WMNB4THRTL 1. What does it mean when they say A-B or B-B, etc? I'm pretty sure it has to do with a loco's trucks, but...? 2. What is a war bonnet paint scheme? Why is it called that? [snipped]
2. What is a war bonnet paint scheme? Why is it called that? [snipped]
1. I took Nance's question as "A-B" is a carbody cab unit - "A" - connected to a 'booster' unit - "B"; "B-B" would be a pair of the booster units, but that would be seen only around the engine terminal. More common are A-B-A and A-B-B-A combos, esp. leading the Santa Fe's passenger trains.
2. Here's a link to a photo (not mine) of one of those A-B-B-A lash-ups, in the Warbonnet scheme: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=341438
I'm trying to find a photo of a carbody unit without the side sheathing on, which would show the truss frame underneath - but so far, no luck . . .
- Paul North.
I mentioned it here in the lounge a few days back, Jim. Bypass surgery.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR Good news...Mike Yuhas is home from the hospital, building up strength.
Good news...Mike Yuhas is home from the hospital, building up strength.
Unfortunately, there aren't too many opportunities left to hear an E-unit chorus. Two or three of those units, with two prime movers apiece, made for quite a sound when they opened up. The UP's current "E9s" don't count--they have been re-engined, and only one prime mover is under each of those carbodies.
The Metra trip to (and from) Chicago was relatively uneventful, but it gave me a chance to see progress made on our line's upgrading, to wit:
1. All five of the remaining switches for the new control point in Lombard have rails and machines attached to ties, and are ready to go in, whenever.
2. I think I've figured out the locations for where three new signal bridges between Lombard and Elmhurst will go, based on the presence of footing material. In past reports I've mentioned two new bridge locations...that's still true, as the third one discovered today will be replacing an older one, by the Elmhurst stone quarry.
3. I finally got a good look at the mainline shift toward the east end of Proviso. A new bridge was built over Mud Creek, and the trackage shifted slightly northward onto it. There is now enough room under the IHB bridge for the third track. There is some major pile-driving taking place in this area, and I'm wondering whether this will be a flyover linking the yard directly to the IHB without involving the main line.
4. There were leaflets on the Metra coaches announcing that the new "Another Train Warning System" will be activated in March, and our outbound conductor made the announcement over the speaker that March 1 is the day. Since that's also bill-paying day, I may be lingering around the platform somewhere along the line to see if we get lucky. I haven't checked out the new video giving ATWS details yet, but it should be accessible: http://www.metraupwest.com/index.shtml
On the face of it (pun intended), E's and F's are virtually identical, with that bulldog face and all.
A side view reveals all (or at least an awful lot).
For one, E's will be substantially longer than F's. That's because they have two prime movers (engines) to the F's one.
First and foremost, though will be the trucks. F's are B-B, with two four wheel trucks. E's are A1A, with two six wheel trucks. As discussed earlier, only two of the axles are actually powered. The other is just along for the ride.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Hi, ya'll. I have good news, and maybe some not so good.
1. I now own 2 diesel spotter guides, covering 'older' and 'newer' units. (That's the good news!)
2. I'm still having a hard time distinguishing between an 'E' and an 'F' unit. (I know; I know! Put the dunce cap back on, but I'm trying!! ) Thanks!
P.S. SSHHH!! Don't tell, but I, too, agree with the red-not-so-much, blue and green are better, 'camp.'
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
You are forgiven, my child. Recite twenty Safety Firsts, and genuflect in the direction of Kansas City (where Mike Haverty watcheth over the newer warbonnets).
(I'm with you, Jeff. My own color preferences tend toward the cooler end of the spectrum--scarlet and yellow are "warm" colors--so I liked most of the blues used in paint schemes, as well as in-spectrum greens. I really appreciated BN Cascade Green!)
___________________
Pat and I will be out most of the day today--a concert downtown after church--but I couldn't let the day go by without noting that it was forty years ago on this date that I established my seniority with the C&NW, after five days of training and rules classes. My first job was working at the Middle in Proviso--it was a four-man job, and two of the other guys (I can't remember the third) were a Carl for an engineer and a Carlos for a foreman. We built two or three trains that day (I didn't know that that was what I was going--I knew that we were taking cars out of the hump, but I couldn't figure out what we were doing with them!), got a quit, and I was complimented by Carlos on the job I did for my first time out.
CShaveRR 2. The Warbonnet paint scheme is the red and silver (or red and gray) paint scheme (originally with yellow trim, and with a yellow and black logo on the front) that originated on Santa Fe passenger diesel locomotives. They were used at the head of Santa Fe's Chief family of passenger trains (as well as all of the others). It survived to be used by AT&SF's second-generation passenger power, and was resurrected in the 1980s as the paint scheme for AT&SF's newest locomotives. It was carried over for a short time by BNSF to use on locomotives for higher-speed freight trains, but is no longer being applied to new power--survivors look pretty bad nowadays. The lines of this paint job suggest a Native-American headdress to some, and the logo itself is probably based on a Hopi or Navajo design.
2. The Warbonnet paint scheme is the red and silver (or red and gray) paint scheme (originally with yellow trim, and with a yellow and black logo on the front) that originated on Santa Fe passenger diesel locomotives. They were used at the head of Santa Fe's Chief family of passenger trains (as well as all of the others). It survived to be used by AT&SF's second-generation passenger power, and was resurrected in the 1980s as the paint scheme for AT&SF's newest locomotives. It was carried over for a short time by BNSF to use on locomotives for higher-speed freight trains, but is no longer being applied to new power--survivors look pretty bad nowadays. The lines of this paint job suggest a Native-American headdress to some, and the logo itself is probably based on a Hopi or Navajo design.
I have a confession to make. It's kind of heretical among the railfan faithful, but here goes:
I don't like the AT&SF red and silver warbonnet scheme that much, but especially don't care for it on freight engines.
There, I said it. I'm sorry I don't know why, but I prefer the AT&SF blue and yellow, especially before they went to a warbonnet inspired style on their freight engines. Even with the warbonnet stylization I prefer the blue and yellow. Forgive me Andy Sperandeo and any other AT&SF fans out there.
Jeff
(Actually, I think I do know why. As colors go I like blue better than red, although I do like red schemes that have appeared on other railroads. I'm also in the minority among RI fans; I liked the last blue and white scheme they used. I didn't think it was that bad on most engines.)
Don't forget such variations as B-A1A (on some C-Liners), 2+C-C+2 (Pennsy GG1), 2+D-D+2 (Baldwin Centipede), or even 1B+D+D+B1 (Milwaukee Road Bipolar electric).
A variation of locomotive construction that might be confused with carbody, or "covered wagon" designs is the "cowl," which is found on such units as the SDP40F and the F40, among others.
The difference between a carbody and a cowl is structural. With a carbody, the outside covering is part of the structural frame of the locomotive. You can't just lift it off. With a cowl, the outside covering is just that, a covering. The frame of the locomotive is exactly the same as on a hood unit (the usual freight locomotive configuration in the US).
Carl, didn't the Warbonnet scheme also have the head of an Indian wearing a warbonnet on the side? By the way, back then there was no such thing as a "logo;" emblems or heralds were used to identify railroads and many different companies. I wonder if there is some loose etymological connection with the Greek word for word (logos; I would give the Greek lettering if this site could display it; the site is extremely deficient in that matter) and the now common appelation "logo."
Johnny
1. Doubt that you'll be seeing any A-B locomotives anytime soon, Nance! Yes, that's basically the wheel arrangement of diesel locomotives. A "B" truck has two powered axles, so a "B-B" locomotive is your basic four-axle locomotive. Can you figure out a "C-C"? More difficult would be an A1A-A1A locomotive: these have pairs of three-axle trucks, but the middle axle has no traction motor--just helps to spread out the weight. EMD E units had A1A trucks; so did Alco PA and PB units, and RSC units.
3. Yes, carbody=covered wagon. Those are your basic E, F, FA, and PA (and FP and FPA) units, not meant to be used for anything but through service--not easy to work with in yard or other services where switching is required.
OK, thanks.
I have a few more questions.
1. What does it mean when they say A-B or B-B, etc? I'm pretty sure it has to do with a loco's trucks, but...?
2. What is a war bonnet paint scheme? Why is it called that?
3. OK, I know this might be review (sorry) but I still can't figure out these terms like: carbody and covered wagon styles. (Are these two the same?)
Thanks for the help, folks.
As I recall, it's an automatic interlocking, and is first-come, first-serve.
Whoever hits the appropriate circuit first gets the nod.
Which is supposedly why you'll see two trains crossing the diamond, or a train "dragging it's feet," so another train can get in without waiting for opposing traffic.
In auto traffic terms, it's like traffic lights with sensors in the pavement. Hit the sensor and the light changes to your favor (or holds the light against other traffic until you've had a chance to clear).
Hi; does anyone know the traffic control method that controls the intersection shown on the Rochelle Rail Cam? Thanks.
Wow...I have to catch up before I can go back to documenting some SRN box cars' histories (that's tonight's project).
Paul, your rationale for waiting is on the mark. Our ground, however, has softened considerably over the past week (judging from our sump pump!). I'm pretty sure they're watching this. I know that they dug down pretty well on the switches that were already put in, but that was last fall.
Johnny, we had three guides working the tours--we divided the groups into thirds as closely as possible, and when it came time to move, the guides stayed with the groups, so there was less chance that information would be duplicated. We kept the groups moving from room to room without getting in each others' way--that involved one group going outside from one entrance to the other, but it worked.
Larry, Nance lives significantly closer to you than I do!
Great, Larry; thanks! That is a really cool site. I'd heard about it in passing but could not locate the actual website address. Yes, I keep forgetting about the US ones linked from Trains.
As for local, I can hear our local shortline from the house, but they only run about twice a day. Even at that, I have yet to figure out their schedule. Also, there doesn't seem to be a safe, legal spot locally to watch them from. There may be some place, but I haven't located it yet. Maybe warmer weather will help me on that one.
I guess, if all else fails, I could go to the Amtrak track bc they see a lot of freight, etc trains through there, too. My concern there is, with all the security these days, will that draw negative attention? Hhmmm, maybe my buddy who used to live out here can give me some pointers, too.
At any rate, thanks again; I really appreciate the help. Oh, and of course, to Paul, too, for rail creep!
Nance - you can always check out one of the railcams linked from Trains. I kinda like the Netherlands cam - lots of traffic and sound, so you can leave the cam running in the background while you're doing other things and just check it out when you hear the crossing bells...
I don't know where you live, but most of the map sites show tracks, so you should be able to figure out what you can get too. Finding a spot to 'fan' isn't usually hard - just respect private property (including the railroad).
Figuring out how much traffic you might see on a given line can be a real puzzle, though.
Carl, your description of the museum tour reminds me the time during my second year in college that one of the local bakeries was using a new method of preparing the bread dough, and invited people (primarily, their customers) to tour the bakery and see what was being done. The bakery hired several of the students to serve as guides, with the guides working in pairs. One of a pair would start a group through, stopping at each point where something was to be described and moving on after the description was ended. When one of a pair reached the point where the other one of the pair was, the other one would take the group on and out, and start a new group, with the starter staying at the point until his/her partner returned. We did not need a whistleblower, since all the spiels were about the same length.
One day, one of the guides suggested that we all synchronize our watches, and at a certain time we would all yell,"Fire!" Of course, we did not. I wish I had reminded him of that when we met for our fiftieth reunion three years ago.
We had a great time.
Ooohhh......I can't hear you!
I can't hear you!! I'm not looking!
Between you and Dan, well, I just don't know!! Guess I'm gonna have to give up and figure out how to get some of my own railfanning in! I can hear the trains out there but have yet to figure out how to get to them safely and legally! Maybe someday......
I hope they don't call me a "rail creep"!
I just got back from a day's worth of volunteer work at our local pioneer house/museum. They were talking railroad the whole day there, but it was in reference to the Underground Railroad, not the one outside the windows. Darn...I'd brought my little wooden train whistle and everything!
Actually, my job was to blow on the whistle every five minutes during a tour, so the guides (one of which was Pat) would know when to move on to a different room of the house. The tours had to be over in about 15 minutes, because that's how long it took the trolley (again, frustration...only rubber tires ) to ferry a load of students from the house to the next place and bring a new load in.
But my job gave me plenty of time to look out the window and across the street to where the UP was running some real trains! The track forces were at work where the crossovers will be, so we got plenty of horn warning for approaching trains. And I was there for four hours, some of which were pretty decent for action and one of which only had the two regularly-scheduled Metra scoots. But this is a more consistent look at volume than what my occasional brief visits show. Here's the final tally, from 9:30 this morning to 1:30 this afternoon:
1 westbound perishable train.
1 empty coal train, westbound.
2 loaded coal trains, eastbound.
2 stack trains, westbound.
3 stack trains, eastbound
2 manifests, eastbound (one had a lot of combines and tractors; the other was about 80 percent reefers).
1 manifest, westbound.
6 Metra scoots, 3 east and 3 west. The time we were there included the "blank" hours in both directions.
18 trains in 4 hours, or an average of one every 14 minutes or so.
"Rail creep" can cause several different kinds of problems. It's small movements of the rail(s) consistently in the same direction, typically downhill on a grade, or on flatter track, in the direction of prevailing traffic or weight. Where the rail is 'coming from', it can cause pull-aparts at a joint or even a rail break. Where it's 'going to' can result in one or more of: bad alignment and even a 'heat kink' in warmer weather; binding on the separate rails on movable bridges, turntables, car dumpers, weigh scales, and the like; narrow gauge at the Point of Switch of a turnout, esp. if the curved stock rail is being shoved ahead enough so that the 'stock bend' gets significantly closer to the tip of the point such that the stock 'angle' results in the point being displaced more towards the center of the track/ the other rail, etc. There might be other adverse effects that I'm not thinking of right now, esp. for the signals people at switches. On the other hand, rail creep occurs because of unequal stresses in the track, so it does represent an attempt to equalize and spread out those stresses to a new equilibrium - it's just that the new 'state of affairs' (such as a heat kink) is not always desirable . . .
Afternoon, folks. I hope you are all staying safe in this latest storm. I tried to look out the front door but had a hard job trying to push it open for all the snow drifted up against it! UGH!! Spring can't spring soon enough for this chick!!!
I'm currently studying from RR books I managed to acquire. I'm curious about 'rail creep.' I've just recently come across this term for the first time. Does this cause many problems? Thanks.
We didn't seem to be in the "center" of this latest weather that passed by the last 12....But we got enough. I estimate a good 4" of the wet stuff came down here. Ground was bare before. Our's started about 9 oclock last evening.
By radar, it's out of here now and on to the east....Overcast, and even had the sun peek thru several times this morning. About 30 degrees now.
Carl...sorry to hear of the accident and injury of your niece...This Winter has taken it's toll on people and vehicles as well. We wish her a good and speedy recovery.
Quentin
Well, Larry, if our experience helps, you'll be getting plenty of snow...we just got a dusting here. Maybe more will be coming over the weekend.
Just heard last night that one of my nieces was in a serious car accident earlier in the week, on slippery Michigan roads. She suffered a concussion, required some stitches in her head, and her car was totaled. Today will be the first day she attempts to go back to classes at school, and she hasn't worked since the accident (which occurred as she was on her way from school to work).
CShaveRR [snipped] Four switch assemblies are ready by the site of the new crossovers--one more to go and they'll have all of the switches ready for whenever they can get time to take the tracks out of service and move them into place.
CShaveRRWe have weather coming in overnight, and expect to wake up to several inches (up to five) of snow on the ground in the morning.
We have weather coming in overnight, and expect to wake up to several inches (up to five) of snow on the ground in the morning. I got out for a little while today for my volunteer work, and saw two freights each of the two times I was near the tracks.
Four switch assemblies are ready by the site of the new crossovers--one more to go and they'll have all of the switches ready for whenever they can get time to take the tracks out of service and move them into place.
Tomorrow Pat and I are both working at one of the local museums--she as a guide and me for crowd control (bused-in tours--could be several hundred kids there over the course of a few hours). I expect to be somewhere outside (or close to an entrance) for most of the proceedings, but this museum is across the street from the tracks (it's the oldest house in Lombard, and actually predates the railroad, which was the first in the state, arriving at Lombard in 1849).
I honestly don't know why I'm sitting around here with all of those ore trains headed this way. I should be holed up in West Chicago (well, actually, I do know--we had to man the telephones at WFMT this morning and I have a meeting this evening). Still, I'll get to see those ore cars someday!
Dan, some of the first ore cars I ever saw still had logos for the Duluth, Missabe & Northern on them...that merger (to form DM&IR) took place in the late 1940s, if I remember correctly).
As to the new DMIR ore cars, they still have to fit the same old unloading docks at Duluth. So you're stuck with the short length. The CN cars, small as they appear, wouldn't work at the docks in Duluth (they were evidently heightened sometime, probably when conversion was made to taconite pellets instead of raw iron ore). The only way to go to increase capacity on the DMIR cars would be up, which I think would either make the cars unacceptably top-heavy or concentrate an inordinate amount of weight in a short distance. So they're stuck with the short, squat bodies on cars with only a 220K gross rail load instead of 263K or 286K. One thing I thought about is why not make a 48-foot car with two pockets and a higher gross rail load? You'd still, however, be stuck with trucks very close to the ends of the cars (to fit over the dock's chutes), and the higher-capacity trucks have larger wheels and axle spacing, which would make things even more cramped.
About the only way you'll see larger ore cars in that service is to replace the dock with a more modern unloading system (rotary dumpers, conveyor-belt delivery). That expense might be unjustifiable, or the configuration of the yard may not allow it (never been there, but I've heard tales...).
(Dan, I'm pretty sure those ancient ore cars have lost their builder's logos to a repainting somewhere in their 60+ years of existence.)
Just got back from trackside...what a freakin' day! A four-headed manifest, intermodal, an engineering train and not one...two ore trains! Loaded U758 met empty U757 at Stroebe Siding. The U758 had ore jennies that were built in the 40s/50s, in fact the whole train was like that. I looked for a builder's mark but didn't recognize one. These cars are drawbarred together in quads and had the 'double air' hoses mounted higher than the couplers. I did get pictures...but I'm pretty tired so they'll have to wait til tomorrow. For the record (don't look Carl) that's 5 ore trains in 4 days (3 loads & 2 empties).
Dan
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.