a story in Trains some time back about a Santa Fe crew doing some switching on a local with something like an A-B-B-A set - and possibly even more units than that.
Of course, this was more of a challenge in the days before radio...
This past summer we were stuck with a single F for our local trips. I tell people it's like backing a package delivery truck.... One direction was always a "push" move, with a crew member on the leading end advising the engineer back in the locomotive that the track was clear.
That's OK; I just thought either I was doing something wrong or it was my fairly old computer. Still glad for the references, at any rate.
I still have my fingers crossed for that DVD set that goes back to the beginning of time!!! (What, you mean there was life before trains?! Hhhmmm....?)
P.S. Thanks, Johnny! We posted at the same time.
WMNB4THRTL Thanks, but does anyone know why I can never access these links? Is it bc I didn't subscribe back then?
Thanks, but does anyone know why I can never access these links? Is it bc I didn't subscribe back then?
Nance -
Despite the appearances, they're evidently not 'live" links - at least not after I've "copied and pasted" them here - directly from and just the same as they appear on the Magazine Index's "Search Results" page. Although, at least the Month-Year portion is working enough then to take me to an image of the front cover (only), when I'm into and actively using the Magazine Index's "Advanced Search" function.
Sorry for any confusion and frustration that may have caused you, and anyone else - it's just easier for me to post those references/ citations that way, rather than laboriously retyping them to eliminate that appearance.
rvos1979 Carl, the only ABA set of "true" E9s I'm aware of are usually found in Horicon or Madison on the WSOR, and they do sound good......
Carl, the only ABA set of "true" E9s I'm aware of are usually found in Horicon or Madison on the WSOR, and they do sound good......
Here're the links to some nice photos (none mine) of CB&Q E5A 9911-A "SILVER PILOT", now at the Illinois Railway Museum: http://www.thedieselshop.us/PRSVDemdEs.HTML
If you look carefully at the screened vents - esp. the front and rear ones along the top of the side, and the one just aft of the 'midships' side door - you can see portions of the angled members that are part of the truss which actually forms the frame of and supports this unit - the sides are just a covering, and are not 'structural'.
See also this one http://www.thedieselshop.us/FirstGen.HTML
And: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/3331171661/
I've always been partial to any of the CB&Q's stainless steel E-unit speedsters, and my idea of the best railroad photograph ever is a 'panned' shot of one at speed that appeared in Trains about 20 - 30 years ago - the locomotive is pretty sharp, but everything else is a blur.
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
PDN: Changing your monicker to "Action Jackson (6700)" ???
Nance: Warbonnets Started in 1937 on the EA/E1's (and later morphed onto the passenger F's, Amos & Andy, Alco DL-109/110's, and FM units) all in red/yellow & black on a stainless steel silver background.....Freight Units didn't get the warbonnet (yellow on a blue background, ie "yellow-bonnets") until later on demoted passenger power....This all grew out of the use of the indian headress (warbonnet) of the Chiefs plus the marketing department plastered the Chief logo on everything..
http://www.qstation.org/atsf/wrbnnt.html
http://www.atsfrr.com/index.shtml (Look at the top of the page, that symbol predates the warbonnet painted image on diesel locos by many,many years....Look at EA #1A & 1B [Amos and Andy] in their original 1936 green and blue)
Switch engines, like the last SSB-1200's (later traded to Amtrak) looked a little odd with a warbonnet.
Mud is one of Chico's orphans as is diningcar.
Soggy Feathers in Seattle
You're quite welcome, Nance - it's fun for me, too. In the meantime I recalled this site, which should be helpful: http://www.thedieselshop.us/
and http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataEMDIndex.HTML
In particular, compare the lines of an EMC E3A - it's a "Warbonnet", with the "Indian head" symbol as mentioned previously by others above: http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20E3.HTML
with the EMD F3A: http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20F3.HTML
Note that somewhat contrary to what I posted above, the E6's were the last ones with the 70-degree nose slope - the E7's - http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20E7.HTML - and later units had the 80-degree nose slope, the same as the F-units.
Ah, very good. Thanks Larry, Carl and Paul, as always!! I appreciate all the help. Finally got my last 2 RR books from my recent orders. Hopefully, they are all wonderfully helpful. Take care.
WMNB4THRTL 2. I'm still having a hard time distinguishing between an 'E' and an 'F' unit.
If you have access to the back issues of Trains, look for this essay - I believe it was sub-titled "Ever really watch E-units at speed ?", or similar:
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.