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Another black eye for EMD.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Sunday, December 12, 2010 1:03 PM

ED.

     You are right on with your assessment.['I'd say I Hear Ya!', but MACK TRUCK EXHAUSTS  HAVE CAUSED ME TO LOSE MY HEARING.]  But remember. Early air ride seats for th drivers did not happen until the 1960;s. And they were not much more removed from being an apple box on a shock absorber.  Truckers still had medical issues with kidney problems, and back pains, well you know, we've both been there.   Sleeper cabs have come a long way from that box that you had to crawl through the back window glass opening to get into, and the ones that were rightly referred to as "Coffin Sleepers."  An Air Conditioned Cabs are not really that 'new' either (remember the days when ABF and ETMF drivers had air conditioned cabs per their contracts?) THE a/c UNITS WERE IN A CARDBOARD BOX STUCK ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE CAB, BUT 'THEY' -DRIVERS- HAD AIR CONDITIONERS IN THEIR CABS.Grumpy 

  I'm guessing that the evolution of operator comforts in locomotives will be longer and more painfully slow. Seems like the Railroad Industry is marked by a history of fighting each inch and the path is figuratively strewn with bodies and careers. 

  I've not had to work in them so i cannot comment, but I have been in some of UP's Heritage Units and admittedly they were still new and sitting at an idle. There is a lot of room in those cabs, but the operator stations are far less than they could be, if they were more ergonomically designed for comfort of the crew.

           The amenities are certainly lacking ( only a water cooler, and very small refrigerator compartment. The seats do not seem to be designed for comfort( having to spend a maximum shift in them (give or take 16 hrs).  It was amazing to me to read somewhere where a CPR crew could down an engine if their microwave was not working (?). [Might help to explain why one sees on occasion a CPR unit leading BNSF or UP trains.]   As it was pointed out by Bucyrus in the thread on the EMD Locomotives, the isolated cabs were a nod to the excessive levels of engine noise in the cabs and the Isolation was a compromise on only the acoustics, not the physical nature of the locomotive's ride.  Just a fast guess is that to isolate a locomotive to make the ride more comfortable for the crew would at best be a plumbing nightmare. Truck Cabs are a little bit less involved with the engineering utilizing a from hinge and airbag suspension ( as well as, in some cases an air bagged front axle.)

  My guess is that creature comforts for railroad crews are probably a long way off.  The crews will have to beat back the Bean Counters, Lawyers, and Front Office pogues; not to mention getting sympathy from the upper reaces of the Unions.   Seems like the decision makers use discomfort in a job like Frat Brothers in College use Initiations as a rite of passage. 

 

 

 


 

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Posted by edbenton on Sunday, December 12, 2010 12:03 PM

Boy this is were the OTR industry is Way ahead of the RR Industry.  In all OTR truck unless it is a Daycab or Spotter the Trucking equivalant of a Switch Engine we use Air Ride Cabs.  They are fixed to the Front of Cab with Rubber Mounts then in the Rear supported with a Pair Air Bags and damped by Simple Shocks.  So We are Isolated from Road Noise and from some of the Roughest Roads in the Nation.  Then we get Air Ride Seats on top of that.  Noise in a Truck is normally right around 65-70 DB Before we went to Air Ride cabs we were in the area of 90 DB's

Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY.
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Posted by Convicted One on Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:12 AM

edblysard

Just a self depreciating joke that apparently was not very funny!

 

 

Well, you have always impressed me as a voice of reason, even talking me back to sanity a time or two when others found their way under my skin, so this thread is somewhat of a surprise.

Just my two cents but your original reply to Coburn appeared like you were trying to.....well, ... scold him for not being... cut from the right cloth.  Not that any of it is really my business, it's just a shock coming from you...hope you're alright, etc. Umbrella

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Posted by EJE818 on Sunday, December 12, 2010 10:42 AM

They are ok to lead on NS, CSX, UP, etc. The only railroad with the ban on the pre-iso cab ACes leading is BNSF. The rest of the class one railroads are unaffected.

Robby Gragg - EJ&E fan Railpictures photos: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=5292 Flickr photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/24084206@N08/ Youtube videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=EJE665 R-V videos: http://www.rail-videos.net/showvideos.php?userid=5292
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Posted by samfp1943 on Sunday, December 12, 2010 9:47 AM

Bucyrus
It does seem like there is something to this rattling cab reputation.  I see the topic has been discussed on this forum before.  It would be interesting if someone could post some engineering illustrations of how an isolated cab is made and mounted.  If I understand it correctly, the isolated cab is supposed to be quieter and easier riding.  You would think that EMD knows everything about cab design and construction.   So I wonder if the quest for a more comfortable cab has led to over engineering the cab in a way that has made it difficult to manufacture. 
 

I also wonder if putting a cab on cushions or springs might allow that cab to resonate easier to the harmonics of the prime mover.  If so, you would end up with more engine vibration in the cab instead of less.  At the same time, though, the springs or cushions would dampen out shocks and vibrations coming through the locomotive from the track.  If there is a problem, I am sure EMD will fix it, and it will eventually be clearly explained for the historical record as to what went wrong.   

To me it kind of begs the question," If thses units are so problematic, Why not turn them into a "B" unit configuration? One model that springs to mind is the CSX BQ23-7 which towards the end were relegated to unoccupiable cab "B" Unit Status

Photo of CSX 3006B linked here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1140455

 

 

 

 


 

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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, December 12, 2010 4:29 AM

Just a self depreciating joke that apparently was not very funny!

Convicted One

 edblysard:

That's just way to cool!

At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I'm smart!

 

 

 

WOW Ed,

Not trying to start hard times or anything, but when did you get so acerbic? You usually impressed me as a guy who kept his composure. But now it almost looks like you're egging it on?

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Posted by oltmannd on Sunday, December 12, 2010 12:39 AM

Bucyrus
Just thinking out loud:
 
When you isolate a cab from the harsh movement of the frame and equipment, you create high dynamic loading in the fasteners that connect the cab to the frame.  They have to flex as the frame vibrates in relation to the more stationary cab.  The cab remains more stationary because it is isolated from the slamming and banging of the frame, and from the working vibrations of the diesel engine prime mover.  I assume these cabs are isolated by mounting them on springs or spring-like material. 
 

Altogether, it seems like quite a challenge to isolate the locomotive cab.  Maybe they should not try to isolate the whole cab, but rather, isolate the crew seats alone. 

The cabs are mounted on big rubber donuts.  It's done partially for vibration, but primarily for noise.  Most of the motion of the frame is low frequency stuff and that is nearly all transmitted through the rubber donuts to the cab.  Noise is higher frequency, and that all get eaten up by the rubber.   The improvement is dramatic.  An SD60 with a standard cab in good repair will have a noise level in the 87-88 dB range (with the window and doors shut, N8, no horn or bell).  With the rubber flooring and a few other tweaks, the sound dropped below 85dB.  The SD60I was in the 78-79 dB range - if I remember right.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:44 PM

edblysard

That's just way to cool!

At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I'm smart!

 

 

WOW Ed,

Not trying to start hard times or anything, but when did you get so acerbic? You usually impressed me as a guy who kept his composure. But now it almost looks like you're egging it on?

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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:05 PM

.....As one looking in from outside....I really don't see why it would take super engineering to design Locomotive cabs / via proper mounts, to be somewhat isolated from the riggers of the vibrating prime mover and all the running parts on a road of steel rails via steel wheels...

Most bodys of highway vehicles {production}, have properly designed mounts to do much the same thing.  Motor mounts {automotive}, as well.

Quentin

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 11, 2010 8:53 PM

Just thinking out loud:

 

When you isolate a cab from the harsh movement of the frame and equipment, you create high dynamic loading in the fasteners that connect the cab to the frame.  They have to flex as the frame vibrates in relation to the more stationary cab.  The cab remains more stationary because it is isolated from the slamming and banging of the frame, and from the working vibrations of the diesel engine prime mover.  I assume these cabs are isolated by mounting them on springs or spring-like material. 

 

Altogether, it seems like quite a challenge to isolate the locomotive cab.  Maybe they should not try to isolate the whole cab, but rather, isolate the crew seats alone. 

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Posted by edblysard on Saturday, December 11, 2010 6:48 PM

That's just way to cool!

At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I'm smart!

Doublestack

This kinda petty "I'm smarter than you...." crap is the reason I don't come around here much anymore. 

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 11, 2010 6:22 PM

It does seem like there is something to this rattling cab reputation.  I see the topic has been discussed on this forum before.  It would be interesting if someone could post some engineering illustrations of how an isolated cab is made and mounted.  If I understand it correctly, the isolated cab is supposed to be quieter and easier riding.  You would think that EMD knows everything about cab design and construction.   So I wonder if the quest for a more comfortable cab has led to over engineering the cab in a way that has made it difficult to manufacture. 

 

I also wonder if putting a cab on cushions or springs might allow that cab to resonate easier to the harmonics of the prime mover.  If so, you would end up with more engine vibration in the cab instead of less.  At the same time, though, the springs or cushions would dampen out shocks and vibrations coming through the locomotive from the track.  If there is a problem, I am sure EMD will fix it, and it will eventually be clearly explained for the historical record as to what went wrong.   

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Posted by Mookie on Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:56 PM

Sigh

She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw

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Posted by Doublestack on Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:47 PM

This kinda petty "I'm smarter than you...." crap is the reason I don't come around here much anymore. 

Thx, Dblstack
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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:56 PM

From all the railfan rumor boards I read, I only ever saw BNSF as "banning" these clunkers from the lead.  Of course from the notes posted here, BNSF doesn't have too many of them, so it wouldn't cause such an operational headache (as opposed to other railroads that roster quite a few, and they make up a good portion of engines that are cab signal / LSL equipped).

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by coborn35 on Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:01 PM

edblysard

Fantastic...

Had you originally posted the above, followed by a request for others to find out what they know about the restrictions, noting that you had seen this on a few other forums as well, you would have a top notch discussion going, along with guys like Paul North, Zug, me, and a bunch of others researching and contacting their sources/friends in the industry to find out why.

If I see the BNSF trainmaster today, I will ask him what the story is, although he might tell me to screw myself, I called down a friend of his for shoving blind in North Yard and it got pretty heated.

Besides, I cant "eat my heart out"...its too darn cold and I need my heart to keep pumping coffee to the rest of my body.

Good deal, now I know you have enough experience to have a good understanding of railroading, plus you have me by 2 SD70ACEs ridden!.

So, your railroad is not the PTRA, big deal, it's a railroad, and you do stuff we don't, like handle passengers.

You should be proud of your railroad, your job and your performance, too many guys out here simply show up for the paycheck and have no real pride in our history, if you paid them as well they would go roof houses or mow lawns with the same lack of enthusiasm.

I was not attacking you on a personal level, and if I gave that impression, my apologies.

What I was trying to do was make you think about what you post and get you to read your posting from another perspective.

Hoping to get you to start contributing to the forum in a manner that gets the discussions back to trains and railroading, instead of the "I heard from my second cousin that he head from his surfing buddy that...."

So much of that stuff and the political agenda of a small group have pretty much run the real railroaders away from this forum, which is a shame.

Three years ago, there were at least 15 working railroaders here, now....?

Don't sweat the "jerkf" comment, I have pretty thick skin, grew up around Navy non-coms and seamen.

And now that I know who and what you are, if anyone makes a comment about your conductor title in your signature, then they will have to argue with me and a few others first.

Plus, if anyone has a question about your railroad and its history, I now know who to send to too.

See, not so hard after all....

 

 

Water under the bridge good sir.

And btw, it was my mothers second cousin once removed by blood's sisters boyfriends daughters mother.

Mechanical Department  "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."

The Missabe Road: Safety First

 

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:07 AM

Don, I'm still laughing over that one.  That photo is just a week old - Dec. 4, 2010 - and shows NS 2770 - which is within the list above - leading a certain train solo.  I dunno - maybe that one's the exception that proves the rule ?  Stay tuned, I suppose . . .Whistling

ed and coborn35 - kudos to both of you for a good job of regaining control of this thread, which for a while sure seemed headed downhill at runaway speed.  If we're ever able to get together at the same time and place, I'll buy the coffee/ beer/ whatever . . .  Smile, Wink & Grin 

For the record - since it's presently not noted there - it now seems that coborn35 has gone back to his Original Post and edited it to include the above-referenced BNSF General Order in place of the

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by oltmannd on Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:07 AM

coborn35

There you go. Eat your heart out:

On 12-2-10 BNSF issued General Notice 938 which reads in part:
The following "North American Cab" locomotives are not suitable for lead or
(crew) deadhead service:

BNSF 9330-9399
NS 2649-2778
CSXT 4831-4850
UP 8309-8620
KCS 3997-3999
KCS 4030-4315
KCS 8600-8629
MRL 4300-4315
FEC 100-103
CN 8000-8024

Apparently NS thinks their SD70M-2s are OK to lead...http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=347743&nseq=2

I wonder what the issue is?  

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by edblysard on Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:35 AM

Fantastic...

Had you originally posted the above, followed by a request for others to find out what they know about the restrictions, noting that you had seen this on a few other forums as well, you would have a top notch discussion going, along with guys like Paul North, Zug, me, and a bunch of others researching and contacting their sources/friends in the industry to find out why.

If I see the BNSF trainmaster today, I will ask him what the story is, although he might tell me to screw myself, I called down a friend of his for shoving blind in North Yard and it got pretty heated.

Besides, I cant "eat my heart out"...its too darn cold and I need my heart to keep pumping coffee to the rest of my body.

Good deal, now I know you have enough experience to have a good understanding of railroading, plus you have me by 2 SD70ACEs ridden!.

So, your railroad is not the PTRA, big deal, it's a railroad, and you do stuff we don't, like handle passengers.

You should be proud of your railroad, your job and your performance, too many guys out here simply show up for the paycheck and have no real pride in our history, if you paid them as well they would go roof houses or mow lawns with the same lack of enthusiasm.

I was not attacking you on a personal level, and if I gave that impression, my apologies.

What I was trying to do was make you think about what you post and get you to read your posting from another perspective.

Hoping to get you to start contributing to the forum in a manner that gets the discussions back to trains and railroading, instead of the "I heard from my second cousin that he head from his surfing buddy that...."

So much of that stuff and the political agenda of a small group have pretty much run the real railroaders away from this forum, which is a shame.

Three years ago, there were at least 15 working railroaders here, now....?

Don't sweat the "jerkf" comment, I have pretty thick skin, grew up around Navy non-coms and seamen.

And now that I know who and what you are, if anyone makes a comment about your conductor title in your signature, then they will have to argue with me and a few others first.

Plus, if anyone has a question about your railroad and its history, I now know who to send to too.

See, not so hard after all....

 

 

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:10 AM

Just for the record (since everyone else is doing it) - I never had a SD70Ace as a leader.  I think I had a UP one as a trailer one time.  I remember it was brand spanking new and the cab smelled like paint.  The leader was a plain jane UP 70M I believe.

 

I'm starting my 5th year on the RR... still don't know much about anything.  Everything I say is strictly my personal opinion.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by coborn35 on Friday, December 10, 2010 11:33 PM

There you go. Eat your heart out:

On 12-2-10 BNSF issued General Notice 938 which reads in part:
The following "North American Cab" locomotives are not suitable for lead or
(crew) deadhead service:

BNSF 9330-9399
NS 2649-2778
CSXT 4831-4850
UP 8309-8620
KCS 3997-3999
KCS 4030-4315
KCS 8600-8629
MRL 4300-4315
FEC 100-103
CN 8000-8024

Mechanical Department  "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."

The Missabe Road: Safety First

 

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 10, 2010 11:08 PM

edblysard

Because I have never known any Class 1 to give a hoot in a holler about the cormfort or ride quality for road crews...as long as the toiliet flushes, the heater sorta works and the lights all come on they could care less how it rides. 

 

Well, you may not believe it, but one Class one did try. Did we get it all right?  No.  But, not from lack of effort and the guy leading the way in the Mechanical Dept was a former loco engineer.  Conrail did try very hard to get the best possible cab conditions for the crew.  We went hunting for better seats, better toilet compartments, better HVAC, better ergonomics, better controls and displays, lower noise and vibration (who was first with isolated cabs???), better end steps, a more pleasing interior paint, heck, even a cup holder for the coffee cup.- - and passed every change by the general chairmen of the unions.  
Yeah, the desktop controller turned out to be a dud, but it wasn't from lack of trying....
We also spent some serious money ride quality testing every new locomotive model and trying to fix old dogs like B36-7s.  Not everything worked out, but it wasn't from lack of trying.

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Friday, December 10, 2010 10:41 PM

Hmm...

Dan

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Posted by coborn35 on Friday, December 10, 2010 10:25 PM

Well I do take offense to the fact that you were trying to belittle me by saying "oh he only works for a historical society or model RR club, which is not true) I just took your post as making fun of me. I do not take kindly to that. And then you say I make statements which will get kids killed? What the hell?

Conductor/Brakeman/Mechanic

Duluth and North Shore Railway

We handle passenger and freight operations in northern MN.

Sure we aren't the Houston Port Terminal Railroad or the BNSF, but you know what? I am *** proud of the job we do operating our freight and passenger trains over the road safely and efficiently. I may not know as much as Ed does about flat switching, or as much as Zug knows about running a train, but I am always trying to learn more and become a better crew member.

6+ years.

Duluth, MN

SD70ACe's ridden in: 5.

Sorry I just reposted something that is blazing across the internet, thought some people might be interested.

 Not trying to argue or start a fight here, but I felt like your post was very rude and arrogant Ed, which I know you are not. Your a great guy from what I see. I just did not expect to get jumped on like that for a little posting which people do all the time.

 

 

 

Mechanical Department  "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."

The Missabe Road: Safety First

 

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, December 10, 2010 9:29 PM

Oh yea, am I in a modelers club? I wasn't aware. No. I am in a historical society? No. I dont know why you are being such a jerk about this. I never said it was set in stone, I merely said this is what I had heard about the PRE-isolated cab SD70ACe and M-2's.

Well here you go investigator Ed, this is where I got it from: http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19921&p=166450#p166450

Uphogger, I'm trying but...

Ok,

We can start at the bottom and work our way up....

Lets see, another "railfan forum" is your credible source?

That's like claiming your are in prison because you were framed, and your proof being all the other prison inmates say they were framed too!

How about a technical bulletin, or a general order from BNSF, maybe a general notice, something actually issued by the railroad you mentioned, instead of a rumor running on another forum.

No, not investigator Ed, it was CSI Blysard...Child Support Investigator, Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas.

I left there to go railroading.

No, you didn't say it was set in stone, you said it was a black eye for EMD, but you are saying this with no creditable proof, and zero real life experience using the machine in question, yet you imply or present it as if it was a established fact.

The legal folks at EMD may take issue with the way you present this and the title of your post.

"Jerkoff"....hummm, I was expecting much better of you, but then , considering your age and such, well, we will just let your words speak for themselves and for you and you attitude.

 

http://www.missabe.com/cms/, your not the Max Medlin mentioned here?

Ok, if that's not you, fine, my bad...but you do call yourself a conductor, so with what railroad?

My reason for asking is simple.

Just because I used to be in the auto parts industry, (I owned two parts house franchises) and my friends and I own a lot of really fast cars, I don't go around calling myself a NASCAR driver or even a race car driver.

Neither do my friends.

In that context, although I have "heard" that the new Aston Martin DB9 handles badly, because I have never driven a DB9, I will never repeat that statement without that qualification, nor would I present it as an established fact, as you seem to do by implying the SD70ACEs are "rattle traps".

If you haven't ridden in one, how do you know?

(truth be told, I would love the chance to see if the DB9 runs as well as the Vantage V12 Aston produces, I have driven that, it's a rocket with wheels on it).

I have run locomotives, but would never ever call myself an engineer till I have my Federal license in my pocket.

All I ever comment on in that respect is what the engineers I work with tell me, and I make it clear in my posting that the information is second hand, but I also state the source, and establish their statements as an their opinion, not as a "fact"

My problem is that because you present yourself as a conductor/ railroad employee, some of the younger, easily impressed forum members might read some of your broad, ill informed and misleading postings and statement as truth and fact, then in turn either repeat that information as if it were "fact" (having heard it from a "real" railroader), or worse, act upon some of the more ill informed statements and information from your other postings and go out and do something dangerous, possibly injuring themselves or worse.

That would be a sad thing indeed.

Personally, I don't care if you call yourself the Jolly Green Giant, Peter Pan, Captain Hook or Tinkerbelle for that matter, but here, if you are going to present yourself as a conductor, it would go a long way towards establishing your position and creditably if you offered up your "bona fides" so to speak.

My bona fides are...

Current...

Switch Engine Foreman/Switchman

Port Terminal Railroad Association,

North Yard, 7900 Clinton Drive,

Houston Texas.

13+ years service.

Previous.

CSI, Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas.

Promoted to,

Special Projects Investigator, Child Support Enforcement Division,

Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas.

Previous.

Franchise owner operator,

Chief Auto Parts, a Division of Southland Corp,

Seagoville, Dallas Texas.

I liquidated both my stores when Southland sold its retail operations to a Japanese investment firm.

I noticed you have yet to answer the question on how many SD70ACEs, you have ridden, nor have you answered what railroad you work for.

Why?

If your not a railroad employee, but are a employee/member of a historical society, that's cool, I am a member of the NHRS, ride every trip I get the chance to.

Museums and historical societies need enthusiastic, eager people like you to preserve our railroads artifacts, equipment and the history behind all of this industry.

That history and Americas history are intertwined, railroads are a big part of the reason people moved west of the Mississippi.

 

Zug, I realized you were right on about the anglecock, I remember having to just about shove my face into the toilet drain to reach it, and the valve on one unit was mounted on the train line facing in towards the frame, not facing towards the outside, really hard and uncomfortable/awkward to use.

And all three locomotives had their inner doors open, one had it propped open with the broom, the lead unit would shut, but leaked air.

We used the rear unit on the way back in, it stunk like the toilet, the icebox was just that, a box you had to ice instead of a refrigeration unit, and the general up keep on all three was bad, almost as if they were on a bare bone maintenance schedule, just enough to keep them FRA compliant.

Looking back, I get the feeling they were not going to be put up for resale when they were retired, but would head either straight to scrap or be used as trade in.

Overall, not a "bad" locomotive, but not a "good" locomotive either, surely not the quality EMD usually puts out.

Bucyrus,

Its almost like a transient project, a stop gap between what they had designed and wanted to produce and what they could manage to produce at that time.

Coborn, any time you preface a post with "I heard" you reduce the content of the thread to the level of a high school bathroom rumor...along the lines of "I heard Suzie got pregnant" or "I heard Frank was cheating on his algebra test"... or "I heard BNSF wouldn't allow SD70ACEs to run as lead"...

If you want to make a post that is taken seriously, try doing the research, establish a credible source, (read that as not another railroad forum) then quote or link to that source(s).

Then present your finding as an opinion, to gather other forum members opinions and their sources, engage them in civil debate, read and comment on their findings..

That's how you establish a credible, informed and entertaining discussion.

The "I heard" is simply rumor mongering...

Of course, that's assuming you are not simply posting because you enjoy spreading hearsay and rumors.

23 17 46 11

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 10, 2010 2:07 PM

OK.  

You can trade in your SD70M-2 for a vintage B23-7, with the toilet compartment vent right in front of the horn.  Chem toilet with no forced ventilation.  Rusted out cab walls.  Small windows.  Tiny, narrow cab doors that need to be slammed shut (and still leak air and noise.  85dB in run 8 interior noise (if you keep the windows shut).  Two forced air heaters w/o ducting - that have "hi" and "low" setting (and maybe sidewall strip heaters, if you are lucky".  An a control stand so junked up with rattling, bent up, "add on" boxes that make you have to stand up to see the conductor  ('cause you'll never hear his snoring....)   And a carbody guaranteed to get you completely filthy if you try the engineer's side rear walkway past the radiator cab.

Did I miss anything?

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Friday, December 10, 2010 12:40 PM

Of course we also have cabs quiet enough that we can complain about things like squeaking panels. 

 

That says a lot, too.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, December 10, 2010 12:19 PM

edblysard

Three, they came in on a ferterlizer train for Mosaic....they load up and kick pretty good, but stop like a garbage truck...I like the 70M better, it kicks great and stops great.

We took the train out to Mosaic and spotted the plant with them, my engineer did not like how they shoved against a minimum brake set, he said he could not tell when the slack was all bunched in, and they didnt seem to set their independent brakes up as a trio, but each one by itself instead.

We took them back to north yard and stayed on them to finish our switching...they ride ok, but  overall just dont seem to be the quality I expect from EMD.

 

So, Coborn, how many?

And besides the modelers club, / Historical group, what railroad do you work for?

Is it a Class 1, Class 2 or a Class 3?

And lastly, where did you get your information?

Was it a safety bulletin, general order, terminal order, what?

Because I have never known any Class 1 to give a hoot in a holler about the cormfort or ride quality for road crews...as long as the toiliet flushes, the heater sorta works and the lights all come on they could care less how it rides. 

 

 coborn35:

 

 

 edblysard:

And you got this information from what reliable source?

How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in?

 

 

How many have you ridden in Ed?

 

 

      I'm in the same pew with 'Bucyrus', I don't know too much about the EMD or GM locomotives, so I would have to defer to the guy's here, who have the opportunity to actually use the models being discussed, Jeff,  Ed, and Zug have all proved their 'Creds' beyond any doubt. My 2 Cents

    Max (Coburn35), I won't argue with you, 'because I know nothing about the outfit you work for. But the research and resource offered seems to lack a lot for credibility, as it seems to be a a strictly, rail fan resource.

    It seems to me each time we get into a discussion about a specific locomotive type, an element of character assisination seems to creep into the discussion.It then builds with ad hominem attacks. Kinda like a fight with my first wife- The one who yells the loudest wins the point(?).

    As Bucyrus pointed out with his Thread about acoustics. Those kinds of  tests would not necessarily resolve some of the other issues(building/mechanical components) listed. Loose doors, rattling interior trim elements, and ride characteristics close to a loping camel. (Yes, I have ridden one!).

   The ill fitting cab components could be due to an error in the fitting up process,during the construction phase; when the cab was in the welding jig, which would cause errors in alignment, or just less than perfect installation of components during the building/fitting-(just a guess).   This could be exacerbated by 'rough track,' and thousands of miles pounding during regular operations. Then, there might be the damage, and repairs done after any sort of incident. Done quickly as an expedient to getting the locomotive back into Operations.   Again just some random observations.My 2 Cents

 

 

 


 

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,901 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, December 10, 2010 11:19 AM

K. P. Harrier

The over 1400 UP SD70M units are the super rattletraps!

 

I've never had a problem with the SD70m engines.  I know some guys I work with complain more about the rattling noise from cab components on the SD70ACe, and I guess they do a bit more than others.  But I've had GE (desk top controls) that have had some good rattle to them too.

I've also had cab doors pop open, but on both EMD and GE engines.  I've never kept a record of which is worse.  A conductor asked me recently if I noticed some of the EMD engines assembled in Mexico are worse for the rattle issue than others.  I hadn't, he had I guess.  Most of the time it's just a minor annoyance, nothing to get too worked up over.

I would say, it seems if an EMD is going to have issues, they come with them while GE ones seem to age into theirs after a few years.  I don't know if it's design, cheaper components, or cheaper manufacturing processes. 

Jeff 

   

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Friday, December 10, 2010 10:56 AM

Even as a conductor, my gripes with the SD70M-2s are as follows (some of these may be a RR-specific issue, so all may not apply to all roads):

 

1. Angle$1****$2under the frame right near the "poop chute".

2. Toilet system in the area between the interior front cab doors - making it a tight fit when you're trying to carry your grip in.

3. That toilet system always stinks.

4.  Interior car door many times won't shut

5. Terlet room door is cheap plastic and warps easy.  Also won't stay shut at times.

6. Cheap plastic interior that is prone to squeaking and rattling

7. Vertical windows have awful glare - and the big dash area makes it hard to clean the insides of them. 

8. The air vents break easy, and are in annoying spots when they do break. 

9. Too much vibration in the cabs.  (high-pitched whiny vibration)

10. Delayed independent.  Not as much of an issue for the conductor, but it can be a pain those rare times you need to spot something precisely.

11. I don't think the interior lights have a dimmer.  That is real annoying.

12. Exterior doors have a habit of popping open at speed.

-----

Now there are some positives:

1. Big sliding windows are easy to clean.

2. Rear windows are a nice size.

3. When you get 5 or 6 of these beasts together, it is an impressive sight.

---------

 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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