Read this article and you will see that Barrington is still NIMBY when it comes to trains. Yes a train blocked several crossings and the juction with the metra UP/NW line, but it was not the railroads fault. Trains can and do break down and every effort is made to get it moving again. We need to stop this anoying, usless fingure pointing. To read go to http://triblocal.com/barrington/2010/10/19/village-awarded-grant/ and tell me what you think. Thank you.
A relatively short freight train pulls a knuckle and ties up at least two major highways for over two hours (with lots of trucks) plus the Metra line (halting 15 trains) and you think this is only a Barrington NIMBY issue? Just wondering what would be said here if the Metra line (former C&NW line) had been at the crossing in West Chicago with the UP West line, with many freight trains halted/delayed for over two hours?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Freight trains are blocked by passenger operations all the time all over. Most freight guys could also go into the restaurant business since we are such good waiters.
So nothing new.
As far as a broken knuckle. Not really a NIMBY issue, but more of a "that's life" issue. Hard to move a train when you are minus a knuckle.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
But... But... I couldn't get my [insert name of favorite coffee emporium here]!!!!!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
"Freight trains are blocked by passenger operations all the time all over. Most freight guys could also go into the restaurant business since we are such good waiters."
Now, Zug! Can you help the people who can't get to their favorite coffee shops?
Johnny
Sounds like a real problem to me...
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
You really think it is all about snotty suburbanites not wanting railroads? If you do, you are quite ignorant of facts.
1. The routes affected are heavily used by commercial trucks.
2. The freight train runs on what was for its entire history as the EJ&E, a very lightly used transfer line, running steel-related goods from Gary to Joliet to Waukegan, and owned by US Steel since 1901. The change in traffic since CN ownership was dramatic, as the roads houses, etc. were there long before 2009.
My first thought after reading the posts before this one was: how does an engineer break a knuckle on a short train (I base this on my previous observations of the types of trains and the terrain the CN locomotive engineers must content with daily); then I actually read the article and nowhere did I see a mention of the length of train.
As much as I do not care for NIMBYs, I can completely sympathise with the residents who had to deal with the problems caused by thae broken-down freight.
My last thought was: why did it take two hours to replace one knuckle? Even if they were on OT, it still seems excessive.
schlimm You really think it is all about snotty suburbanites not wanting railroads? If you do, you are quite ignorant of facts. 1. The routes affected are heavily used by commercial trucks. 2. The freight train runs on what was for its entire history as the EJ&E, a very lightly used transfer line, running steel-related goods from Gary to Joliet to Waukegan, and owned by US Steel since 1901. The change in traffic since CN ownership was dramatic, as the roads houses, etc. were there long before 2009.
And it sucks when the road I take to the yard is closed because of an accident. But guess what? I suck it up and find another route. These people whining need to grow up. Sometimes the world doesn't revolve around you.
Anyone who has read the article and knows Chicagoland would realize that the complaint is valid.
State Route 14 is a 4 lane highway. A major artery.
The very notion that an at grade crossing was acceptable here for what was to be a major Bypass route is ridiculous. The EIS was WRONG just as is noted in the article.
You can say "well it was an accident, things happen, buck up."
But this is just stupidly poor planning. There is no justification of it. This should have been planned around.
YoHo1975But this is just stupidly poor planning. There is no justification of it. This should have been planned around.
Its kinda hard to plan on having a broken knuckle...know what I mean Vern?
Yeah, seriously. Broken knuckles happen. Pulled drawbars happen. Broken trainlines happen. Broken wheels happen.
It happens all the time, but it mostly happens at locations that don't impact other trains or automobiles. But sometimes it does. What can you do? You usually have to repair it right where it stands, even if it means it blocks roadways. Sucks, but that is life.
What would have happened if there was a major car wreck on that road that blocked it for hours? Oh yeah. people complain, but find another way around. I love how people think "their" roads are so special that they should never be blocked by roads. Please....
So I'll say it again: Grow up and buck up!
YoHo1975 [snip] State Route 14 is a 4 lane highway. A major artery. The very notion that an at grade crossing was acceptable here for what was to be a major Bypass route is ridiculous. [snip]
The very notion that an at grade crossing was acceptable here for what was to be a major Bypass route is ridiculous. [snip]
The grade crossing existed before CN bought the EJ&E. Such an event could have happened anytime, then or now.
The planning failure was the town's or Illinois DOT's, to not have either eliminated the crossing or created a viable alternate route, as this road became the major Bypass route.
As zugmann pointed out, the same could have happened with an auto accident - or one of the many trucks that were apparently stuck in the resulting back-up. Or a fire could have closed the road, or a water main break, etc., etc. This time, the railroad was the 'goat', and justifiably so. But if that's what happened and that's all it took, then perhaps this situation has made the town and/ or the DOT irresponsibly vulnerable to any little disruption in their nice orderly little life. That aspect should be considered as well.
- Paul North.
You could run one train a week on that line and it could get a knuckle right there at the crossing.
Sucks, but hey, that's life.
Typical "professional" railroader responses again. Predictable. Some folksmerely point out how a railroad has caused a disruption, probably its fault, and it's "Sucks, but hey, that's life." No attempt to deal with the facts at hand. How often does a knuckle get pulled on a moving train on flat land. And if so, isn't that avoidable through better maintenance or more careful operation? The EJ&E was a good neighbor in all those communities for years. Low profile, no problems, no complaints, hence no NIMBYism.. The CN takes over and it has been a mess. Grade separations are now need because of the totally different character of the operation. Just curious, but I wonder what would be the reaction here if a tanker truck loaded with gasoline had an engine failure on that crossing 5 seconds before the gates and bells started?
schlimm Typical "professional" railroader responses again. Predictable. Some folksmerely point out how a railroad has caused a disruption, probably its fault, and it's "Sucks, but hey, that's life." No attempt to deal with the facts at hand. How often does a knuckle get pulled on a moving train on flat land. And if so, isn't that avoidable through better maintenance or more careful operation? The EJ&E was a good neighbor in all those communities for years. Low profile, no problems, no complaints, hence no NIMBYism.. The CN takes over and it has been a mess. Grade separations are now need because of the totally different character of the operation. Just curious, but I wonder what would be the reaction here if a tanker truck loaded with gasoline had an engine failure on that crossing 5 seconds before the gates and bells started?
First of all, lose the parenthesis. I am a professional. I get paid to be a railroader, thank you very much.
Ah, schlimm. I look forward to your debates. Knuckles can get broken anywhere. None of the breaks I have seen were 100% new break. That means the knuckle was already considerably weakened, and it just took the right amount of oomph (run in or run out) to finally snap it. Of course it could have been a knuckle pin, different part but same results - you have to replace pieces and parts. And no, you usually can't tell if a knuckle has a crack (or defect) within until it snaps. I mean I guess you could ultrasound it or something, but be realistic. Same with knuckle pins. It can look perfectly normal, but all you can see is the head of the pin. You can't tell if it is broken half an inch below (until the knuckle falls out, that is!)
Did I ever say it wasn't the RR's fault the crossing was blocked? No. But there's not much you can do about it. The train is now in two pieces, and it takes time to get it fixed and back together. In the meantime, cars will have to find another route. Once again, it SUCKS, but that is life.
I'm sure the much revered EJE had it's share of problems that blocked roads. But then, of all its years of operation, how many coincided with internet forums that give any person a chance to scream and yell?
If a gasoline tanker stalled on the crossing? Well.. there would have been a really big boom, probably some flames, lots of smoke, and probably some dead people. But what does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?
I think the point that's trying to be made is that rather than saying that things happen, we should try to make those things less of an issue. Why agree that it's a problem but then make it sound insurmountable? The highway department or CN or a combination thereof should put in an underpass or overpass to alleviate this problem, because things DO happen.
schlimm Typical "professional" railroader responses again. Predictable. Some folksmerely point out how a railroad has caused a disruption, probably its fault, and it's "Sucks, but hey, that's life." No attempt to deal with the facts at hand. How often does a knuckle get pulled on a moving train on flat land. And if so, isn't that avoidable through better maintenance or more careful operation?
Typical "professional" railroader responses again. Predictable. Some folksmerely point out how a railroad has caused a disruption, probably its fault, and it's "Sucks, but hey, that's life." No attempt to deal with the facts at hand. How often does a knuckle get pulled on a moving train on flat land. And if so, isn't that avoidable through better maintenance or more careful operation?
Typical phoamer response.
There is no real way in knowing when a knuckle may break, no matter where the train is running. Sure, you follow best practices in operating the train, but there are times when partial breaks decide to let go.
Can you see it from the surface? Maybe. Unless they are inspected at each and every terminal (talk about dwell time), there is no way of knowing. And that is just for visual clues. Like rail, most times it is what you do not see that fails at the worst time. You would need to ultrasound them to see internal failures.
Most as Zug said, are not 100% new breaks unless someone jerked his train real hard. I have seen drawbars, even entire ends of cars come apart. The latter of course was a combination of poor handling, and old stress damage. But the car in Arlington, NE in 1999 split in half, due to age and steel failures, yet the knuckle and draft gear remained intact.
So do they fail on level ground, of course the do. But you see, someone in the field would know that, and not go off half baked someone's fault, or it's avoidable. Because in many cases, it is not.
Ok, Schlimm,
Here's the chance for you to put your Microsoft where your mouth is...
Instead of simply whining and pointing a finger at the big bad railroad, why don't you explain, in detail, exactly how you would have prevented that knuckle from breaking at that point in time at that location.
Use real world examples and real world current technologies, not some whiz bang laser guided tool that has not been invented yet.
And yes, we all understand you hate CN, for whatever reason, and we understand you don't like railroaders much either, but humor us and show us the better way you implied existed.
23 17 46 11
Knuckles break all the time and cause delays. It is an inevitable fact of life. But the issue in this case is not the breaking of a knuckle. The issue is the delay of two hours. It is that delay time that needs to be explained, and saying it was a broken knuckle does not explain it.
Some comments:
1. Not a "foamer" (and those are quotation marks, not parentheses, Zug). Just someone who has had a life-long interest in railroading.
2. I don't hate CN or dislike railroaders either. I guess any comments that are critical of either the railroads or their employees wound your fragile egos and thus can't be tolerated. Could it be because you railroaders don't like your jobs and employers?
3. Knuckles break or get pulled - obviously. But maybe the technology could be improved? After all, you aren't using whatever brake systems were current when this knuckle coupler design was first used.
4. Bucyrus nailed it. Why did it take two plus hours to fix the problem and get moving?
5. Perhaps the railroads, like the airlines, need to check critical components for metal fatigue with imaging that reveals internal flaws. Sure, it costs time and money, but there is some duty to employees and the public for prevention.
Until you find a way to completely eliminate all forms of slack and slack action, knuckles will break and drawbars will get pulled.
Not knowing the length of the train, you have to determine whether it's a broken air hose or a broken knuckle that caused the problem. Once that's been established, you have to carry the replacement knuckle (not a light item) over uneven footing to a location that might be near the rear of the train, make the changeover, walk back to the locomotive, pump up the air, and go. Two hours does not seem too unreasonable.
Ultrasonic testing of knuckles, knuckle pins, drawbars, etc. may be possible; but I'm not that sure that it's practical.
[quote user="CSSHEGEWISCH"] [snip] Not knowing the length of the train, you have to determine whether it's a broken air hose or a broken knuckle that caused the problem. Once that's been established, you have to carry the replacement knuckle (not a light item) over uneven footing to a location that might be near the rear of the train, make the changeover, walk back to the locomotive, pump up the air, and go. Two hours does not seem too unreasonable. [snip] [/quote]
Yep. Here's how I anticipate it pretty much happened:
1. Train breaks apart and goes into emergency. Crew says favorite unprintable epithets, prays it all stays on the track, and notifies Dispatcher/ Rail Traffic Controller, other trains nearby, and anyone else as required.
2. Conductor gets down, walks train to find apparent source of problem. Note - not carrying anything at this time because he has no idea of what precisely caused the problem. Conductor closes last anglecock valve before break.
3. Conductor returns to loco, tells engineer what it looks like happened, and picks out correct type of coupler knuckle or other part as needed. Meanwhile, engineer pumps up air pressure on front part of train and deals with cops, angry motorists, any media types, etc.
4. Conductor walks back to break, installs new part, radios engineer to 'Back 'em up' and makes the joint, reconnects air hoses, and opens the anglecock to restore air pressure on the rear/ rest of the train.
5. If the air pressure doesn't hold, repeat steps 2. - 4. above until it does. When the air pressure does hold, then what happens next depends on the government and railroad rules, and the crew's judgment - a full airbrake set-and-release test may be required or advisable (a little guidance/ help/ insight from the professional railroaders on this point will be appreciated here). That would necessitate walking the entire train one more time to verify that all brakes have 'set', and yet again for the 'release'.
6. When all is in order, conductor walks back to the front of the train, and radios the DS to that effect. He also deals with the local cops and anyone else with authority tht has showed up in the meantime, such as the Trainmaster or Mech. Dept. personnel, etc., before starting to pull.
In summary, we've got at least 4 trips from the locos to the break-in-two or return, and perhaps 2 complete round-trip walking inspections of the entire train, plus the time to find and repair the break, and to pump up the air again. To accomplish and perform all that, 2 hours seems pretty reasonable to me, too.
schlimm Some comments: 1. Not a "foamer" (and those are quotation marks, not parentheses, Zug). Just someone who has had a life-long interest in railroading. 2. I don't hate CN or dislike railroaders either. I guess any comments that are critical of either the railroads or their employees wound your fragile egos and thus can't be tolerated. Could it be because you railroaders don't like your jobs and employers? 3. Knuckles break or get pulled - obviously. But maybe the technology could be improved? After all, you aren't using whatever brake systems were current when this knuckle coupler design was first used. 4. Bucyrus nailed it. Why did it take two plus hours to fix the problem and get moving? 5. Perhaps the railroads, like the airlines, need to check critical components for metal fatigue with imaging that reveals internal flaws. Sure, it costs time and money, but there is some duty to employees and the public for prevention.
Sorry, it was late when I typed my response. Lose the quotation marks. I consider it a direct insult at me (and other railroaders on here - both paid and volunteer), and it is completely unwarranted. I try to be respectful when I reply to your posts, and I would hope to expect the same courtesy from an educated man like yourself. And my ego is fine, thank you very much. I enjoy my job enough to talk about experiences on this site. If I didn't like my job, I bet I could find other uses for my free time.
Do we even know it was a knuckle? All I read was "coupling problem" (or cuff-link problem). 2 hours seems excessive, but what was the length of the train? I am not qualified on CN rules, but I'm betting an emergency application of the brakes requires an inspection. How much of a bear was the knuckle? How many knuckles have you changed, Schlimm? I've changed quite a few. It can be super easy, or a pain in the rear. Was there assistance from managers and/or car department? And if from the latter, they would have needed to establish blue flag protection before doing anything (I'm guessing, since I have stated before, I am not qualified on the CNR book of rules).
Of course technology can be improved. Have a better idea? Then propose it to the car builders, railroads and owners. If you can find a better way to move freight that won't require me to replace an 80lb knuckle, I'd be all for it.
The knuckle is supposed to be a weak point. It's easier to replace a knuckle then to have to deal with a ripped out drawbar or car ripped in half. With all the forces a car goes through in a course of a day (yard and road operations) you will have to pretty much check them every day. Can it be done? Sure. But is that extra dwell time worth the few knuckles that fail at bad times (like here?) Beats me. I'm not a bean counter.
Two hours may not be an unreasonable amount of time to fix a broken knuckle. However, two hours is not a reasonable amount of time to block a sufficient number of crossings to disable a city’s emergency response system. Considering that we all agree that a broken knuckle is a routine matter, there needs to be a way of fixing it without unreasonably long and widespread disruption to a city. It does not require new technology to do that. It only requires pulling the head end ahead, and maybe pulling the hind end back if they can find a locomotive to do it.
Derailments are not routine, and they can certainly block grade crossings for several days. But even when that happens, the rest of the train is quickly pulled ahead and back in order to unblock all of the crossings not directly affected by the derailment.
Yeah, but when you have a derailment, the schedule has gone to heck. And you need the rest of the cars pulled away so the wreck crews can do their thing.
But a broken knuckle usually is easy to fix right then and there, and the train can continue along it's merry way. Unless there's another crew right there that can slam that broken car on some siding to be addressed later.... of course that depends on which end has the broken knuckle.
Yeah, it sucks the city was blocked, but how long would it take a crew to grab the other cars? (that's if there's another crew you can find..., that's if the track isn't blocked by other trains...) Emergency services should know how to get around blocked crossings. If they can't, well, they better work on their planning.
PS: I love that feeling when you go to pop open a knuckle and it falls to the ground. LOL.
zugmann [snip] PS: I love that feeling when you go to pop open a knuckle and it falls to the ground. LOL.
Because that's better than your foot ?
If the road is that life-critical to the functioning of the town that it can't tolerate a 2-hour closure - from any cause, railroad 'cuff-link' problem or otherwise - then the town also has a problem, and badly needs to find or create alternative routes or methods.
Let me make a couple of updates to your scenario....
.
Paul_D_North_Jr [quote user="CSSHEGEWISCH"] [snip] Not knowing the length of the train, you have to determine whether it's a broken air hose or a broken knuckle that caused the problem. Once that's been established, you have to carry the replacement knuckle (not a light item) over uneven footing to a location that might be near the rear of the train, make the changeover, walk back to the locomotive, pump up the air, and go. Two hours does not seem too unreasonable. [snip]
[quote user="CSSHEGEWISCH"] [snip] Not knowing the length of the train, you have to determine whether it's a broken air hose or a broken knuckle that caused the problem. Once that's been established, you have to carry the replacement knuckle (not a light item) over uneven footing to a location that might be near the rear of the train, make the changeover, walk back to the locomotive, pump up the air, and go. Two hours does not seem too unreasonable. [snip]
Communication between Conductor on the ground and Engineer would be over the radio...not walking back and forth.
Depending on CN rules and whether HAZMAT was in the train....the train must be inspected through the last HAZMAT to make sure all are on the rail. Presuming that the Conductor identifies the broken knuckle as a Type E or Type F, he will instruct the engineer to drop the correct knuckle on the ground next to the engine.
Depending on CN rules and whether HAZMAT was in the train....the train must be inspected through the last HAZMAT to make sure all are on the rail.
Presuming that the Conductor identifies the broken knuckle as a Type E or Type F, he will instruct the engineer to drop the correct knuckle on the ground next to the engine.
Conductor mounts rear car of cut and has engineer pull ahead and stops car he is riding at location of replacement knuckle on the ground. Knuckle is either installed on rear car of cut (if it has the broken knuckle & 3 point protection is established) or placed on the car so the car can carry the 80 pound knuckle back to the other car when the reverse move is made toward the coupling....stopping short of the coupling. The conductor will then get 3 point protection established to permit him to install the replacement knuckle. After the installation of the knuckle the conductor will direct the engineer to back up and couple the train.
5. If the air pressure doesn't hold, repeat steps 2. - 4. above until it does. When the air pressure does hold, then what happens next depends on the government and railroad rules, and the crew's judgment - a full airbrake set-and-release test may be required or advisable (a little guidance/ help/ insight from the professional railroaders on this point will be appreciated here). That would necessitate walking the entire train one more time to verify that all brakes have 'set', and yet again for the 'release'. With the EOT's that are used today, the engineer will know when a complete trainline is established as he will begin to get the trainline air pressure reading from the EOT, presuming that a complete trainline has been established he will then direct the conductor to return to the head end of the train, unless other arrangements have been made (in some cases a Trainmaster or a Carman with a vehicle may transport the conductor to a convenient point in advance of the train, permitting the engineer to move the train to that point much quicker than would have been the case had the conductor walked back to the head end before the train moved.
[/quote]Resolving train initiated mechanical problems is a function of both train length and the complexity of the problem. As a rule of thumb...allow 1 hour per mile of train length for inspection alone, time required to diagnose and fix whatever the problem is, is additional time. Remember, walking conditions along a main track inspecting a train for mechanical defects is not the same as your evening 4 MPH brisk walk around the neighborhood in you athletic shoes on a paved street or sidewalk. Main track ballast, work boots, nighttime with a brakeman's lantern and the need to view the couplings and running gear of each car as you pass requires time, more time than you think.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Uuummm...who said this is a "short train?" In reallity, it was probably one of CN's 10,000 footers. Absolutely hardly anyone noticed the fact that the article NEVER said it was a short train....obviously no one reads very well. The exact statement was... “Since CN announced its plans to purchase the EJ&E, we’ve had no choice but to oppose the deal, as we have pointed out repeatedly to the Surface Transportation Board (STB), and now before the federal court of appeals in Washington DC, that even a relatively short freight train running on the EJ&E has the capacity to block all crossings and the Metra commuter line that runs through the center of the village,” Darch said. The guy NEVER said the train was short. He said it HAD THE CAPACITY to block....READ, guys, READ!!
GN_Fan Uuummm...who said this is a "short train?" In reallity, it was probably one of CN's 10,000 footers. Absolutely hardly anyone noticed the fact that the article NEVER said it was a short train....obviously no one reads very well. The exact statement was... “Since CN announced its plans to purchase the EJ&E, we’ve had no choice but to oppose the deal, as we have pointed out repeatedly to the Surface Transportation Board (STB), and now before the federal court of appeals in Washington DC, that even a relatively short freight train running on the EJ&E has the capacity to block all crossings and the Metra commuter line that runs through the center of the village,” Darch said. The guy NEVER said the train was short. He said it HAD THE CAPACITY to block....READ, guys, READ!!
Who said it was a short train? No one in this thread even said anything about its length. In fact most people have assumed it was a long train based on the amount of time it took to correct the problem. Reference the hour per mile ratio mentioned earlier. I know I assumed as much.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.